82210 réponses à ce sujet

[TimberOwls]

Sorry guys - no new info...wasn't really surprised but disappoint anyways

[SlottsMachine]

In regards to the collector Base line, to me it seems that that writers just threw that line out there as a teaser for Miranda's story arc to come. And how many fans have latched onto that line, as proof that Miranda has changed(paragonified). How many fans would have a different opinion of her if she had remained a loyalist to the very end?

[naledgeborn]

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

In regards to the collector Base line, to me it seems that that writers just threw that line out there as a teaser for Miranda's story arc to come. And how many fans have latched onto that line, as proof that Miranda has changed(paragonified). How many fans would have a different opinion of her if she had remained a loyalist to the very end?

Well whatever the intent was it has a lot of people in this thread hanging at the edge of their seats. Some love it, others are okay with it, others still are confused by it, and the rest absolutely hate it.

Good job, Mac, Pete, ect.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 17 septembre 2011 - 05:37 .

[CuseGirl]

naledgeborn wrote...

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

In regards to the collector Base line, to me it seems that that writers just threw that line out there as a teaser for Miranda's story arc to come. And how many fans have latched onto that line, as proof that Miranda has changed(paragonified). How many fans would have a different opinion of her if she had remained a loyalist to the very end?

Well whatever the intent was it has a lot of people in this thread hanging at the edge of their seats. Some love it, others are okay with it, others still are confused by it, and the rest absolutely hate it.

Good job, Mac, Pete, ect.

are we still talking about the Betrayal line?

[flemm]

CuseGirl wrote...

are we still talking about the Betrayal line?

That, and flaming each other for being Strahovski stalkers and Miranda character-corrupters.

Same ol', same ol'.

[Jebel Krong]

naledgeborn wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

how is spectre status over-glorified, exactly? In-game it seems to mean little and even less seemingly in the comic. just being a spectre should put you out of alliance jurisdiction for a start. not to mention being in jail on your own ship pretty much contravening all the developments of me2...

That's what I mean. Spectre status has been demoted to a 10% discount at the Citadel Gift Shop. Shepard not being Commanding Officer of the Normandy while the VS deferred to his/her judgment would add potential for dramatic conflict among the Normandy crew while not taking away the players ability to chose. Shepard is afterall a war criminal. Doubt it would happen like flemm said but a possibilty to consider.

war criminal? how was that ascertained? 

a. no-one should know shepard was even there.
b. to be a war criminal, you have to be, y'know: at war. the alliance isn't, nor is the batarian hegemony. the reapers haven't arrived yet.
c. at best it could be classed as an accident (sic); at worse they were unintended casualties of a necessary delaying action.
d. hackett as the person who asked shepard to get involved in the situation is just as culpable for the outcome as he knew at least some of what his agent was up to and therefore any unintended consequences as a result.

also - to use your logic the people who dropped bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki were war criminals also (and that was at the end of an actual war).

[CuseGirl]

flemm wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

are we still talking about the Betrayal line?

That, and flaming each other for being Strahovski stalkers and Miranda character-corrupters.

Same ol', same ol'.

she's been on my desktop for weeks now.....she's not coming off.....

And the "betrayal line" issue is way overblown. Whats wrong with wut she said: she just saw first hand the guts of a ship capable of the greatest human tragedy EVER. To "harness" the power of that machine is a betrayal and if u care about any sentient race, you would probably say the same thing.

[naledgeborn]

Jebel Krong wrote...




war criminal? how was that ascertained? 

a. no-one should know shepard was even there.
b. to be a war criminal, you have to be, y'know: at war. the alliance isn't, nor is the batarian hegemony. the reapers haven't arrived yet.
c. at best it could be classed as an accident (sic); at worse they were unintended casualties of a necessary delaying action.
d. hackett as the person who asked shepard to get involved in the situation is just as culpable for the outcome as he knew at least some of what his agent was up to and therefore any unintended consequences as a result.

Sure pick apart everything I said. *I* know Shepard isn't a war criminal because I played Arrival. But to the greater galactic community s/he is a war criminal. If the events of Arrvial hasn't been leaked to the "public" by ME3 it soon will be as Shepard's trial will be... public. Also judging by the Mass Effect: Conviction comic it's already common knowledge and Batarians are holding him responsible. Yes it's a war crime because a human (formally a Lt. Commander of the SAN) destroying an enitre Batarian system would be seen as such. And Yes, Hackett should be the one in chains.

also - to use your logic the people who dropped bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki were war criminals also (and that was at the end of an actual war).

I don't wish to dicuss RL politics. However I'm inclined towards that statement are my views alone, and discussing RL views gets messy.

[Ieldra]

naledgeborn wrote...

GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

In regards to the collector Base line, to me it seems that that writers just threw that line out there as a teaser for Miranda's story arc to come. And how many fans have latched onto that line, as proof that Miranda has changed(paragonified). How many fans would have a different opinion of her if she had remained a loyalist to the very end?

Well whatever the intent was it has a lot of people in this thread hanging at the edge of their seats. Some love it, others are okay with it, others still are confused by it, and the rest absolutely hate it.

Good job, Mac, Pete, ect.

For me it's character assassination of the first order. Good job of ruining my favorite character, if the "betrayal" line is a sign of things to come. I can understand that they needed to get her away from Cerberus if you destroy the base, but why the hell did they give her a line that would, if taken seriously, destroy all of what she had been before, including all of her pragmatism and her competence as an operative?

Hopefully we all put too much importance on this, and whoever wrote it didn't think a lot about Miranda except that they needed her away from Cerberus. But I've always resented this damnable Paragon favoritism of Bioware's, and seeting it applied to Miranda really doesn't help my peace of mind with regard to ME3. 

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

But I've always resented this damnable Paragon favoritism of Bioware's, and seeting it applied to Miranda really doesn't help my peace of mind with regard to ME3.

I think what you perceive as Paragon favoritism may actually be a side effect of Bioware having a different view of the distinction between the Paragon/Renegade paths than your own. To judge from the posts I have seen from you on the subject, you tend to see it as sentimentality vs. pragmatism. But in the game it's more like badassery or ruthlessness vs. heroism. Neither path is really characterized by a focus on pragmatism, or a lack of emotional involvement overall.

That's why, when Renegade Shep makes a speech, it's "We're gonna kick their asses and make them pay!"

Whereas with Paragon Shep, it's "We're gonna save our friends and do the right thing!"

In neither case do you get "This is tactically crucial to the war effort and likely to produce optimal results. So let's do it!"

I'm not being 100% serious with that last part, obviously, but both paths tend to be infused with emotion. Is what I'm saying.

Modifié par flemm, 17 septembre 2011 - 08:24 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

But I've always resented this damnable Paragon favoritism of Bioware's, and seeting it applied to Miranda really doesn't help my peace of mind with regard to ME3.

I think what you perceive as Paragon favoritism may actually be a side effect of Bioware having a different view of the distinction between the Paragon/Renegade paths than your own. To judge from the posts I have seen from you on the subject, you tend to see it as sentimentality vs. pragmatism. But in the game it's more like badassery or ruthlessness vs. heroism. Neither path is really characterized by a focus on pragmatism, or a lack of emotional involvement overall.

Define "heroism". I object to the notion that Renegade-ish Shepards can't be heroic, and I cannot see the heroism in destroying the base. Also I need not define Paragon/Renegade, the game gives me that and my - and many other's - perception that Bioware panders overmuch to Paragons is based on that.

And lastly, I maintain that the Paragon path is characterized by a tendency to let empathy rule your decisions regardless of the risks, no matter that you can find rationalizations for most Paragon decisions.

I think the real problem is that Bioware associated Renegade with more or less ruthless human domination rather than a style of doing things as it should be. That results in the perception by some people that most Renegades are Cerberus supporters, and it implies that you keep the base because you support Cerberus. For most who keep the base nothing could be further from the truth.

Miranda's resignation should not have depended on the base decision IMO. 

[jtav]

Let me see if I can explain mine and Ieldra's concerns. Idealism and being a "good guy" pays off in ME. All the female LIs except Miranda are fairly Paragon or they have a love redeems moment and their hard shell shatters. Miranda doesn't. She's been willing to be sometimes unnecessarily cold and harsh in pursuit of the mission. We like that about her. We don't want her "redeemed."

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think the real problem is that Bioware associated Renegade with more or less ruthless human domination rather than a style of doing things as it should be.

Right here is quite possibly the crux of the issue and what I was pointing out above. I'm not saying that your perception of what the Renegade path *should be* is necessarily wrong-headed. What I'm saying is that it differs from the way it is actually designed in the game, probably in a variety of ways.

jtav wrote...
Miranda doesn't. She's been willing to be
sometimes unnecessarily cold and harsh in pursuit of the mission. We
like that about her. We don't want her "redeemed."

That's cool. I don't think Miranda needs to be redeemed either. She should retain her capacity to be ruthless and calculating (within certain bounds). But I also think that a powerful sentiment of revulsion due to her experiences on the CB is quite plausible, given what we know about the character, and not a sign that she is suddenly going to become a girly-girl who just can't think straight when there's work to be done.

Modifié par flemm, 17 septembre 2011 - 08:56 .

[naledgeborn]

^^ What jtav said. To further simplify it for some hard-headed folks... Let Shepard be the mildly "good" guy (if that's how you play it), I want my "bad" girl.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 17 septembre 2011 - 08:52 .

[xJdazzlex]

It would make sense if she became a bit more understanding and less cold because of her experiences with the collectors, also, if she is romantically involved with Shepard she might want to change who she is to live up to Shepard's name because in one of the conversations with Shepard she gets all upset about him being amazing through his own will but she had to be modified, etc..

[Caihn]

flemm wrote...

That's cool. I don't think Miranda needs to be redeemed either. She should retain her capacity to be ruthless and calculating (within certain bounds). But I also think that a powerful sentiment of revulsion due to her experiences on the CB is quite plausible, given what we know about the character, and not a sign that she is suddenly going to become a girly-girl who just can't think straight when there's work to be done.

this

I find completely ridiculous to raise the Paragon Vs Renegade flag everytime we have to discuss this topic.
I play my Shepards like I want without Paragon or Renegade consideration, and I accept the different characters like they are, avoiding any categorization.
I don't want to "paragonized" Miranda, I just want the Miranda created by the Bioware writers. And this includes the aspect of her character showed at the end of the game.

Modifié par Yannkee, 17 septembre 2011 - 10:13 .

[Eyeshield21]

I ****ed up, for some reason my playthrough where I romanced Miranda got erased
here goes 4 more days of my life.

Modifié par Eyeshield21, 17 septembre 2011 - 10:42 .

[Caihn]

Eyeshield21 wrote...

I ****ed up, for some reason my playthrough where I romanced Miranda got erased

You have 6 months to make a new one. 

[Eyeshield21]

Yannkee wrote...

Eyeshield21 wrote...

I ****ed up, for some reason my playthrough where I romanced Miranda got erased

You have 6 months to make a new one. 

I finished that playthrough 3 days ago

[naledgeborn]

Guess there goes another opportunity for you to get that "perfect playthrough" rolling.

[Eyeshield21]

naledgeborn wrote...

Guess there goes another opportunity for you to get that "perfect playthrough" rolling.

no kidding, well that playthrough didn't have all the DLC, so I should get overlord(or should I not?)

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Sooner or later, Miri and I will be kicking ass and loving each other in my very first Insanity Playthrough. I remember playing through Verteran once. Since I switched to the PC, I had to start on Normal again. So I'm going to make a huge jump.

[Omega4RelayResident]

clennon8 wrote...

Yeah, but... Don't y'all have something more to add to the conversation, besides telling other people not to have the conversation? I mean, this is a discussion forum, not just a "We wub Yvonne" tribute page.

EDIT:  Never mind.  I'm out.  BSN remains the cesspool I thought it was.

BYE!  

Is it time to party again?

[Eyeshield21]

Eyeshield21 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Eyeshield21 wrote...

I ****ed up, for some reason my playthrough where I romanced Miranda got erased

You have 6 months to make a new one. 

I finished that playthrough 3 days ago

Sigh, I'm doing it right now.......

[Caihn]

Eyeshield21 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Guess there goes another opportunity for you to get that "perfect playthrough" rolling.

no kidding, well that playthrough didn't have all the DLC, so I should get overlord(or should I not?)

Overlord is good DLC, but not essential.
I like to play this DLC lately during the game : few missions before the suicide mission.