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"I'll always want you in my life." Miranda Lawson in Mass Effect 3


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#13801
Melra

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Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Melrache wrote...

Not this chip stuff again.. Honestly, what kind person would resurrect an enemy and just pray they'd join their cause? Not any sane person that I know. Nobody is that naive, and if Shepard was needed if nothing more than as a symbol, then chipped Shepard would've done just fine.


I was asked what my opinon was on the subject. I gave it. I stand by it. Why do you feel the need to belittle it because it does not coincide with yours? I get it you dont agree... and you dont have to rub it in everytime its posted.

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Wasn't talking to you. :huh:

#13802
MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

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First pic of the page:wub:.
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Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:04 .


#13803
Ieldra

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Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Exactly.

The thing is that the CB decision is of the same kind. What kind of person but a naive idealist would reject out of hand the opportunity to learn about the inner workings of a galaxy-destroying enemy they don't know how to defeat yet?

Miranda is not a naive idealist, thus her opposition to keeping the base without even the slightest consideration of that aspect is out of character.

Proud to be an idealist.Image IPB With all you pesemists out there someone has to do the dirty work. Image IPB

Actually I am an optimist: I think something worthwile can be found on the base. :lol:

Where I am a realist is that I don't believe the universe will adjust its course for something as insignificant in the greater scheme of things as human morality. The morality of a decision has no influence on the probability of its having the intended results. Quite the opposite in fact: since as humans we are inclined to believe that the moral decision is also the expedient one, we are more likely to become the victim of wishful thinking.

@101:
Thanks for posting a universally-liked picture :)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:05 .


#13804
Melra

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And you can't even compare those two things. Chip and Base, there's nothing naive about not using the base. It's decision solely based on previous experiences. It's silly to even think they're somehow comparable.

#13805
Caihn

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Yeah, even my most pragmatic Shepard would't let TIM use this base.

#13806
Ieldra

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Melrache wrote...
And you can't even compare those two things. Chip and Base, there's nothing naive about not using the base. It's decision solely based on previous experiences. It's silly to even think they're somehow comparable.

Sorry but you're wrong here. Apodictically claiming that there's nothing of value in the base (which by her failure to mention it Miranda appears to do) just because it's morally repugnant is the hallmark of the naive idealist.

BTW even my most idealist Shepard would keep the base. It appears we have a serious case of cognitive dissonance here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:07 .


#13807
Sebby

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Finally completed my Pro-Cerberus Mirandamance playthrough just a few minutes ago. Hopefully Roland Shepard will be able to high five TIM in ME3 for giving him Miranda and the bangin' space crib.

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#13808
Omega4RelayResident

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Does anyone remember Miranda's exact words before you make the decision as to whether or not to keep the CB?

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:12 .


#13809
Omega4RelayResident

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Melrache wrote...
Wasn't talking to you. :huh:


My bad I am so used to have my theories about ME3 get attacked... I am sure you are not a fan of them either.

#13810
Sebby

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Omega4RelayResident wrote...

Does anyone rememebr Miranda's exact words before you make the decision as to whether or not to keep the CB?


Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand - using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.

#13811
flemm

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Sorry but you're wrong here. Apodictically claiming that there's nothing of value in the base (which by her failure to mention it Miranda appears to do) just because it's morally repugnant is the hallmark of the naive idealist.


Here you are really stretching what she says, while also eliminating the context. She is not giving her opinion on whether or not there is anything at all of value in the base, she's giving her opinion on using it (in the upcoming conflict and beyond). And not just anybody using it, but Cerberus (until this moment, her organisation) and TIM.

Modifié par flemm, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:14 .


#13812
Omega4RelayResident

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Seboist wrote...

Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand - using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.


When the most intelligent woman on the Normandy speaks... I listen.

#13813
Ieldra

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Seboist wrote...
Finally completed my Pro-Cerberus Mirandamance playthrough just a few minutes ago. Hopefully Roland Shepard will be able to high five TIM in ME3 for giving him Miranda and the bangin' space crib.

Yep, I also hope that for my Renegon, Andrash Shepard. "The best thing he did was to put you on my squad" - I guess we can agree on that regardless of other disagreements. I don't have much hope for such a scenario, though. Short of TIM acknowledging that what he has unleashed has escaped his control and he needs Shepard to reign in it again I don't see it happen.

Nice pictures btw. I never get tired of the hug...  

#13814
Melra

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Melrache wrote...
And you can't even compare those two things. Chip and Base, there's nothing naive about not using the base. It's decision solely based on previous experiences. It's silly to even think they're somehow comparable.

Sorry but you're wrong here. Apodictically claiming that there's nothing of value in the base (which by her failure to mention it Miranda appears to do) just because it's morally repugnant is the hallmark of the naive idealist.

BTW even my most idealist Shepard would keep the base. It appears we have a serious case of cognitive dissonance here.


No, you can't compare those two. The other is about bringing back someone that has already died, he has lived his life once. He was -dead-. Taking someone like that and putting a chip in them to keep them in check, can't be compared to using a technology that has in almost all cases backfired on those who tried to use it. In this case it's even being handed over to TIM, who has proven on more than one occasion that he can't be trusted. Which Miri seemed to think at that point as well.

#13815
MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

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Seboist wrote...

Finally completed my Pro-Cerberus Mirandamance playthrough just a few minutes ago. Hopefully Roland Shepard will be able to high five TIM in ME3 for giving him Miranda and the bangin' space crib.

Image IPB

Image IPB


This best part after the SM for me:wub:.

#13816
HogarthHughes 3

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Omega4RelayResident wrote...

I am sorry my argument was not met on the same level. You are still talking in game. I am talking about the way BioWare trends to design character development and progress through out a game. BioWare always makes the NPCs evolve along with the player. Evidence: Baldur's Gate, KotOR, KotOR2 (it was outsourced to Obsidian), Jade Empire.... they all did this.

Garrus said in both ME1 "I followed orders even though I did not like them" and in ME2 about Turian battle preparations "the officers ran us tight".... its a Turian social development that they always follow orders... Garrus was affected my Shep in ME1 and thats why he ended up leaving C-Sec and decided to do what Shep did... take matters in his own hands

Yes Wrex was always concerned with his people... but he never did anything about it... you met him while he was contracted to deal with Fisk... selfish bountyhunter concerns.... and yes he was distressed on Virmire because he saw a way to help the Krogan... but if you convinced him not to take that path.... he decided to actually be proactive about his wishes for his people.


/delurk :bandit:

You oughtta talk to Wrex more, he has some cool stories to share.  He already tried to unite the Krogan once before (guiding them down a "gentler" path as he is in ME2) however he was opposed by a Warlord from the Krogan Rebellions.  To avoid ruining any surprises more than I already have, I'll just say that it goes badly and Wrex becomes disillusioned with the Krogan.  His time with Shepard somehow compels him to give the Krogan another chance.  (So you are still partially correct about him changing over the course of ME1)

/lurk :bandit:

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:20 .


#13817
Omega4RelayResident

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Melrache wrote...

No, you can't compare those two. The other is about bringing back someone that has already died, he has lived his life once. He was -dead-. Taking someone like that and putting a chip in them to keep them in check, can't be compared to using a technology that has in almost all cases backfired on those who tried to use it. In this case it's even being handed over to TIM, who has proven on more than one occasion that he can't be trusted. Which Miri seemed to think at that point as well.


Well put.

#13818
Arijharn

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flemm wrote...

Pretty much all of the material in the game for Miranda is devoted to developing other aspects of her character than the one that wants to put a control chip in Shepard's brain.

Right, but this means that this part of her character isn't really changing or 'developing' as you pointed out quite handidly with the whole 'other aspects' statement.

flemm wrote...
However, if she had had her way, I doubt Shepard would have been revived at all, thus there would have been no question of a control chip.

What makes you say that? He (or she) is, after all, 'a bloody icon.' One that the other species respect (maybe even fear a little depending on your playthrough). Shephard is just a beacon that the other races can presumably rally behind and while there may be little worth to it when push comes to shove, there is still worth to it.

flemm wrote...
In the case of CB, getting rid of it is not a naive choice, at least not in any obvous way, all aspects of the situation considered. Keeping it and trusting TIM to use it appropriately is arguably the more naive choice.

Arguable, perhaps, but there is no clear-cut preference here, where pure pragmatism is concerned.

I don't want to turn this into yet another one of those threads, but from that 'pure pragmatic' approach it is pretty naive to just destroy the base, simply because we aren't at the technology curve (at the time of ME2 at least) to adequately combat the Reapers when they arrive as evidenced by EDI's statement during the game and by our own experience (borderline meta-game knowledge; but that could be rectified in universe afterwards by Shephard reading after action reports etc) of the Battle of the Citadel cinematic when Sovereign almost single-handedly rips through the fleet to the point where in ME2 the Systems Alliance is to the point of rebuilding.

Without some sort of plan (even if it is just sketch work) to serve as some sort of adequate foundation to start a building block, it isn't pragmatic at all to nigh shoot yourself in the foot and hope for a miracle otherwise. 

This is what I expected Miranda to voice to some degree. It's okay if she later told me her own private thoughts and even misgivings about the issue when we're at a more relaxed and informal situation but then and there I expect her to have a more 'even handed' approach.

I agree that it's ridiculous to just blindly trust Cerberus without a hint of hesitation, but at the end of the day they are as threatened by the Reapers as the rest of us (that was at least my thought when I finished ME2, and I think I would be stubborn regardless in ME3 even if they *are* working with the Reapers, because I can still think that I pursued any and all leads)

#13819
Omega4RelayResident

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HogarthHughes 3 wrote...

/delurk :bandit:

You oughtta talk to Wrex more, he has some cool stories to share.  He already tried to unite the Krogan once before (guiding them down a "gentler" path as he is in ME2) however he was opposed by a Warlord from the Krogan Rebellions.  To avoid ruining any surprises more than I already have, I'll just say that it goes badly and Wrex becomes disillusioned with the Krogan.

/lurk :bandit:


He wasnt doing anything at the time that I met him. Shep's actions and presence gave Wrex the hope for a second chance at his plans.

#13820
Caihn

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Melrache wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Melrache wrote...
And you can't even compare those two things. Chip and Base, there's nothing naive about not using the base. It's decision solely based on previous experiences. It's silly to even think they're somehow comparable.

Sorry but you're wrong here. Apodictically claiming that there's nothing of value in the base (which by her failure to mention it Miranda appears to do) just because it's morally repugnant is the hallmark of the naive idealist.

BTW even my most idealist Shepard would keep the base. It appears we have a serious case of cognitive dissonance here.


No, you can't compare those two. The other is about bringing back someone that has already died, he has lived his life once. He was -dead-. Taking someone like that and putting a chip in them to keep them in check, can't be compared to using a technology that has in almost all cases backfired on those who tried to use it. In this case it's even being handed over to TIM, who has proven on more than one occasion that he can't be trusted. Which Miri seemed to think at that point as well.


Exactly.

#13821
Ieldra

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flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Sorry but you're wrong here. Apodictically claiming that there's nothing of value in the base (which by her failure to mention it Miranda appears to do) just because it's morally repugnant is the hallmark of the naive idealist.

Here you are really stretching what she says, while also eliminating the context. She is not giving her opinion on whether or not there is anything at all of value in the base, she's giving her opinion on using it (in the upcoming conflict and beyond). And not just anybody using it, but Cerberus (until this moment, her organisation) and TIM.

That's because her "betrayal" line *is* apodictic, it doesn't allow for any context to enter into it. She doesn't say "Using this base for its intended purpose feels like a betrayal" and she doesn't say "TIM will do something with it I can't support". She also doesn't say "We might find something useful there but it's not worth the side-effects" She just says "Using anything from this base seems like a betrayal." I maintain that in this very situation, only a naive idealist would say that.

I also have a problem with this because I can't see how keeping the base could constitute a betrayal. Nobody has explained that part to my satisfaction yet in a way that I could understand why Miranda feels like that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:23 .


#13822
Omega4RelayResident

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I love how Idealist became a dirty word recently. LOL

I love the Shep end line to TIM: "...I wont let fear compromise who I am" Why did this become a negative thing? I miss the days when people adored chivalry and always doing the right thing. Its true that good intentions MAY not have a good end... but that is not always the case.

#13823
flemm

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@Arijharn, Fair enough, thanks for posting those thoughts, I don't agree on all points, but there is a lot of substance to what you have to say. Maybe I will respond in a little more detail later on if I can find the time.


Ieldra2 wrote...

That's because her "betrayal" line *is* apodictic, it doesn't allow for any context to enter into it.


Sure it does. The line can only really be understood in context, and should be interpreted with that in mind. The reason she doesn't specify "Cerberus using the base," for example, is precisely because, in context, no one else is going to be using it. And, as an additional reason, she habitually equates Cerberus doing something with herself doing something. Hence, just prior to resigning, Miranda speaks one last time as a Cerberus agent.

Modifié par flemm, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:34 .


#13824
Ieldra

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Omega4RelayResident wrote...
I love how Idealist became a dirty word recently. LOL

I love the Shep end line to TIM: "...I wont let fear compromise who I am" Why did this become a negative thing? I miss the days when people adored chivalry and always doing the right thing. Its true that good intentions MAY not have a good end... but that is not always the case.

Idealism is all good and well if you take a calculated risk and the effects should your decision backfire are limited. It's not so good if a backfire might result in extinction. Most of all, I would say it's obligatory that you are aware of the possible backfire. And if you are, there are some idealistic decisions you won't be able to justify. 

If I take the decisions in ME1 and ME2 as they are presented to me - I could make all Paragon decisions except for two: saving the Council and destroying the Collector base. I create additional facts to justify the former in some of my games because I want to see how things play out, but I never take the latter. Those two are the only *incalculable* risks you take, particularly saving the Council if taken as presented risks that Sovereign will have time to open the Dark Space relay. I can't see how anyone can justify that decision without adding details to the scenario.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 septembre 2011 - 02:33 .


#13825
jtav

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I could explain the reasoning behind the line in general terms if anyone wants. It might require some slight Godwinning. Still interested?