82210 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

jtav wrote...
 The chip is relevent here, very much so. She uses two very different kinds of moral reasoning.

Not it isn't. The control chip and the Collector Base are two decisions that are so different on so many levels, from the victims to the results and the duration of the effects, that there's no point in comparing the two.

The closest we have are the experiment on Husks. 

[Omega4RelayResident]

I know this is way off topic but vote for Garrus for the love of mercy! uk.gamespot.com/greatest-video-game-sidekick/vote/battle-hub/index.html

Modifié par Omega4RelayResident, 18 septembre 2011 - 04:56 .

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

jtav wrote...

Not it isn't. The control chip and the Collector Base are two decisions that are so different on so many levels, from the victims to the results and the duration of the effects, that there's no point in comparing the two.

The closest we have are the experiment on Husks.

Easy to discount an argument when you edit out the point in question:

jtav wrote...
My objection is only that her line is a categorical statement when she'd previously been portrayed as a consequentialist.  The chip is relevent here, very much so. She uses two very different kinds of moral reasoning.

The point is the difference between a consequentialist reasoning and a categorical, apodictic statement. Miranda is *never* categorical anywhere (else) in the game. The reasoning behind the control chip is the best example of that, which is why we use it here. But it's apparent in many other situations. Miranda never says or implies that anything is categorically wrong, and she never does so based on sentimentality, except at the CB. That's why we say she should have added a qualifier or made a point about TIM misusing the base. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 septembre 2011 - 04:59 .

[Ieldra]

Omega4RelayResident wrote...
I know this is way off topic but vote for Garrus for the love of mercy! uk.gamespot.com/greatest-video-game-sidekick/vote/battle-hub/index.html

I never vote for Garrus anywhere, except if I could vote him out of the game. Sorry. Even more when HK-47 is the alternative. *gone and voted for HK-47*.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 septembre 2011 - 05:02 .

[flemm]

Interpreting the statement as categorical is one of many possible interpretations and not, imo, a necessary or even especially plausible one. Yes, if you take the statement out of context and read every word literally, it can be interpreted that way. But if you put the statement in context, which is really the only meaningful way to interpret it imo, it becomes clear that she is talking about Cerberus and TIM using the base (which is the same thing, as long as TIM heads the organisation).

Hypothetical considerations, such as someone else using it in a totally different scenario from the one that is actually happening, are, I would argue, completely irrelevant at that moment, which makes it unlikely that Miranda would be referring to them. This is especially true given that Miranda likely knows more about what TIM intends to do than anyone else present.

Would she trust someone else to use the base appropriately? I don't know. I'd be wary of trusting anyone myself, and I expect Miranda would be as well. We're talking about Reaper tech here, which tends to indoctrinate the people who study it. And this particular base has the primary purpose of killing people and melting them down into a raw material. But anyway, in this context, she is pondering the possibility of a specific organisation using it. No one else is in a position to use it.

EDIT: Except possibly the Reapers themselves, which is another reason to destroy it.

Modifié par flemm, 18 septembre 2011 - 05:24 .

[naledgeborn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The trouble is that it sort of has to be vague so as to fit numerous ideas as to why Shepard would destroy the base, but I think "Everything from this base going to Cerberus? I'm not sure..." would do.

That would've been perfectly acceptable. It would put the actual problem where it belongs: not the base itself, but the fact that it will used by Cerberus for very likely horrific experiments. Hmph. Not for the first time I resent the lack of a third option (keep the base, but send a copy of the Reaper IFF to the Council and/or the Alliance).

Yep. Sums up my sentiments perfectly. Miranda discarding the notion that base could be instrumental in defeating the Reapers is a 180 degree turn from Miranda who's willing to implant Shepard with a control chip. The base is not the problem after all (as horrific as it seems) it's only data. The problem is who would be utilizing that data and to what ends. If she doesn't trust Cerberus or TIM with the base she should have just said so.

Again I bring up the Derelict Reaper line from... Shepard no less.
"I'd hate to lose this thing. We need all the information on the Reapers we can get."

Something like that but also acknowledging that Cerberus is untrustworty would have been infinitely better than... 
"seems like a betrayal."

Disclaimer: No I'm not a Cerberus fan boy. They have their purpose, but that doesn't mean I trust them or TIM with the fate of the galaxy. My fullblown Renegade even blew up the base. A 3rd "middle" option should have been available.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Interpreting the statement as categorical is one of many possible interpretations and not, imo, a necessary or even especially plausible one. Yes, if you take the statement out of context and read every word literally, it can be interpreted that way. But if you put the statement in context, which is really the only meaningful way to interpret it imo, it becomes clear that she is talking about Cerberus and TIM using the base (which is the same thing, as long as TIM heads the organisation).

I applaud your attempt to reconcile the line with her character, but "using anything from this base seems like a betrayal" doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation. There is context you can imply to be present - such as that it's about Cerberus doing things - but also context you can't imply. Particularly "Using anything...." specifically discounts any context-dependent qualification, any way to account for the fact that it's possible to benefit from the base without doing things like melting down humans. As I said, if that was intended to be her concern, the line is excessively bad writing.

And that doesn't even account for the fact there's still not the slightest hint of acknowledgment for the strategic value of the base in her statement. You can't discount that this absence is totally unlike the mission-focused Miranda. I can see her finding a line she won't cross, but I can't see her doing it without being conflicted about it. 

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I applaud your attempt to reconcile the line with her character, but "using anything from this base seems like a betrayal" doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.

 
Sure it does. What we're getting here is a piece of a longer discussion with TIM. It's only when you take the line out of that context that it becomes plausible to interpret it as categorical. She's talking about whether or not Cerberus/TIM should use the base. I don't think there's any real doubt about that.

Ieldra2 wrote...

And that doesn't even account for the fact there's still not the slightest hint of acknowledgment for the strategic value of the base in her statement. You can't discount that this absence is totally unlike the mission-focused Miranda. I can see her finding a line she won't cross, but I can't see her doing it without being conflicted about it. 

The line does suggest she has been conflicted about it. That's the "I don't know..." part, i.e. "yes, the base might have its uses, but..."

Modifié par flemm, 18 septembre 2011 - 05:38 .

[LexieTheT-Rexy]

Random post totally off subject:
I feel like in the third game, if you have your love interest throughout the game, they should make it more like an actual relationship instead of what they've had.

I was thinking about it searching for Miranda and Shepard pictures on deviantart (which have a crap ton of pictures of other couples in the search -.-), and I feel like the relationships in the game seem more or less like a quick screw before Sheploo is about to go toe to toe with death.

When Miranda is in the game, (and if she gains a position in your squad), I would much rather have the relationship be intimate and real instead of just flirty conversations from across her desk...

I DEMAND MORE HUGS. XD

Modifié par LexieTheT-Rexy, 18 septembre 2011 - 05:45 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I applaud your attempt to reconcile the line with her character, but "using anything from this base seems like a betrayal" doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation.

 
Sure it does. What we're getting here is a piece of a longer discussion with TIM. It's only when you take the line out of that context that it becomes plausible to interpret it as categorical. She's talking about whether or not Cerberus/TIM should use the base. I don't think there's any real doubt about that.

That is not the point. The point is that "Using anything from this base...." specifically discounts that there could be acceptable ways of profiting from the base, by Cerberus or anyone else. And that's not open to interpretation. And that's pretty categorical. 

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
And that doesn't even account for the fact there's still not the slightest hint of acknowledgment for the strategic value of the base in her statement. You can't discount that this absence is totally unlike the mission-focused Miranda. I can see her finding a line she won't cross, but I can't see her doing it without being conflicted about it. 

The line does suggest she has been conflicted about it. That's the "I don't know..." part, i.e. "yes, the base might have its uses, but..."

.....she discounts that on flimsy sentimentalism and categorical reasoning. Yeah, great. So much like Miranda.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 septembre 2011 - 05:47 .

[American Tradegy]

well you can have this kind of realtionship with Kelly in ME2.
if they are going to do the same with squadmates in ME3? I doubt that.
mainly because of the time setting. you're in middle of a war and i kinda doubt that Shepard will find time to have a "deep" realtionship with Miranda, Jack etc.

[LexieTheT-Rexy]

American Tradegy wrote...

well you can have this kind of realtionship with Kelly in ME2.
if they are going to do the same with squadmates in ME3? I doubt that.
mainly because of the time setting. you're in middle of a war and i kinda doubt that Shepard will find time to have a "deep" realtionship with Miranda, Jack etc.

But the fact that you're in the middle of the war would be the whole reason there SHOULD be a real relationship. Even Shepard can't just brush off the fact that only he can direct this war in a way that will defeat the Reapers, and not find someone to help him through the stresses and pure terror of messing up.

[Ieldra]

LexieTheT-Rexy wrote...
Random post totally off subject:
I feel like in the third game, if you have your love interest throughout the game, they should make it more like an actual relationship instead of what they've had.

I was thinking about it searching for Miranda and Shepard pictures on deviantart (which have a crap ton of pictures of other couples in the search -.-), and I feel like the relationships in the game seem more or less like a quick screw before Sheploo is about to go toe to toe with death.

When Miranda is in the game, (and if she gains a position in your squad), I would much rather have the relationship be intimate and real instead of just flirty conversations from across her desk...

I would prefer that, too. I guess the problem is integrating that into the conversation trees so that its absence doesn't invalidate the whole conversation. Romances are optional, after all, so it's much easier to write a few extra conversations, which would then deal with specifically "romantic" situations, than to integrate the romance into every conversation where we would reasonably expect a romantic aspect to be present.

I also don't feel as strongly about the romance in ME2 as you. I think it's reasonably well done for the fact that we have two and a half extra conversations and the engine room scene. I don't like some of the lines, but I don't think it suggests a quick screw before Shepard faces death. You wouldn't have an exchange like the "promise" scene if the relationship didn't mean more.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 septembre 2011 - 05:53 .

[jtav]

Actually, I'd have done everything in my power to portray the relationship as a fling. And then you develop genuine feelings in ME3, much to your mutual surprise and distress.

[LexieTheT-Rexy]

Ieldra2 wrote...

LexieTheT-Rexy wrote...
Random post totally off subject:
I feel like in the third game, if you have your love interest throughout the game, they should make it more like an actual relationship instead of what they've had.

I was thinking about it searching for Miranda and Shepard pictures on deviantart (which have a crap ton of pictures of other couples in the search -.-), and I feel like the relationships in the game seem more or less like a quick screw before Sheploo is about to go toe to toe with death.

When Miranda is in the game, (and if she gains a position in your squad), I would much rather have the relationship be intimate and real instead of just flirty conversations from across her desk...

I would prefer that, too. I guess the problem is integrating that into the conversation trees so that its absence doesn't invalidate the whole conversation. Romances are optional, after all, so it's much easier to write a few extra conversations, which would then deal with specifically "romantic" situations, than to integrate the romance into every conversation where we would reasonably expect a romantic aspect to be present.

I also don't feel as strongly about the romance in ME2 as you. I think it's reasonably well done for the fact that we have two and a half extra conversations and the engine room scene. I don't like some of the lines, but I don't think it suggests a quick screw before Shepard faces death. You wouldn't have an exchange like the "promise" scene if the relationship didn't mean more.

I'm thinking more about ME3 than ME2. Towards the end of the romance, before the suicide mission with the promise scene, and a few others before that, it showed an actual, building relationship. The engine room scene bothered me a tad, only for the fact that it felt to me more or less like they regressed into just a lustful situation instead of one of meaning. But mostly, my attentions are directed to how she is going to be introduced in the third game.

I mean, obviously it was shown that they care for each other, hell, she said she loved him in so many words, and I have a bad feeling like she is just going to show up and Shepard is going to be like "I'm glad you're on the Normandy, we need someone like you for this blah blah blah," instead of the actual reunion of two people who (in my mind) clearly still love each other.

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The point is the difference between a consequentialist reasoning and a categorical, apodictic statement. Miranda is *never* categorical anywhere (else) in the game.
The reasoning behind the control chip is the best example of that, which is why we use it here. But it's apparent in many other situations. Miranda never says or implies that anything is categorically wrong, and she never does so based on sentimentality, except at the CB. That's why we say she should have added a qualifier or made a point about TIM misusing the base. 

Miranda implied that the experiments performed on Pragia were categorically wrong and she did so based on sentimentality. This shows that Miranda does not follow a consequentialism reasoning 100% of the time. 
If there is a single variable between two otherwise extremely similar situations, then a person can have a completely different reaction to the two. And there is nothing similar between the control chip and the Collector Base.

[horvagab]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The implication was "inferior as a person", which Miranda certainly isn't.

That may have not come out right, sorry for that. Or maybe my reasoning was flawed. I think I meant that inferior in a big picture way, but that's not true either. 

My bottom line is that Miranda feels 'normal' next to Shepard, or rather, average. She can trust him because he is at least as competent as she is. She can feel like she has a normal life, and because she knows that her father's methods are not right, there are good and better people out there who emerged on their own strength.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The point is the difference between a consequentialist reasoning and a categorical, apodictic statement. Miranda is *never* categorical anywhere (else) in the game.
The reasoning behind the control chip is the best example of that, which is why we use it here. But it's apparent in many other situations. Miranda never says or implies that anything is categorically wrong, and she never does so based on sentimentality, except at the CB. That's why we say she should have added a qualifier or made a point about TIM misusing the base. 

Miranda implied that the experiments performed on Pragia were categorically wrong and she did so based on sentimentality. This shows that Miranda does not follow a consequentialism reasoning 100% of the time.

No she doesn't imply that. She says "it was a mistake", which doesn't imply *any* moral connotation, even less a categorical one. She might as well have been thinking "the results aren't worth the cost", which is consequentialist.
I also see no hint of sentimentality there, not even empathy with Jack. 

If there is a single variable between two otherwise extremely similar situations, then a person can have a completely different reaction to the two. And there is nothing similar between the control chip and the Collector Base.

From an ethical viewpoint, there is. From a consequentialist viewpoint, In both situations the action (impülanting the chip/keeping the base) is justified by the results, only to different degrees. The base may be the greater evil, but there is also greater justification in the Reaper threat. People usually aren't part-time consequentialists. The most you'll ever hear from a consequentialist is "I can't imagine any circumstance where this would be justifiable". The result may be the same as if categorical judgment is applied, but the thinking is very different.

[jtav]

And I'm still finding new dialogue.

"EDI is running the ship as efficiently as when we had a human crew. I doubt AIs will be replacing humans any time soon, but at least we can finish the mission."

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
And I'm still finding new dialogue.

"EDI is running the ship as efficiently as when we had a human crew. I doubt AIs will be replacing humans any time soon, but at least we can finish the mission."

Don't recall that. Who says that and when? I guess it's when the crew is gone after the Collector attack.

[jtav]

Miranda, if you ask about the Normandy status.

I, um, got the urge to hear her voice. *blushes*

[cyborg2501]

LexieTheT-Rexy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

LexieTheT-Rexy wrote...
Random post totally off subject:
I feel like in the third game, if you have your love interest throughout the game, they should make it more like an actual relationship instead of what they've had.

I was thinking about it searching for Miranda and Shepard pictures on deviantart (which have a crap ton of pictures of other couples in the search -.-), and I feel like the relationships in the game seem more or less like a quick screw before Sheploo is about to go toe to toe with death.

When Miranda is in the game, (and if she gains a position in your squad), I would much rather have the relationship be intimate and real instead of just flirty conversations from across her desk...

I would prefer that, too. I guess the problem is integrating that into the conversation trees so that its absence doesn't invalidate the whole conversation. Romances are optional, after all, so it's much easier to write a few extra conversations, which would then deal with specifically "romantic" situations, than to integrate the romance into every conversation where we would reasonably expect a romantic aspect to be present.

I also don't feel as strongly about the romance in ME2 as you. I think it's reasonably well done for the fact that we have two and a half extra conversations and the engine room scene. I don't like some of the lines, but I don't think it suggests a quick screw before Shepard faces death. You wouldn't have an exchange like the "promise" scene if the relationship didn't mean more.

I'm thinking more about ME3 than ME2. Towards the end of the romance, before the suicide mission with the promise scene, and a few others before that, it showed an actual, building relationship. The engine room scene bothered me a tad, only for the fact that it felt to me more or less like they regressed into just a lustful situation instead of one of meaning. But mostly, my attentions are directed to how she is going to be introduced in the third game.

I mean, obviously it was shown that they care for each other, hell, she said she loved him in so many words, and I have a bad feeling like she is just going to show up and Shepard is going to be like "I'm glad you're on the Normandy, we need someone like you for this blah blah blah," instead of the actual reunion of two people who (in my mind) clearly still love each other.

In relationship-building conversations, I wish they'd at least move the convos to a more intimate/interesting setting. Rather than just "have a few minutes to talk one-on-one?" and chatting in her office (*yawn*) it could be "Want to join me for dinner in the captain's quarters tonight for dinner?" or even if you're orbiting a certain planet, "Want to go visit ____ location on the planet, you told me you had fond memories of it from ____". Then it just moves the whole conversation to that scene, allowing you some one on one time and making the relationship progression more believable. Throw in a nice short cutscene or two and you have better relationships with not that much added effort. 

Call me cheesy, but if they threw in the simple option of being able to say... buy some flowers (or some gift) for her on Ilium and get an extra convo in her office.... I wouldn't be opposed. Not that Miranda would be terribly interested in receiving flowers, but I could see the conversation being pretty funny.. "Oh... thanks... Commander. You know, I've never really been the type to like flowers, but I appreciate your thoughfulness."

[LexieTheT-Rexy]

cyborg2501 wrote...

LexieTheT-Rexy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

LexieTheT-Rexy wrote...
Random post totally off subject:
I feel like in the third game, if you have your love interest throughout the game, they should make it more like an actual relationship instead of what they've had.

I was thinking about it searching for Miranda and Shepard pictures on deviantart (which have a crap ton of pictures of other couples in the search -.-), and I feel like the relationships in the game seem more or less like a quick screw before Sheploo is about to go toe to toe with death.

When Miranda is in the game, (and if she gains a position in your squad), I would much rather have the relationship be intimate and real instead of just flirty conversations from across her desk...

I would prefer that, too. I guess the problem is integrating that into the conversation trees so that its absence doesn't invalidate the whole conversation. Romances are optional, after all, so it's much easier to write a few extra conversations, which would then deal with specifically "romantic" situations, than to integrate the romance into every conversation where we would reasonably expect a romantic aspect to be present.

I also don't feel as strongly about the romance in ME2 as you. I think it's reasonably well done for the fact that we have two and a half extra conversations and the engine room scene. I don't like some of the lines, but I don't think it suggests a quick screw before Shepard faces death. You wouldn't have an exchange like the "promise" scene if the relationship didn't mean more.

I'm thinking more about ME3 than ME2. Towards the end of the romance, before the suicide mission with the promise scene, and a few others before that, it showed an actual, building relationship. The engine room scene bothered me a tad, only for the fact that it felt to me more or less like they regressed into just a lustful situation instead of one of meaning. But mostly, my attentions are directed to how she is going to be introduced in the third game.

I mean, obviously it was shown that they care for each other, hell, she said she loved him in so many words, and I have a bad feeling like she is just going to show up and Shepard is going to be like "I'm glad you're on the Normandy, we need someone like you for this blah blah blah," instead of the actual reunion of two people who (in my mind) clearly still love each other.

In relationship-building conversations, I wish they'd at least move the convos to a more intimate/interesting setting. Rather than just "have a few minutes to talk one-on-one?" and chatting in her office (*yawn*) it could be "Want to join me for dinner in the captain's quarters tonight for dinner?" or even if you're orbiting a certain planet, "Want to go visit ____ location on the planet, you told me you had fond memories of it from ____". Then it just moves the whole conversation to that scene, allowing you some one on one time and making the relationship progression more believable. Throw in a nice short cutscene or two and you have better relationships with not that much added effort. 

Call me cheesy, but if they threw in the simple option of being able to say... buy some flowers (or some gift) for her on Ilium and get an extra convo in her office.... I wouldn't be opposed. Not that Miranda would be terribly interested in receiving flowers, but I could see the conversation being pretty funny.. "Oh... thanks... Commander. You know, I've never really been the type to like flowers, but I appreciate your thoughfulness."

I would love it they do that.

I keep picturing meeting her again in ME3, and the scene that just keeps playing in my head is her coming to your cabin, after you called her up to talk (since you haven't been able to immediately after 'retrieving her' and once she walks into your cabin, she continues to walk to you and just throws her arms around your neck, whispering how much she has missed you.

[jtav]

The VS is now apparently showing up in demos. I think we might be able to make an educated guess about Miranda's squad status based on Kaidan's powerset and how it differs from hers.

[LexieTheT-Rexy]

jtav wrote...

The VS is now apparently showing up in demos. I think we might be able to make an educated guess about Miranda's squad status based on Kaidan's powerset and how it differs from hers.

What if you have Ash?

(Even though, I understand the Sentinel thing)