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[Xilizhra]

The actions are Teltion were not sanctioned by Cerberus.

You actually believe that, then?

The Council could have stepped in and stopped the Krogan.

Unlikely. The rachni hadn't surrendered in any case; they couldn't, but I'm not sure if they knew that.

The Salarian uplifted the Krogan before time without thinking about the consequences of giving cave men nuclear weapons.

Did they have time? An alternative? Of course, it was probably an error, but I'm not sure if there was a better option.

When the Krogan proved to be troublesome, they neutered them and didn't seek to correct the violent tendencies of the species, instead leaving them to a slow extinction.

Actually, the STG was monitoring the krogan to make sure it didn't get out of hand. However, although changing the krogan would be ideal, I'm not sure if it's the Council's obligation to do so. The krogan brought the fallout of the Rebellions on themselves.

Also, there was that time the council threatened to bomb the new Quarian homeworld unless they vacated the planet in favor of the Elcor.

The one the quarians effectively stole? You can't just land on a planet and start colonizing it.

Or that time where the Council didn't care that human colonies were dissapearing.

Terminus Systems colonies. You know the Council can't do anything official there. And they sent the STG covertly to investigate the situation.

[Sepewrath]

Xilizhra wrote...
The krogan were acting independently when they wiped out the rachni, the genophage was the only way to defeat the krogan without wiping them out in turn and the only reason the krogan are going extinct anyway is their own actions, and while BAaT was bad, it wasn't nearly as bad.

They allowed the Krogan to do what they did, they could have intervened and stopped it, but it was convenient, so they just turned a blind eye, so they could say "We didn't tell them to do it, they did it on their own" And while its fully understandable that they used the genophage to beat the Krogan, they have made no effort to help them get pass, the reasons they need to keep it. The Krogan finishing themselves off, is another convenience they are willing to turn a blind eye to. When it comes Baat, "not as bad" is not good. Its like you give them the base and they say "Cerberus would have killed millions with this, we'll stop at a million"

Modifié par Sepewrath, 25 septembre 2011 - 10:53 .

[jtav]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Was chatting with Weekes and he sent me this by mistake, thought I'd post it here:

twitter.com/#!/PatrickWeekes/status/118088396236267520
"Not everyone can rejoin, from both story logic and game development perspective. But hope we've done justice to characters."

Well, Miranda has logical reasons for both. We'll see.

[Vertigo_1]

jtav wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Was chatting with Weekes and he sent me this by mistake, thought I'd post it here:

twitter.com/#!/PatrickWeekes/status/118088396236267520
"Not everyone can rejoin, from both story logic and game development perspective. But hope we've done justice to characters."

Well, Miranda has logical reasons for both. We'll see.

There's also this:

twitter.com/#!/PatrickWeekes/status/118088598212972544
"What squad mates are you taking this time?"

"Sorry, think I replied to someone else, meant to ping you. Can't say -- answer tells too much of who shows up how much."

/speculation mode on:

He would have said if it was the squadmates that we know so far...could it be an ME2 exclusive squadmate?

/Speculation mode off:

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 25 septembre 2011 - 10:57 .

[Xilizhra]

Sepewrath wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The krogan were acting independently when they wiped out the rachni, the genophage was the only way to defeat the krogan without wiping them out in turn and the only reason the krogan are going extinct anyway is their own actions, and while BAaT was bad, it wasn't nearly as bad.

They allowed the Krogan to do what they did, they could have intervened and stopped it, but it was convenient, so they just turned a blind eye, so they could say "We didn't tell them to do it, they did it on their own" And while its fully understandable that they used the genophage to beat the Krogan, they have made no effort to help them get pass, the reasons they need to keep it. The Krogan finishing themselves off, is another convenience they are willing to turn a blind eye to. When it comes Baat, "not as bad" is not good. Its like you give them the base and they say "Cerberus would have killed millions with this, we'll stop at a million"

I think everyone responsible for BAaT is out of commission at the moment. It wasn't even run by the Alliance, but by Conatix, and I think they kept everything well under wraps.
As for the krogan, the rachni could never have surrendered; I think that might be why the krogan were allowed to do that. I'm also not 100% sure that keeping the krogan alive is really the Council's business, since it's the krogan continuing perpetual warfare that's killing them, not any external factors.

[Vertigo_1]

twitter.com/#!/PatrickWeekes/status/118096730133757953
"If I may ask, are you writting Miranda for #ME3? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you wrote parts of her for #ME2"

"Sorry -- should probably avoid specifics before I forget what we've confirmed already and get self busted. :)"


Heh I had to give it a shot and ask, oh well...

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:00 .

[jtav]

Vertigo, my brain isn't working atm. So, basically he confirmed not all ME2 squaddies will be back? Is that what you think he was saying?

[Vertigo_1]

jtav wrote...

Vertigo, my brain isn't working atm. So, basically he confirmed not all ME2 squaddies will be back? Is that what you think he was saying?

No, he said not all ME2 squadmates will be able to join us in ME3 as squadmates..which we know if you think about the DLC characters from ME2

From that tweet I'm speculating that right now he might be playing a level in ME3 with any of  ME2 squadmates (1 or both) ...hope this makes sense

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:05 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
You actually believe that, then?

The videologs found in the facility prove it. It's not just TIM's word.

Unlikely. The rachni hadn't surrendered in any case; they couldn't, but I'm not sure if they knew that.

The Council quarantined the Yahg. They could have done the same to the Rachni, instead they destroyed the entire race.

Actually, the STG was monitoring the krogan to make sure it didn't get out of hand.

To make sure they didn't recuperate, you mean. The Krogan should count themselves lucky Mordin was there.

However, although changing the krogan would be ideal, I'm not sure if it's the Council's obligation to do so. The krogan brought the fallout of the Rebellions on themselves.

Of course it is their obligation. If they presume to rule over the Galaxy, they better be ready to deal with the problems of all races, even the more troublesome ones.

The one the quarians effectively stole? You can't just land on a planet and start colonizing it.

Considering that the quarians are homeless, I think a more lenient action was called for. It just proves that the Council is self-serving.

Terminus Systems colonies. You know the Council can't do anything official there.

And that's one of the reasons Cerberus is better than the Council or the Alliance. They didn't care which colonies were dissapearing, they actually did something about it, like the Alliance should have.

And they sent the STG covertly to investigate the situation.

And when Kirrahe asked permission to do something about the situation, he was denied.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:18 .

[jtav]

Sorry. Assume when I say "back" I mean as a squaddie. But yeah, we knew some would be relegated to cameos. My money;s still on Legion being full-time.

[Vertigo_1]

jtav wrote...

Sorry. Assume when I say "back" I mean as a squaddie. But yeah, we knew some would be relegated to cameos. My money;s still on Legion being full-time.

He could be playing a level with a temp squadmate (only there for the mission LotSB style)

I thought your money was on Jack before?
What changed?

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:15 .

[General User]

The thing about comparing the Council to Cerberus is that the Council is on the top of the galactic heap and seeking to maintain is position while Cerberus is representative of a faction desperately jockeying for advantage. One shouldn't expect their actions to neatly map.

That said, I think it's fairly obvious that the Council can be just as ruthless and brutal as Cerberus under the right circumstances.

[jtav]

Well, I change my mind a lot. But right now I think human ME2 squaddies won't return. Although, you'd think it would be one of the ones we haven't seen yet that is on-squad.

I'm too busy worrying whether I'll like Miranda to worry about the size of her role.

[Xilizhra]

The videologs found in the facility prove it. It's not just TIM's word.

The videologs prove something. They also said that TIM wouldn't care as soon as they had results. To me, this says that TIM wouldn't have any moral problems with this, only that they were burning out subjects too quickly. And that's if he wasn't keeping an eye on them like he does everyone else: I think he just gave some rules to the scientists so that they'd break them carefully. And the project did get results, after all.

The Council quarantined the Yahg. They could have done the same to the Rachni, instead they destroyed the entire race.

The yahg were capable of communication.

To make sure they didn't recuperate, you mean. The Krogan should count themselves lucky Mordin was there.

That too. The krogan clearly aren't capable of galactic coexistence at this point in time.

Of course it is their obligation. If they presume to rule over the Galaxy, they better be ready to deal with the problems of all races, even the more troublesome ones.

Even wholly self-imposed ones?

Considering that the quarians are homeless, I think a more lenient action was called for. It just proves that the Council is self-serving.

You may think so.

And that's one of the reasons Cerberus is better than the Council or the Alliance. They didn't care which colonies were dissapearing, they actually did something about it, like the Alliance should have.

Cerberus is utterly self-serving. That their actions ever help anyone is only a pleasant coincidence.

[Sepewrath]

Xilizhra wrote...
I think everyone responsible for BAaT is out of commission at the moment. It wasn't even run by the Alliance, but by Conatix, and I think they kept everything well under wraps.
As for the krogan, the rachni could never have surrendered; I think that might be why the krogan were allowed to do that. I'm also not 100% sure that keeping the krogan alive is really the Council's business, since it's the krogan continuing perpetual warfare that's killing them, not any external factors.

BAat was done with the support of the Alliance and then it was covered up by the Alliance. And the Krogan are their responsibility, they uplifted them, let them do their fighting and then put them on the path to extinction. The Council has dictated this species direction for the last couple thousand years, its like taking a kid who cant swim and throwing them in the deep end; it is your responsibility to make sure they don't drown. The Krogan didn't choose this path themselves, the Council chose it for them and now their just watching them sink in that pool.

[Xilizhra]

The Krogan didn't choose this path themselves, the Council chose it for them and now their just watching them sink in that pool.

The Council only chose the krogan's path to defeat the rachni. The Krogan Rebellions and their accompanying downfall was their own doing.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The videologs prove something. They also said that TIM wouldn't care as soon as they had results. To me, this says that TIM wouldn't have any moral problems with this, only that they were burning out subjects too quickly. And that's if he wasn't keeping an eye on them like he does everyone else: I think he just gave some rules to the scientists so that they'd break them carefully. And the project did get results, after all.

And to me it means that after the project was concluded, the damage would have already been done. Might as well use Jack. As evidenced by his demands from Project Overlord, TIM likes to have things done quickly.
BTW, great results. They did create Humanity's most powerful biotic but she became a criminal

The yahg were capable of communication.

They didn't need to comunicate with the Rachni to impose a quarantine.

That too. The krogan clearly aren't capable of galactic coexistence at this point in time.

Because the Council didn't care enough. In two years, Wrex has done more than the Council did in centuries. 

Even wholly self-imposed ones?

Not wholly. The Salarians uplifted the Krogan, they should have been ready to deal with the consequences.

Cerberus is utterly self-serving. That their actions ever help anyone is only a pleasant coincidence.

Cerberus is utterly selfless. Their work ultimately protects and advances all of humanity.
The only self-serving people on Cerberus are those who join out of xenophobia.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I wonder what conclusions he'd draw from this thread?

I shudder to think...

On a more serious note, I think he would conclude that Miranda has a very divided fanbase. Principal areas of disagreement: moral outlook, fan servicey elements (including appearance), future relationship with Cerberus, Collector Base, significance and nature of Miranda's character arc in ME2.

Mordin-esque conclusion: So many opinions. Hard to please everyone. Not going to happen. Shouldn't try  

Modifié par flemm, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:37 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The Council only chose the krogan's path to defeat the rachni. The Krogan Rebellions and their accompanying downfall was their own doing.

The Council uplifted the Krogan before they were ready. And when it became obvious that the krogan race needed guidance if it was  to co-exist with the other races, they released the genophage and washed their hands off it.
The genophage should have been a temporary solution at best.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:40 .

[Xilizhra]

And to me it means that after the project was concluded, the damage would have already been done. Might as well use Jack. As evidenced by his demands from Project Overlord, TIM likes to have things done quickly.
BTW, great results. They did create Humanity's most powerful biotic but she became a criminal

I think Cerberus recycled it to use in the Alliance's Ascension project.

They didn't need to comunicate with the Rachni to impose a quarantine.

I doubt we know enough about the circumstances of the war to condemn the Council on this matter.

Because the Council didn't care enough. In two years, Wrex has done more than the Council did in centuries.

So you expect the Council to be all nice and friendly and conciliatory toward the krogan after the krogan tried to wipe them out? This seems less than realistic.

Not wholly. The Salarians uplifted the Krogan, they should have been ready to deal with the consequences.

They did.

Cerberus is utterly selfless. Their work ultimately protects and advances all of humanity.
The only self-serving people on Cerberus are those who join out of xenophobia.

Have we ever encountered a Cerberus member who didn't have that motivation, outside of the handpicked Lazarus cell members?
As for all of humanity... hmm, let's see. The Akuze squad, no... Kahoku and his people, no... everyone involved in Teltin, no... and so it goes from there.

The Council uplifted the Krogan before they were ready. And when it became obvious that the krogan race needed guidance if it was to co-exist with the other races, they released the genophage and washed their hands off it.
The genophage should have been a temporary solution at best.

The krogan would likely never accept guidance.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:41 .

[flemm]

Vertigo_1 wrote...
From that tweet I'm speculating that right now he might be playing a level in ME3 with any of ME2 squadmates (1 or both) ...hope this makes sense

You lost me with that last point, actually, Vertigo. Is there some other tweet about a specific level of the game?

EDIT: nvm. Got it from Twitter. Thanks, though.

Modifié par flemm, 25 septembre 2011 - 11:45 .

[General User]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The Council only chose the krogan's path to defeat the rachni. The Krogan Rebellions and their accompanying downfall was their own doing.

The Council uplifted the Krogan before they were ready. And when it became obvious that the krogan race needed guidance if it was  to co-exist with the other races, they released the genophage and washed their hands off it.

I'm not sure if it's fair to say the Council just washed their hands of the krogan.  Afterall the krogan homesystem is under Council military occupation to this day. 

I would characterize the Council's policy vis-a-vis the krogan more along the lines of, as the Americans say, 'keeping them in the bullpen.'  Keeping the krogan contained but still in a position that they could brought back, should the need arise. 

Pet theory of mine:  The Council and or the STG already has a cure for the genophage and are keeping it "on ice" as a carrot to dangle in front of the krogan / means of revitalizing the hoard should the galaxy ever again face a "rachni-esque" threat.

Modifié par General User, 26 septembre 2011 - 12:03 .

[Sepewrath]

The Krogan Rebellion is their fault too, if the Council had taken the time to care about how the Krogans treated their own planet and just what kind of people they were. They would have known not to uplift them, but they had an immediate problem and needed an immediate solution. Its like Mordin said, you give nukes to a caveman, what do you expect to happen?

If your answer is anything other "absolute f***ing disaster" then your actively trying to avoid the obvious. There would have been no Krogan rebellions, if they had left them on Tuchanka and solved their own problems. But they didn't, so its their fault.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
I doubt we know enough about the circumstances of the war to condemn the Council on this matter.

I think you are wrong. We know enough.

So you expect the Council to be all nice and friendly and conciliatory toward the krogan after the krogan tried to wipe them out? This seems less than realistic.

Not at all. The Council races had all the rights to defend themselves when the Krogan attacked and the genophage was a good way to end the war. However, afterwards, there should have been a real effort from the Council races to rebuild and reshape the Krogan race.
Instead, they condemned them to a slow extinction.

They did.

Please, elaborate.

Have we ever encountered a Cerberus member who didn't have that motivation, outside of the handpicked Lazarus cell members?

The Illusive Man, Gavin Archer, Paul Grayson, the people involved in the projects we encountered in ME1, etc.

The Akuze squad, no...

I agree that they should have used a pirate gang and not Alliance soldiers but we simply don't know enough about the Akuze project.
 

Kahoku

Kahoku got too close so he had to be eliminated. The Alliance would have done the exact same thing.

everyone involved in Teltin,

Sacrifices for the greater good though, I do wonder if the pay off would have been worth all those sacrifices

The krogan would likely never accept guidance.

And it's exactly those violent tendencies that would made them refuse guidance that should have been altered. It was a perfect opportunity, either change or go extinct. Wrex's actions in ME2 prove that the Krogan can and should have been guided towards a better future after the Krogan Rebellions.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 septembre 2011 - 12:01 .

[Barquiel]

Sepewrath wrote...

If your answer is anything other "absolute f***ing disaster" then your actively trying to avoid the obvious. There would have been no Krogan rebellions, if they had left them on Tuchanka and solved their own problems. But they didn't, so its their fault.

That's true. There would have been no Krogan rebellions without the uplifting. Why? Because the asari, the salarians AND the krogan would have been extinguished.