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[Omega4RelayResident]

During the First Contact War TIM made contact with a Reaper artifact. The contact event left his eyes glowing. I can not judge his true intentions yet but I have a sick feeling in my stomach that they have never been to "save" the galaxy from the Reapers. He is ambitious enough to want to defeat them and take their direction of existance and make it the direction for all humanity.

Basically he believes humans to be superior so why waste the superiority and why not become more than the Reapers could ever achieve. See glowing eyes have never been a good sign in ME and I find it a funny coincidence that if you zoom in on Saren cut-scenes in HD you can clearly see his eyes glow blue in a similar fashion. It also makes sense that the tech used for the Lazarus project came from Reaper tech. I mean what else could revive a dead hunk of meat back to life?

People then ask me why do Renegade Sheps eyes glow red? Well first of all we can all agree that if Paragon Sheps scaring got worse throughout the game... his eyes would glow as well. I think that they put the fact that Shep heals his scars as a Paragon to hide the fact that his eyes would always glow red. The red color I think signifies the fact that the tech is either updated or that it for some reason is malfunctioning and is not having the same effect it normally would.

This just metagame speculation is all... I have read a number or Drew Karpyshyn books to know that this would be the big twist... however with Mac Walters in the equation I honestly have no clue where this is going.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:20 .

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
Ieldra did say 'might', which is synonymous with hope in context imo.

No, she's resigned about Shepard decision. And she only hopes it will be worth it. She never acknowledge about keeping the base.

By expressing the hope that it will be worth it, she acknowledges that it's possible that it might be worth it. There is no one-sided moral absolutism in this statement. Otherwise she would've said something like "I think it's a mistake".

[Ieldra]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
This just metagame speculation is all... I have read a number or Drew Karpyshyn books to know that this would be the big twist... however with Mac Walters in the equation I honestly have no clue where this is going.

I find myself appreciating Mac Walters more as the time goes on. I don't like that he's taken some inspiration from comic book conventions for ME2, but I think he's not as heavy-handed with his writing as Karpyshyn. See the different portrayals of TIM - in the game, he's a two-faced manipulator who might just have a point worth considering in spite of his ruthlessness, in the books he's a typical villain with no redeeming qualities. Karpyshyn has tried to mitigate that effect in Retribution, but still didn't manage to give him the mysterious and two-faced quality he has in the game.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:19 .

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
Ieldra did say 'might', which is synonymous with hope in context imo.

No, she's resigned about Shepard decision. And she only hopes it will be worth it. She never acknowledge about keeping the base.

By expressing the hope that it will be worth it, she acknowledges that it's possible that it might be worth it. There is no one-sided moral absolutism in this statement. Otherwise she would've said something like "I think it's a mistake".

This is the exact quote :

"I hope whatever Cerberus finds in that base is worth it"

It's just a hope, not an acknowledgment that it's the right decision.
On the other hand, if you destroy the base : she's categorical.

Modifié par Yannkee, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:26 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I find myself appreciating Mac Walters more as the time goes on. I don't like that he's taken some inspiration from comic book conventions for ME2, but I think he's not as heavy-handed with his writing as Karpyshyn. See the different portrayals of TIM - in the game, he's a two-faced manipulator who might just have a point worth considering in spite of his ruthlessness, in the books he's a typical villain with no redeeming qualities. Karpyshyn has tried to mitigate that effect in Retribution, but still didn't manage to give him the mysterious and two-faced quality he has in the game.

See Karpyshyn doesnt want to give that point away... he like his huge revalation moments to hit at a very exact moment of his writting. Mac Walters has a short story approach becaus I believe he got his start in comic books a while back. Could be wrong on that. So the story is more up front throughout the telling.

One thing I have to add is that the glowing eyes thing reminds me of the same way Sith eyes would turn pale and then yellow and bloodshot.

And honestly after Saren and the Husk waves in ME1 from an in game perspective... I WOULD NEVER TRUST ANYTHING WITH GLOWING BLUE EYES AGAIN. I believe in coincidences sure but at some point you have to draw a line in the sand for what is a believable lie.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
 That's a reasonable attitude and quite different from the stupid apodictic condemnation she gives in the exchange with TIM and which makes a joke of her being TIM's most competent operative. If that was character development, we would've seen something leading up to this drastic example of chickification. 

Miranda is not limited, as a character, to being TIM's most competant operative. She is that, but she is also willing to walk away if she thinks or feels that it is time to do so. That's an important thing to know about Miranda, and much more interesting than her being the most competant Cerberus operative around on all occasions.

It's not even the first time that Miranda disobeys TIM because of her personal feelings of loyalty. (First instance that we know of, I believe, is what launches Jacob's loyalty mission.) With the CB, it's a larger scale decision, and the loyalty we're talking about is Miranda's loyalty to humanity as a whole, rather than one person. But it's not that different. "I keep my promises."

Re: "chickification," I get where the fear is coming from. I do understand it, as far as Miranda's future portrayal is concerned. But really in this case it fails to account for the context. You don't have to be a "chick" to feel a sense of moral repugnance when you walk into a giant human death factory, and when you consider using that tech in the future (quite possibly on other sentient beings and even other humans).

Modifié par flemm, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:32 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

We got way off topic but since we are here I finally got my custom Avatar to work. SCORE!


I do really hate the fact that people still see Miranda as shackled to TIM and Cerberus... true she has her beliefs and convictions... but she is too strong and too smart to be locked down even if she begins to change her mind. I also remember her in the conversation with Shep saying "maybe" to him when he was going on all about the negative side of Cerberus.

Then she got back on track with defending Cerberus. I do think that conversation was the first seed of doubt in her mind.

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:32 .

[nitefyre410]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...

I said it before and I will say it again BioWare prides themselves when making an RPG by allowing the NPCs to change who they were at the beginning of the game into who you drove them to become... the NPCs can also change your outlook on your decisions.

The effects on the NPCs were blatanlty obvious in KotOR. Obsidian Entertainment was commisoned by BW to do KotOR2 and they even elaborated on that process even more.

The mastefull stroke in ME is that the changes are either subtle or so out of character for the NPC it causes arguments like this.

Subtle example: when you met Garrus for the first time he was a "typical" honorbound Turian that followed orders even if he did not like them... slowly traveling with Shep he became more and more proactive about doing things the way he thought was right.

Blatant example: Wrex was a warmonger bounty hunter for hire... the travels with Shep and the events on Virmire turned him into a noble leader that wants a secured future for the Krogan. In my honest opinon he went from self serving to honorable and just.

From the gamer perspective: It should have never came to you as a shock the decision Miranda made concerning the CB. Shep has an incredible effect on people around him. An inspiration for them to be Paragons or Renegades themselves. BioWare really out did themselves this time because people did not notice that these changes were happening because of their actions.

From the in game perspective: Yes I agree with you all that the decision is unlike her. She would not act on a whim without further research. Like I said maybe she had a moment of intuition that took over concerning the CB.

I hate Cerberus and all it stands for. Its a corrupt institiution with no moral limitations. In my analysis I tried to keep that opinion out of it. I really hope that it pans out the way I am thinking its going to pan out.

 

 I think you may be miss reading   this just a little bit -  Garrus was always a go with your gut type,  The huge disconnect between him and his father was over that fact that his father  was career  C- Sec man and did like the Specters where Garrus could not stand the "Red Tape"  and hoops he had to jump through  to get something done.  Hell his relationship with his Sister is a  falling about because she is home taking care of their mother while he is "Running around play hero".     Wrex  in his  on of this coversations says that the Genophage is not what  killing his people and in other conversations talks of how the Krognan's need hospitals and scientist, etc, etc and leadership.    Wrex was never  the warmonger bounty hunter and put yourself in his shoes - some one is offering your peope chance to cure something that effective  "Knee Capped"  them  - him confronting Shepard on it is completly in character.  Matter of fact - if  we did not have that confrontation  I would have been scatching  my head.      

Bioware biggest Issue and I have always said this is they  never really get into the meat of the characters is all  sizzle and now steak.  ME 2 this  glaring obiviousa  and Miranda is a classic example -  most people  where scratching there heads with CB because you never  see start  question the Illusive Man - she never shows any doubt.  Even in the Collector Ship with the trap - then out of know she  quits - it just too sudden.  There was no kind of the progression from  Point A to Point B.  

[Caihn]

flemm wrote...
It's not even the first time that Miranda disobeys TIM because of her personal feelings of loyalty. (First launches Jacob's loyalty mission.) With the CB, it's a larger scale decision, and the loyalty we're talking about is Miranda's loyalty to humanity as a whole, rather than one person. But it's not that different. "I keep my promises."

Too bad we don't know what TIM said to Miranda after the debriefing. Again, it's not Shepard's buiseness, but I'm curious.

[flemm]

Yannkee wrote...

Too bad we don't know what TIM said to Miranda after the debriefing. Again, it's not Shepard's buiseness, but I'm curious.

True, it would be interesting to know. Similarly, it would be interesting to know what was said in discussions the two characters obviously have had in the past about some of Cerberus' more abusive projects.

[Caihn]

flemm wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Too bad we don't know what TIM said to Miranda after the debriefing. Again, it's not Shepard's buiseness, but I'm curious.

True, it would be interesting to know. Similarly, it would be interesting to know what was said in discussions the two characters obviously have had in the past about some of Cerberus' more abusive projects.

My opinion :
Miranda asked TIM about these projects, and TIM's justifications are the same that Miranda says to Shepard during the conversation about Cerberus.
I don't blame Miranda of being naive about TIM, he's a very talented man who can convice anybody that what's is doing is right.


 

Modifié par Yannkee, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:44 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
 That's a reasonable attitude and quite different from the stupid apodictic condemnation she gives in the exchange with TIM and which makes a joke of her being TIM's most competent operative. If that was character development, we would've seen something leading up to this drastic example of chickification. 

Miranda is not limited, as a character, to being TIM's most competant operative. She is that, but she is also willing to walk away if she thinks or feels that it is time to do so. That's an important thing to know about Miranda, and much more interesting than her being the most competant Cerberus operative around on all occasions.

Of course not. You misunderstand my point. I don't object to the fact that her stance reflects badly on her loyalty, but to the fact that her stance (failing to acknowledge that the base could be worth anything) reflects badly on her competence.

Re: "chickification," I get where the fear is coming from. I do understand it, as far as Miranda's future portrayal is concerned. But really in this case it fails to account for the context. You don't have to be a "chick" to feel a sense of moral repugnance when you walk into a giant human death factory, and when you consider using that tech in the future (quite possibly on other sentient beings and even other humans).

Yes, but again that's not the point. There is a difference between "Using this base for its intended purpose feels like a betrayal" and "Using anything from this base feels like a betrayal". The first is believable moral repugnance, the second is sentimentality. If the former was what Miranda meant, why didn't she say so? The difference might seem marginal, but as a permanent character trait (as opposed to a one-time occurrance) it would be what differentiates a Miranda I like from a Miranda I loathe - and a clear-thinking and badass woman from a sentimental chick.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:49 .

[flemm]

Yannkee wrote...
My opinion :
Miranda asked TIM about these projects, and TIM's justifications are the same that Miranda says to Shepard during the conversation about Cerberus.

Yeah, probably. And the way Cerberus works seems to be arranged to allow TIM to have a certain amount of plausible deniability in these cases.

[Arijharn]

Yannkee wrote...

This is the exact quote :

"I hope whatever Cerberus finds in that base is worth it"

It's just a hope, not an acknowledgment that it's the right decision.
On the other hand, if you destroy the base : she's categorical.

Right, but she still doesn't say that nothing good can come out of it (which is, in a sense, an acknowledgement (albeit slight) that there could be benefit from it, although it's obviously not a decision she might have made herself). It's still a heel faced turn from the rest of the game though imo. Where's the woman who would have had no problem putting a control chip in your brain? That's got to be pretty 'unethical' as it is, since it not only strips you of your sense of identity and morale compass (because you basically become a proxy for another) it also strips away your freedom pretty implicitly.

[Melra]

Arijharn wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

This is the exact quote :

"I hope whatever Cerberus finds in that base is worth it"

It's just a hope, not an acknowledgment that it's the right decision.
On the other hand, if you destroy the base : she's categorical.

Right, but she still doesn't say that nothing good can come out of it (which is, in a sense, an acknowledgement (albeit slight) that there could be benefit from it, although it's obviously not a decision she might have made herself). It's still a heel faced turn from the rest of the game though imo. Where's the woman who would have had no problem putting a control chip in your brain? That's got to be pretty 'unethical' as it is, since it not only strips you of your sense of identity and morale compass (because you basically become a proxy for another) it also strips away your freedom pretty implicitly.

Not this chip stuff again.. Honestly, what kind person would resurrect an enemy and just pray they'd join their cause? Not any sane person that I know. Nobody is that naive, and if Shepard was needed if nothing more than as a symbol, then chipped Shepard would've done just fine.

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
This is the exact quote :
"I hope whatever Cerberus finds in that base is worth it"

It's just a hope, not an acknowledgment that it's the right decision.
On the other hand, if you destroy the base : she's categorical.

Right, but she still doesn't say that nothing good can come out of it (which is, in a sense, an acknowledgement (albeit slight) that there could be benefit from it, although it's obviously not a decision she might have made herself). It's still a heel faced turn from the rest of the game though imo. Where's the woman who would have had no problem putting a control chip in your brain? That's got to be pretty 'unethical' as it is, since it not only strips you of your sense of identity and morale compass (because you basically become a proxy for another) it also strips away your freedom pretty implicitly.

Yep. And while in Shepard's case she obviously doesn't see the need for a control chip any more, there is no indication she's changed her mind on justifying such a measure in a general sense, if things are important enough. And things don't become much more important than at the CB.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:59 .

[Caihn]

flemm wrote...

Yannkee wrote...
My opinion :
Miranda asked TIM about these projects, and TIM's justifications are the same that Miranda says to Shepard during the conversation about Cerberus.

Yeah, probably. And the way Cerberus works seems to be arranged to allow TIM to have a certain amount of plausible deniability in these cases.

Yeah, and during ME2, when Shepard had to invistigate some projects, she could see what certain cells were really performing.

[Caihn]

Melrache wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

This is the exact quote :

"I hope whatever Cerberus finds in that base is worth it"

It's just a hope, not an acknowledgment that it's the right decision.
On the other hand, if you destroy the base : she's categorical.

Right, but she still doesn't say that nothing good can come out of it (which is, in a sense, an acknowledgement (albeit slight) that there could be benefit from it, although it's obviously not a decision she might have made herself). It's still a heel faced turn from the rest of the game though imo. Where's the woman who would have had no problem putting a control chip in your brain? That's got to be pretty 'unethical' as it is, since it not only strips you of your sense of identity and morale compass (because you basically become a proxy for another) it also strips away your freedom pretty implicitly.

Not this chip stuff again.. Honestly, what kind person would resurrect an enemy and just pray they'd join their cause? Not any sane person that I know. Nobody is that naive, and if Shepard was needed if nothing more than as a symbol, then chipped Shepard would've done just fine.

this

[Ieldra]

Melrache wrote...
Not this chip stuff again.. Honestly, what kind person would resurrect an enemy and just pray they'd join their cause? Not any sane person that I know. Nobody is that naive, and if Shepard was needed if nothing more than as a symbol, then chipped Shepard would've done just fine.

Exactly.

The thing is that the CB decision is of the same kind. What kind of person but a naive idealist would reject out of hand the opportunity to learn about the inner workings of a galaxy-destroying enemy they don't know how to defeat yet?

Miranda is not a naive idealist, thus her opposition to keeping the base without even the slightest consideration of that aspect is out of character.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 septembre 2011 - 01:55 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

nitefyre410 wrote...

 I think you may be miss reading   this just a little bit -  Garrus was always a go with your gut type,  The huge disconnect between him and his father was over that fact that his father  was career  C- Sec man and did like the Specters where Garrus could not stand the "Red Tape"  and hoops he had to jump through  to get something done.  Hell his relationship with his Sister is a  falling about because she is home taking care of their mother while he is "Running around play hero".     Wrex  in his  on of this coversations says that the Genophage is not what  killing his people and in other conversations talks of how the Krognan's need hospitals and scientist, etc, etc and leadership.    Wrex was never  the warmonger bounty hunter and put yourself in his shoes - some one is offering your peope chance to cure something that effective  "Knee Capped"  them  - him confronting Shepard on it is completly in character.  Matter of fact - if  we did not have that confrontation  I would have been scatching  my head.      

Bioware biggest Issue and I have always said this is they  never really get into the meat of the characters is all  sizzle and now steak.  ME 2 this  glaring obiviousa  and Miranda is a classic example -  most people  where scratching there heads with CB because you never  see start  question the Illusive Man - she never shows any doubt.  Even in the Collector Ship with the trap - then out of know she  quits - it just too sudden.  There was no kind of the progression from  Point A to Point B.  

I am sorry my argument was not met on the same level. You are still talking in game. I am talking about the way BioWare trends to design character development and progress through out a game. BioWare always makes the NPCs evolve along with the player. Evidence: Baldur's Gate, KotOR, KotOR2 (it was outsourced to Obsidian), Jade Empire.... they all did this.

Garrus said in both ME1 "I followed orders even though I did not like them" and in ME2 about Turian battle preparations "the officers ran us tight".... its a Turian social development that they always follow orders... Garrus was affected my Shep in ME1 and thats why he ended up leaving C-Sec and decided to do what Shep did... take matters in his own hands

Yes Wrex was always concerned with his people... but he never did anything about it... you met him while he was contracted to deal with Fisk... selfish bountyhunter concerns.... and yes he was distressed on Virmire because he saw a way to help the Krogan... but if you convinced him not to take that path.... he decided to actually be proactive about his wishes for his people.

[flemm]

Arijharn wrote...
 Where's the woman who would have had no problem putting a control chip in your brain? That's got to be pretty 'unethical' as it is, since it not only strips you of your sense of identity and morale compass (because you basically become a proxy for another) it also strips away your freedom pretty implicitly.

Pretty much all of the material in the game for Miranda is devoted to developing other aspects of her character than the one that wants to put a control chip in Shepard's brain.

However, she can certainly be ruthless in certain situations. Miranda's attitude regarding Shepard basically acknowledges what an insanely stupid idea it is for the organisation to spend such a huge chunk of its resources on reviving someone who could then just walk away. Initially, she doesn't have much respect for Shepard and, yes, is absolutely willing to be unethical in the traditional sense to protect the investment.

However, if she had had her way, I doubt Shepard would have been revived at all, thus there would have been no question of a control chip.

Ieldra2 wrote...

The thing is that the CB decision is of the same kind. What kind of person but a naive idealist would reject out of hand the opportunity to learn about the inner workings of a galaxy-destroying enemy they don't know how to defeat yet?

In the case of CB, getting rid of it is not a naive choice, at least not in any obvous way, all aspects of the situation considered. Keeping it and trusting TIM to use it appropriately is arguably the more naive choice.

Arguable, perhaps, but there is no clear-cut preference here, where pure pragmatism is concerned.

Modifié par flemm, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:03 .

[Omega4RelayResident]

Melrache wrote...

Not this chip stuff again.. Honestly, what kind person would resurrect an enemy and just pray they'd join their cause? Not any sane person that I know. Nobody is that naive, and if Shepard was needed if nothing more than as a symbol, then chipped Shepard would've done just fine.

I was asked what my opinon was on the subject. I gave it. I stand by it. Why do you feel the need to belittle it because it does not coincide with yours? I get it you dont agree... and you dont have to rub it in everytime its posted.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Exactly.

The thing is that the CB decision is of the same kind. What kind of person but a naive idealist would reject out of hand the opportunity to learn about the inner workings of a galaxy-destroying enemy they don't know how to defeat yet?

Miranda is not a naive idealist, thus her opposition to keeping the base without even the slightest consideration of that aspect is out of character.

Proud to be an idealist. With all you pesemists out there someone has to do the dirty work.

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Melrache wrote...
Not this chip stuff again.. Honestly, what kind person would resurrect an enemy and just pray they'd join their cause? Not any sane person that I know. Nobody is that naive, and if Shepard was needed if nothing more than as a symbol, then chipped Shepard would've done just fine.

Exactly.

The thing is that the CB decision is of the same kind. What kind of person but a naive idealist would reject out of hand the opportunity to learn about the inner workings of a galaxy-destroying enemy they don't know how to defeat yet?

Miranda is not a naive idealist, thus her opposition to keeping the base without even the slightest consideration of that aspect is out of character.

Because, your claim that this decision is stupid, naive, idealist ... or whatever ... is your opinion.
Not Miranda's opinion.

[Omega4RelayResident]

Yannkee wrote...

Because, your claim that this decision is stupid, naive, idealist ... or whatever ... is your opinion.
Not Miranda's opinion.

And yet she quits.... .... just saying....

I just dont want to be harassed over my Idealistic beliefs. Ieldra2 asked me what I thought was going to happen. Ieldra2 respectfully disagreed... but everyone else got on here and basically attacked me because I am not some mind controled Cerberus backup dancer. Leave my decision alone.... I am not telling you to go do it AM I?

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:04 .