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[Ieldra]

clennon8 wrote...
I'm so looking forward to the next installment of that story!  Degrees of Inheritance and Interstitium are hands down the two best Mass Effect fanfics I know of.  Both are waaay better than anything Drew Karpyshyn ever published, that's for sure.

EDIT:  Just to be clear, Interstitium is written by a different author, AssaultSloth.  I mentioned it only because it's the only other ME fanfic I consider to be in the same stratosphere as Elyvern's.  But that's just my opinion, of course.

I have to say working on this with Elyvern made me appreciate the amount of work that goes into a good science fiction story. Our chatlog is more than a million words long, and for instance we spent days and days debating the genetics of Miranda and her family alone and coming up with a solution that would fit the plot, and more than a week on finetuning that flashback with Corwin Leonov in chapter 4 so that it would read like a convincing SF-themed spy operation. Questions arise you usually don't think much about, like "Is it plausible that X knows Y?" and "How can I make X do Y without looking stupid?". A lot of background stuff had to be fixed that never made it into the story just to ensure that the plot comes across as convincing in the end and there aren't any major plot holes. 

"Interstitium" is very well written, but I couldn't quite get into the format - too many POV characters. I recall his Miranda chapter - an extreme interpretation but interesting. I agree that both stories are considerably better than anything Drew Karpyshyn ever published.  

[clennon8]

@Ieldra2:  I certainly appreciate the work you put into helping Elyvern with writing that story.

Regarding Interstitium, the author does switch POV's every chapter, and sometimes within the chapter, but the great thing is that each chapter is pretty much a self-contained story.  And AssaultSloth is SO GOOD with every single characterization he does.

I would highly recommend reading chapter 18.  It's something like 20,000 words long, but it's freaking amazing.  It's Wrex-centric, but also features Miranda fairly prominently.

[Ieldra]

who would know wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Her "the mission comes first" attitude and her willingness to make pragmatic decisions and defend them when challenged is a big part of what attracted me to her. We rarely get women like that who aren't portrayed as villains. Instead there has always been a damnable tendency to portrait a woman as a man's conscience. Miranda appears to break the mould so far, and I am desperate, really desperate that this element will not be not lost to her character in ME3.

I never thought about it that way. It's true, the burden of command and the tactical decisions that come with it are best placed on a leader able to make those calls with her head, not her heart. I'm interested, can you elaborate on the bolded part for me?

What I wanted to say with that bolded part is that when you have a story with a male protagonist and some social or moral conscience is needed, you can bet it's a woman who brings that aspect in rather than the protagonist himself or another male character. Not every single time of course, but often enough that it's usually a safe bet. You find that tendency to portray women as more empathic and conventionally moral even in Mass Effect: we don't have a Renegade woman on the team, as opposed to a Renegade man (Zaeed). Where one appears to exist, you can bet that there will be some character development or character assassination to make her less so.  

The underlying message of course being that women can't be pragmatic when it counts and are ruled by their emotions. Or if they are, it's a mask that covers their "true" nature. One of my most hated stereotypes. To see Miranda fall victim to it at the CB, that makes me feel betrayed.

@clennon8:
It's fun, really. Most of the time, anyway, except when there's some fundamental disagreement and I have to back down because she's the writer, LOL. For the true revelation of what it's all about I guess you'll have to wait until December. Chapter 6 and 7 will be 30k+ each and C6 at least will be published in two parts. I'll have a look at that chapter 18 of "Interstitium"

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 septembre 2011 - 10:35 .

[Sebby]

Yeah, one of my biggest gripes with the Collector base situation is that there isn't a single female squadmate who endorses keeping it. Miranda not advising to keep it and becoming victim to Shepard's magic charisma really hurt the character. I suppose we could have at least had Morinth for that but unfortunately she ends up becoming a half-assed Samara clone.

[Melra]

Oh poor you...

[clennon8]

IIRC, Legion is the only member in the whole squad who suggests keeping the CB.

As I alluded to before, I think it's perfectly okay for Miranda to advise against keeping the CB, I just don't like the reason she gave. She should have said something like "I no longer trust The Illusive Man to use it in mankind's best interest." That would have fixed the whole thing for me.

[naledgeborn]

clennon8 wrote...

IIRC, Legion is the only member in the whole squad who suggests keeping the CB..

So does Garrus, Mordin, and Zaeed.

[Sebby]

naledgeborn wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

IIRC, Legion is the only member in the whole squad who suggests keeping the CB..

So does Garrus, Mordin, and Zaeed.

And Grunt.

Garrus: I don't know, Shepard. What happened here was horrible, but we have to stop the Reapers. If we destroy this base, then all these people died for nothing.
Grunt: He's right. When your enemy gives you a weapon, you use it. You might not get another chance.
Jack: Seriously? Shepard, he's a user - just like Collectors.
Jacob: It's better because we'll do it? Shepard, this is way over the line.
Kasumi: Shep, he's talking about doing it all again. How will that help anything?
Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.
Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand - using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.
Mordin: Hmm... Agreed. Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity.
Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.
Tali: Shepard, we fought to stop it. Us using it doesn't make it right.
Thane: Shepard/Siha, I've made a life of killing those who deserve to die. We must struggle to not become what we hate.
Zaeed: Someone gives you a weapon, you don't complain that it's dirty - you use it.

[naledgeborn]

I don't mind that Miranda was for destroying the base. I mind that she wasn't pissed off about it. It would've been a moment of "character growth" instead of "character assassination".

[clennon8]

Huh. But then they all change their tune on the Normandy afterwards, don't they?

[Sebby]

clennon8 wrote...

Huh. But then they all change their tune on the Normandy afterwards, don't they?

Yep and it's one of the biggest issues with the Renegade path in ME2. My gut feeling is that it's a clumsy way of the writers saying "Renegade you ****ed up!".

[naledgeborn]

To be fair, I'm sure Grunt was just excited about the explosion.

[American Tradegy]

naledgeborn wrote...

To be fair, I'm sure Grunt was just excited about the explosion.

Main reason why he approves of Paragon path
but he also expresses doupts if you go renegade and keep the base

the only character who will not disapprove is Zaeed since he doesn't have real dialog

Modifié par American Tradegy, 16 septembre 2011 - 11:56 .

[American Tradegy]

sry double

Modifié par American Tradegy, 16 septembre 2011 - 11:55 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

She's nothing special because she can't do anything Shepard can't do in combat. He's the best leader (though I think it's more an informed trait than anything we actually see in the game) and the best frontline fighter.

Shepard is also the best biotic and best tech specialist, depending on what class he plays, so that applies to all squad members. In that sense, all of them are easily replaced. It's somewhat of a pointless line of reasoning, though, since it's a squad-based game and Shepard will need allies. Miranda brings more to the table than most, even considered as a pure combattant from an in-game perspective, especially with the added bonus of inside knowledge of Cerberus.

The squad members abilities are cumulative. For example, a character like Grunt or Vega is a super awesome heavy-hitting frontline fighter, one of the best in the galaxy, etc., etc. Yes, Shepard is better, but that is only because Shepard is the protaganist/god. He still needs Grunt/Vega, though, and, from an in-game perspective anyway, having those awesome fighters around is a huge asset to the team.

This works even for leadership and is partly what Miranda's squad buff conveys. Just being around Miranda makes everyone more awesome at their jobs. From an in-game perspective, this means that her tactics and leadership are improving the squad's performance in combat (including Shepard's own).

Seboist wrote...
Miranda not advising to keep it and becoming victim to Shepard's magic charisma really hurt the character.

Except it's not clear at all that she changes her mind to appease Shepard. She isn't even talking to Shepard, and her lines refer to what she has personally seen and experienced on the Collector Base. So, we can imagine that Shepard influenced her in some way, perhaps, but that's clearly not the main focus. To further support this, we have the fact that Miranda doesn't seem very pleased that you kept the base if you talk to her after having made that choice.

Modifié par flemm, 16 septembre 2011 - 01:35 .

[Ieldra]

clennon8 wrote...
@Ieldra2:  I certainly appreciate the work you put into helping Elyvern with writing that story.

Regarding Interstitium, the author does switch POV's every chapter, and sometimes within the chapter, but the great thing is that each chapter is pretty much a self-contained story.  And AssaultSloth is SO GOOD with every single characterization he does.

I would highly recommend reading chapter 18.  It's something like 20,000 words long, but it's freaking amazing.  It's Wrex-centric, but also features Miranda fairly prominently.

Just re-read some parts and was reminded why I didn't like it in spite of the good writing. It's too apparent he doesn't like Miranda. I don't like the way he portrays her, her reaction at the end of her chapter is unprofessional (though I can't really blame her for it) and I dislike his Shepard. Also in chapter 18, he puts her through hell just for the lulz. I didn't find that plot element convincing.
The krogan are very well done, though. I don't think any other fanfic writer has written them so well.

[MisterJB]

naledgeborn wrote...

I don't mind that Miranda was for destroying the base. I mind that she wasn't pissed off about it. It would've been a moment of "character growth" instead of "character assassination".

She sounds and looks quite angry when you talk to her on the Normandy.

[Labrev]

I thought Miranda opposing the base in the end was a defining moment for her character. I think with her, you see a woman who comes across as cold and heartless because of the hardline approaches she takes. But, it's not because she's a bad individual, just naiive and not completely accountable for the things she does. It's easy for her to say things like "let the crew die," or "the Lazarus staff knew the risks, we aren't going back for survivors" and while she is justified in saying those things, she also never has to face the reality of those decisions. They die, but she doesn't see it. Ignorance is bliss.

The Collector Base was a human death-factory, and Miranda's view of Cerberus is largely romanticized. So it's little wonder, to me, why she wouldn't want to keep them to keep it/use it. It's probably the first time she really has to face the reality of death, and her employer. While she's been working for Cerberus for years, I think it's obvious that TIM still keeps her very much in the dark to maintain her loyalty.

I'll say this though, I don't think the post-mission squad dialogue with EVERYONE being unhappy about keeping the base was fair, and I think Miranda could have easily changed her mind if Shepard keeps the base, acknowledging something like "maybe you're right, we need every advantage to fight the Reapers."

[ubermensch007]

jtav wrote...

[talking about Oriana] "She loves the adagio movement of Nielsen's Fifth, just like I do." And Miranda is exactly as vocally talented as Strahovski. I was under the impression that she can't sing. Miranda doesn't strike me as artistic.

Speaking of: "Talking about Oriana." I think its kind of complete BS, the way Miranda and BioWare themself act like she is as smart as her older sister is.Give me a break... <_< Last time I checked, "Smart is as smart does." Operative Miranda Lawson was pushed by her father to meet impossible demands.She received the best education and training that money can buy.Oriana Lawson is like just entering College for crying outloud.

[flemm]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I'll say this though, I don't think the post-mission squad dialogue with EVERYONE being unhappy about keeping the base was fair, and I think Miranda could have easily changed her mind if Shepard keeps the base, acknowledging something like "maybe you're right, we need every advantage to fight the Reapers."

Interesting post, Hah Yes Reapers (hilarious username, by the way), I think you make some good points. On this last one, however, I actually prefer that there is some consistency from Miranda.

I do think it's a legitimate gripe, though, that the characters who initially support keeping the base all change their minds. Not because of some anti-Renegade bool**** (*in my best Udina voice*) conspiracy on the part of Bioware, but just because I don't really see the point.

Modifié par flemm, 16 septembre 2011 - 04:21 .

[clennon8]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Just re-read some parts and was reminded why I didn't like it in spite of the good writing. It's too apparent he doesn't like Miranda. I don't like the way he portrays her, her reaction at the end of her chapter is unprofessional (though I can't really blame her for it) and I dislike his Shepard. Also in chapter 18, he puts her through hell just for the lulz. I didn't find that plot element convincing.
The krogan are very well done, though. I don't think any other fanfic writer has written them so well.

Hmm.  I wondered if you might feel that way.  There was definitely some comedy at her expense, particularly when she first appeared in the chapter, but I thought he wrote her quite well, and she acquitted herself well.

Modifié par clennon8, 16 septembre 2011 - 04:34 .

[Ieldra]

naledgeborn wrote...
I don't mind that Miranda was for destroying the base. I mind that she wasn't pissed off about it. It would've been a moment of "character growth" instead of "character assassination".

Being for destroying the base does not constitute character growth. Being of two minds about it, conflicted, that would have been character growth, whether in the end she chose to support destroying the base or keeping it.

[ubermensch007]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

drwells123 wrote...

ubermensch007 wrote...
Your delusional... At no point of Mass Effect 2.Does Operative Miranda Lawson ever warm up to Joker.If you recall she even goes as far as to chew him out about losing the crew to the Collectors.Even though he and EDI were heroes...

That's one thing I'd like to see in ME3: people who walk around the ship and interact instead of just sitting there in their installed place waiting for you to walk up to them. So, for instance, you might walk up to the cockpit and find Miranda apologizing to Joker for chewing him out (after she watched the security footage to see what happened). I'll admit I really wanted to tell her where to go after I had just died several ugly deaths as Joker.

I dont care if I am delusional. First of all Joker is an experienced pilot. In his field of work he is probably setting the bar for phenomenal piloting. I hope Joker finds someone to care about in his life. Since Miri has high standards for men that excell in life Joker technically does fit that in his profile if you look at his skill at the helm. If anyone ever said Joker is not relationship material just because of Vrolik Syndrome... I honestly think I would kick them out the airlock.

No joke. One of my friends has an inoperable brain tummor and is dating a girl that I swear to (FILL IN YOUR CHOICE HERE) that she is the spitting image of Megan Fox. He has a great personality and he is funny as all hell. A lot like joker. Me my self being a childhood cancer survivor has built in bias against people who think terminally ill people are not worth growing attached to. In fact there are studies that people with debilitating illnesses get better when they have someone that cares about them that they care for.

So please dont tell me this is not because he has Vrolik Syndrome. I can understand Miranda not liking Joker because he never knows when to stop the antics, or because he is so blunt. Like when he asks Liara if she has "embraced eternity" anytime recently. Some things are meant to be private. That is a major character flaw that I can understand people not liking.

So yeah if in game Miri said something like "I cant see anyone ever getting attached to Mr. Brittle Bones over there." If she was'nt kidding around I would knock her teeth out and send her packing back to TIM if that was an option. Some things are just crossing the line.

@drwells123... yeah I agree I want to see more crew interaction.

First: LOL... I was addressing that to MassEffectfanforlife101 But if you wanted to get in on the conversation too, okay:

I wasn't saying that Joker is not relationship material with Miranda based upon his genetic disposition.But I think we can deduce from Miranda's previous romantic interest, that she likes her men.To be big, strong, handsome and accomplished.She likes them to be virile...

Definition
1. (of a man) Having strength, energy, and a strong sex drive.2. Having or characterized by strength and energy.

Maybe you never romanced Jacob (I haven't myself) but he takes his shirt off and that dude is cut deep! He has muscles on top of muscles.





Miranda like on more than one occasion talks about Shepard's physical and aesthetic attributes.Example:

Miranda: First: Its not a competition. Second: Based on your combat record.Your practically a "perfect" bloody human specimen.

Shepard - (Kiss her) Perfect human specimen, huh?

Miranda: Don't get cocky.I'm the one who put you back together - remember.And i do damn good work.

Shepard: You certainly do...

Miranda is by no means shallow though.But I do think that because of how she was brought up.The pro-eugenics and transhuman side of her maturation and upbringing has stayed with her to some extent.Joker is one of the best in his field.But the same could be said for Wilson. But Miranda didn't fancy him in the slightest.It takes more to get Ms.Lawson's attention than being good at your job.

But interestingly enough I think Miranda and Jeff do have some things in common.In Mass Effect 1, Joker kind of got on my nerves with how sensitive and touchy he was about his condition.It doesn't seem to bother him that much anymore in ME 2.He's able to just relax more and not be so sensitive about all that.Miranda in Mass Effect 2.Next to always has her genetic reality at the forefront of her mind.And it can get annoying as well.But I'm more sympathetic to her, than I was with Joker in ME1.

In anycase, it might be intersting if Miranda and Joker do at the very least find some common ground in Mass Effect 3.But her dating him, would sort of be the "ULTIMATE" Middle Finger to everything that her father raised her to be...

Now as for all this buisness you say about "kicking someone out of the airlock" and "knocking out Miranda's teeth and sending her packing back to the Illusive Man."

Well... After reading that i couldn't help but think of something Mike Tyson once said:

"Everyone has a plan, until they get hit."

Have you forgotten who Operative Lawson is?

- This is a woman who doesn't even lose her cool when Commander Shepard has his gun in her face (before we escape the Lazarus Station.) You know why? No.Its not b/c she put a control chip in Shepard head.So he can't harm her even if he wanted too.It's because she is confident in her enhanced human reflexes.She knew damn well that the moment he pulled the trigger, she would be no where in sight of fire.

- This is a woman who can "crush a mech with her biotics or shoot its head off at one-hundred yards."?

- This is also a woman who wasn't shaken by Subject Zero's antics in her office.She easily deflected the chair Jack threw at her and stared her down with her arms crossed no less...

Commander Shepard has an impressive sqaud in ME2:


But there is only one of the twelve that I really wouldn't want to have as an enemy.And that's Miranda... I once lost her loyalty after siding with Jack, and the way she interacts with Shepard after that point.Gave me the sense that she was in a state of "cold fury".It was taking every ounce of restraint that she has.In order to not attack Commander Shepard.And I'm glad she didn't.

So Omega4RelayResident, if you want to get hostile with Operative Miranda Lawson.More than likely... She would say to you: Take your best shot."

Modifié par ubermensch007, 16 septembre 2011 - 05:14 .

[Collider]

I doubt Miranda would tolerate Joker's attitude and I doubt she would find herself physically attracted to him considering his physical disability.

[clennon8]

I have a lot of trouble envisioning Miranda with Joker.

On the other hand, almost any pairing can be done believably in the hands of a skilled author.  For example, Miranda/Jack seemed fairly ridiculous to me until I read The Convict and the Loyalist by the.subverter.

Modifié par clennon8, 16 septembre 2011 - 05:14 .