82210 réponses à ce sujet

[flemm]

TheMarshal wrote...
I feel they could have driven home the point that this is a Suicide Mission a little better.  I don't know HOW exactly, but I believe it is possible.

That's all meta-gaming, really, though. I actually agree with some of it, but I don't think it's especially relevant to discussing the behavior of the characters.

I also don't think that everybody surviving is the most frequent outcome, Bioware has said that only 50% of players even fully upgrade the ship, for example. So, even considering how it usually plays out in the game, people tend to die.

[Eyeshield21]

flemm wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...
I feel they could have driven home the point that this is a Suicide Mission a little better.  I don't know HOW exactly, but I believe it is possible.

That's all meta-gaming, really, though. I actually agree with some of it, but I don't think it's especially relevant to discussing the behavior of the characters.

I also don't think that everybody surviving is the most frequent outcome, Bioware has said that only 50% of players even fully upgrade the ship, for example. So, even considering how it usually plays out in the game, people tend to die.

I'm one of those guys who wants their team to survive, no matter how crazy some are("a-hem-jack) cause that's what I like. some just want to see what happens in ME3(I just hope Miri plays a larger role for the game)

[Dr. Doctor]

I agree with the statement that Arrival seemed more like a Suicide Mission than the trip through the Omega-4 relay. While death was a possibility Arrival presents Shepard with a true no-win scenario.

Even with the successful delay of the Reaper Invasion, Shepard's still going to stand trial for the destruction of an inhabited system and whatever charges he has against him for appearing after two years of being dead. There's no legal defense for charges like that.

It looks like the only thing that's keeping Shepard from a prison cell is the fact that the Reapers are invading.

[flemm]

Eyeshield21 wrote...
I'm one of those guys who wants their team to survive, no matter how crazy some are("a-hem-jack) cause that's what I like. some just want to see what happens in ME3(I just hope Miri plays a larger role for the game)

That's cool. My point was that, from an in-game perspective, they are about to do something really, really unprecedented and dangerous. If Bioware failed in communicating a sense of tension to the players, or at least to certain players, then that is a bit of a separate issue.

Dr. Doctor wrote...
It looks like the only thing that's keeping Shepard from a prison cell is the fact that the Reapers are invading.

The Reapers are the real threat, though, to the point that the trial itself would probably seem more like a ridiculous distraction. Shepard knows they're coming and, with them, extinction for all organic life. So I'm not sure that, from the character's perspective, the events of Arrival would fill him with greater dread and foreboding than he would have previously felt.

Modifié par flemm, 20 septembre 2011 - 02:41 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Looks like Yvonne/Miranda has some of those Renegade eye implants herself as well.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
On occasion it will, just as it goes badly for governments. That's why those in leadership positions have to come down harshly on those who go over the line.

That kind of gets back to the whole oversight and accountability issue, and why there needs to be some.

I guess that's the one issue I have with the whole idea of Miranda basically restarting Cerberus under her leadership. It's a compelling idea for a few reasons, but on another level I'm not sure it represents real progress or even a plausible decision.

One problem is that accountability isn't possible without transparence, and by its nature, such an organization cannot be transparent to its members so adherence to rules can only be enforced by the leaders. If there is also no transparency to any legitimate external authority you get the old problem of "who controls the rulers". Miranda would effectively be an absolute ruler. Which I wouldn't mind but the question is what happens after Miranda. What kind of mechanism would prevent another Illusive Man from assuming leadership?

One thing that seems to work rather well in RL is a council-like structure of the leadership. You'd have the head who sets the goals of the organization, supported by a small council of cell leaders, so to speak. The council would have the right to investigate any operation, and differring interests would ensure that there are always a few people who wouldn't profit from an operation crossing too many lines. No, it's not perfect, but a democratic structure would defeat the purpose so it's out of the question.






 

[Ieldra]

jreezy wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...
I agree with the statement that Arrival seemed more like a Suicide Mission than the trip through the Omega-4 relay. While death was a possibility Arrival presents Shepard with a true no-win scenario.

Even with the successful delay of the Reaper Invasion, Shepard's still going to stand trial for the destruction of an inhabited system and whatever charges he has against him for appearing after two years of being dead. There's no legal defense for charges like that.

It looks like the only thing that's keeping Shepard from a prison cell is the fact that the Reapers are invading.

Prison? He probably would've gotten executed.

You're assuming they still have the death penalty. I don't see that as given.

[Ieldra]

Skullheart wrote...
well, I made some poses featuring Shep and miri on XNALara. Don't know if I should post them. One is kind of erotic, the others are fluff.

I would like to see them. The erotic one, too (though possibly you can't embed it here, only link it).

As for Miranda pictures, you can make an almost unlimited number of screenshots in the game, but most of those wouldn't look good. Those that do look good get re-posted here. That's all we can do for now.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I'm going to say something controversial: I think the romance works better if Arrival is completed before the SM. The relationship has always been the most outwardly casual. I'm not calling it a fling, but there's less earnestness and more playfulness and focus on the logistics of sex. Even the engine room scene is pretty light and playful, despite what the situation would seemingly call for. It's mood whiplash that doesn't really work and Shepard comes off as a bit of an ass incapable of showing worry. Unless...his death is inevitable. All the badassery in the world won't make the trial outcome different, and they'd both know it. Win or lose at the CB, there's no future here. Far better for at least one of them to pretend this is less serious than it is. Maybe then, you won't get hurt. And why mope about your impending execution. Deflect, deflect, deflect.

And then, against all odds, you're spared. Now what?

Hmm. I was never concerned overmuch with this aspect of the situation. For me the SM works as a background threat, and I put the creepiness of the engine room scene (which is because of the absence of the crew) down to a design oversight. I don't need to rationalize it.

Also, that trial will always remind me of Tali's LM, where Shepard's badassery wins the day against all plausibility. It was a cop-out. The only way to get Tali exonerated should have been to present the evidence. *That* would have been a meaningful decision. Who's to say our SuperShep won't do the same thing at his own trial. No, the SM works better for me. Shepard even acknowledges it if you select "no promises".

If I want to avoid the engine room scene and its implications, I'll delay the romance at the last conversation and hope I can pick it up again in ME3. Shepard's trial reminds me too much of why I don't like the Alliance. Damned hypocrites.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...
I feel they could have driven home the point that this is a Suicide Mission a little better.  I don't know HOW exactly, but I believe it is possible.

That's all meta-gaming, really, though. I actually agree with some of it, but I don't think it's especially relevant to discussing the behavior of the characters.

I also don't think that everybody surviving is the most frequent outcome, Bioware has said that only 50% of players even fully upgrade the ship, for example. So, even considering how it usually plays out in the game, people tend to die.

Only 50%? That would explain the average two deaths on the SM (I think it was about 1.7). I'm beginning to think that they put planet scanning in to make more people die in the SM. Ship upgrades cost a lot of resources and their benefit is not apparent until the SM...

But in the end I don't understand the non-completionist mindset. Decisions that require skipping content are always the hardest for me to make. At least you don't lose much if you skip an upgrade. I've heard that "not many" xbox players did Miranda's LM (as opposed to Grunt's). Now that's completely incomprehensible. Apparently I'm a typical  PC player since I like Miranda's LM and dislike Grunt's but I always do both.   

[Made Nightwing]

LexieTheT-Rexy wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Skullheart wrote...

well, I made some poses featuring Shep and miri on XNALara. Don't know if I should post them. One is kind of erotic, the others are fluff.

I think you should post them.

As do I.

Nerd Herd Approval?:



Even though I messed up here and there.

Kal'Reegar: Looks like it's time for plan B.

[jtav]

They do have the death penalty. Treason is referred to as a capital offense, And the specter of the trial works better for me because the situation is actually hopeless. The reason for Shep going on trial is to prevent war. The batarians would only be satisfied by the maximum penalty permitted by law. Even Tali's trial was really a contest between two factions. Shepard *must* be found guilty or the batarians will cry foul. Shepard is saved pretty much by Act of Reaper. The SM just doesn't feel hopeless enough. And only that absolute hopelessness can justify the romance as written in my mind.

[elearon1]

flemm wrote...

I also don't think that everybody surviving is the most frequent outcome,

I don't know, when we had a thread here a month or less ago, asking forumites what had happened to their companions, the vast majority of them survived the Suicide Mission ... it really wasn't what I'd been hoping for from a mission that they'd put so much enphasis on in the game - kept telling us we wouldn't all make it back and for which people were putting their things in order.   I had to play a second playthrough where I let some of my crew get killed just so the mission felt like it was the hugely difficult suicidal effort to save humanity that it had been made out as.  Actually having 4 coffins to cast overboard at the funeral scene added weight and integrity to the mission. 

I really hope we'll get some references to dead companions in dailogue in the 3rd game, I'd hate to feel those sacrifices meant nothing. 

[Sebby]

Here's something I also posted in the TIM thread...

TIMXMirandaXSheploo

[flemm]

elearon1 wrote...

I don't know, when we had a thread here a month or less ago, asking forumites what had happened to their companions, the vast majority of them survived the Suicide Mission ...

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me, but as with everything, these forums give a bit of a warped view of what the player base as a whole is doing in the game. Posters here are more likely to be familiar with the types of choices presented by Bioware in these games, their potential consequences, the importance of ship upgrades and similar mechanics. AND the players here are more likely to care about the characters surviving overall.

So, yeah, most players here probably brought all the characters through unless they intentionally decided to do otherwise for specific reasons. But overall? Even the ship upgrade issue would ensure a death or two in a lot of games.

It's rather tangential to the original point, though, which was whether the risk involved in the SM, from an in-game perspective, is sufficient for Miranda and Shep to decide they'd like to enjoy each other's company in the engine room rather than focus on the future implications of their budding relationship.

Modifié par flemm, 20 septembre 2011 - 01:46 .

[Ieldra]

The statistics collected by Bioware said that on average, around 13% of the team members didn't survive. That would make a little less than two deaths per playthrough on average. Which makes me an average player, LOL. Except that in my case all but one of the deaths were intentional.

[jtav]

Let's see: I have everything from perfect games to Jack and Morinth only surviving. No one has been spared.

[flemm]

elearon1 wrote...
I really hope we'll get some references to dead companions in dailogue in the 3rd game, I'd hate to feel those sacrifices meant nothing.

This is a good point, by the way, I would really like to see this. It will be interesting, also, to see how certain characters' absence affects plot developments and choices.

For example, if Tali or Legion dies, will that affect the recruitability of the quarians and geth? Does Mordin dying reduce your options in dealing with the Krogan?

With Miranda, I suppose you might have fewer options in dealing with Cerberus or counteracting side-effects of the Lazarus Project.

Modifié par flemm, 20 septembre 2011 - 04:11 .

[raziel1980]

I usually wind up keeping everyone alive...though in one playthrough on the PS3.... I had Mordin( because I didn't let him escort the crew back to the Normandy...figured because he was loyal he would live...) n Zaeed( because I decided to try him as the second team leader instead of Jacob) die.

[American Tradegy]

I have about 3 no one left behind playthroughs
and all the others have mostly between 3-5 casulties

[jtav]

Another bit of headcanoning I do when I romance is to put off her LM until after Grunt's. Shep is usually a Sole Survivor. He is about as happy as you'd expect being stuck with Cerberus. But...Ash called him a traitor. Liara is distant. And now Wrex has forced him into reliving Akuze. Who saves him? Miranda. That causes him to reevaluate things. And then, he's taking special trips to Illium for her, and before you know it, there's cuddling.