82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Sepewrath]

Oh I wasn't expecting that response I knew someone would say that, what proof do you have? First off, its only been hinted that it was the Reapers pulling the strings. But lets just say it was, the Salarians and Asari would have been wiped out, not the Krogan, the Reapers would have no reason to kill them, because they didn't know about the mass relays. Next, the Salarians looked for the easy way to win, maybe they could have won, it would have taken some actual warfare ingenuity, but it wasn't impossible for them to win on their own. They just took the easier route. But worst case scenario, they die, they shouldn't have sucked and that wouldn't have happened lol.

[Xilizhra]

If your answer is anything other "absolute f***ing disaster" then your actively trying to avoid the obvious. There would have been no Krogan rebellions, if they had left them on Tuchanka and solved their own problems. But they didn't, so its their fault.

And then the rachni may well have killed everyone.

Not at all. The Council races had all the rights to defend themselves when the Krogan attacked and the genophage was a good way to end the war. However, afterwards, there should have been a real effort from the Council races to rebuild and reshape the Krogan race.
Instead, they condemned them to a slow extinction.

No they didn't. The krogan just needed a cultural shift, which they've finally gotten, assuming Wrex survived.

Please, elaborate.

Via the genophage.

The Illusive Man, Gavin Archer, Paul Grayson, the people involved in the projects we encountered in ME1, etc.

Why do you think the ME1 people weren't xenophobes?

I agree that they should have used a pirate gang and not Alliance soldiers but we simply don't know enough about the Akuze project.

We know enough that it was unnecessarily torturous.

Kahoku got too close so he had to be eliminated. The Alliance would have done the exact same thing.

Irrelevant. As the project itself was corrupt, as Cerberus itself is corrupt, everything done in its defense is corrupt.

Sacrifices for the greater good though, I do wonder if the pay off would have been worth all those sacrifices

It's not nearly a sufficiently measurable greater good to justify it.

And it's exactly those violent tendencies that would made them refuse guidance that should have been altered. It was a perfect opportunity, either change or go extinct. Wrex's actions in ME2 prove that the Krogan can and should have been guided towards a better future after the Krogan Rebellions.

We shall see. If all Wrex does is unite the krogan to attack Citadel space again...

[Barquiel]

Sepewrath wrote...

Oh I wasn't expecting that response I knew someone would say that, what proof do you have?

the codex

Though now extinct, the rachni once threatened every species in Citadel space.

This period saw the Citadel races fight a losing war against the rachni for nearly a century until the salarians "culturally uplifted" a new species, the krogan.


I guess we are far off topic by now...

[General User]

The thing about Akuze is it really hinges on wether or not the Alliance/Cerberus actually knew what a thresher maw was and/or knew anything about them.

Afterall, if all you know is that something potentially dangerous has been causing a disturbance out in the boondocks, then I say sending out a platoon of armed Marines to recon the area is a rational response.

[jtav]

Though nothing can excuse what happened to Toombs. Sometimes I wish Miranda had been tangentially connected to that.

[Vertigo_1]

jtav wrote...

Though nothing can excuse what happened to Toombs. Sometimes I wish Miranda had been tangentially connected to that.

Is there any evidence to say she wasn't?

The writers could add that for her to reveal in ME3...

[jtav]

I think the time for that was when she was the Loyalist, not now. Besides, I suspect revelations about Lazarus will take precedence in players wanting her hide.

[flemm]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Is there any evidence to say she wasn't?

The writers could add that for her to reveal in ME3...

Given what we see in ME2, it strikes me as unlikely that the original direction for the character in ME3 was toward revelations of that nature. But you never know. These things can change during development. For me personally, I can plausibly see Miranda being written in a number of different ways, including a return to the more ruthless persona of her first appearances. It depends partly on what the story needs tbh.

Or she could reveal something like that, but as a way of showing how her character has evolved since then. Could be interesting.

Modifié par flemm, 26 septembre 2011 - 12:40 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
No they didn't. The krogan just needed a cultural shift, which they've finally gotten, assuming Wrex survived.

The Council should have attempted to give them the cultural shift. Not wait for someone like Wrex to appear.

Via the genophage.

I was hoping for a more peaceful solution. The genophage wouldn't have been needed if the Council had attempted to mitigate the Krogan race violent tendencies in the first place.

Why do you think the ME1 people weren't xenophobes?

Miranda explains that the experiments in ME1; to be more precise the attempts to control Husks, Rachni and Creepers; were to create expendable shock troopers for high risk mission. This shows concern for human lives rather than hate or fear of aliens.

We know enough that it was unnecessarily torturous.

We don't even know what was the point of Akuze. How can you tell what was or wasn't necessary?

As the project itself was corrupt, as Cerberus itself is corrupt, everything done in its defense is corrupt.
 

Cerberus is a black ops organization that uses questionable methods to protect and advance the human race. They've always been honest about this. If TIM used Cerberus for his own goals, only then it would be  corrupt.

Also, had Shepard not destroyed those bases, Kahoku's death would have been meaningless compared to all the humans lives that would have been saved.  

It's not nearly a sufficiently measurable greater good to justify it.

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on what Cerberus would do with both Jack and the info extracted from the project.
Let's say that they would have discovered a way to make all future human biotics as powerful as Asari matriarchs. Then, the Teltin facility would have been justified.
Except things like making children fight each other, of course.

[General User]

jtav wrote...
Though nothing can excuse what happened to Toombs. Sometimes I wish Miranda had been tangentially connected to that.

I think judging the Toombs' affair ultimately hinges on whether or not the what the Cerberus doctors did to him really were medically necessary treatments (in all fairness it seems that they were not, but there is some doubt on the matter).

Of course, even if they were medically necessary, not informing Toombs' family or the service or the corporal's status indisputably constitutes an abduction. A grave, even capital, offense, but well removed from 'Dr. Mengele' territory.

And if what was done to Cpl. Toombs was NOT medically necessary then, to my way of thinking, every single person involved, every single person who knew, and every single person who person who should have known should be tried and executed.

Modifié par General User, 26 septembre 2011 - 12:58 .

[MisterJB]

jtav wrote...

Though nothing can excuse what happened to Toombs.

Why Toombs and not Grayson? We don't even know the nature and purpose of the experiments done on Toombs.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 septembre 2011 - 12:43 .

[Vertigo_1]

MisterJB wrote...

jtav wrote...

Though nothing can excuse what happened to Toombs.

Why Toombs and not Grayson? We don't even know the nature and purpose of the experiments done on Toombs.

I thought he said something like they injected Thresher Maw acid into his veins to see what would happen?

[jtav]

Because I forgot about Grayson. Him too. Cerberus has done monstrous things. They've also raised the dead. They're the best and worst of humanity.

I actually wrote a fic about Miranda being complicit in Akuze. First thing I wrote for ME.

[MisterJB]

Vertigo_1 wrote...
I thought he said something like they injected Thresher Maw acid into his veins to see what would happen?

He did but not only is Toombs mentally unstable, I also doubt the scientists would have bothered to explain to him why they were doing what they were doing.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

What does Toombs have that would make him a threat? I doubt he has Biotics. He's just a foolish soldier, one who can't open his eyes and see the TRUE threat the that is going to terrorize the galaxy in just about 5 months from now. Instead, he dwells in the past.

[General User]

Geez, you're asking alot of ol' Toombs!

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I actually wrote a fic about Miranda being complicit in Akuze. First thing I wrote for ME.

Just read it. Enjoyed it. The basic concept is something we might plausibly see in ME3 tbh, though in different circumstances: Miranda really having to face up to the implications of her involvement in Cerberus. And then the question becomes: what next?

In ME2, Miranda basically exists in the space allotted by lines such as "It wasn't Cerberus, not really." And "A mistake. Not mine." But in ME3 she might have to deal with a situation where, yeah, she has to admit, "My mistake, that was me." I'd like to see how that plays out.

Modifié par flemm, 26 septembre 2011 - 01:27 .

[jtav]

Tbh, that facing up should have been her LM. It would have gone a long way toward assuaging my concerns about the CB.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Tbh, that facing up should have been her LM. It would have gone a long way toward assuaging my concerns about the CB.

It's an interesting thought, but I don't think I would want to lose her LM as is. That's another whole dimension of the character. There really should be ample time in ME3 to confront this. Just because she's fighting Cerberus/has resigned or whatever, that doesn't mean all the ghosts will have disappeared. Especially if she's surrounded by a lot of Alliance people who won't let her forget.

Modifié par flemm, 26 septembre 2011 - 01:42 .

[jtav]

I love that side to her character, but building to the events of the CB should have been the priority. If she'd had a moment where she'd really had to acknowledge how ugly Cerberus is (and not with a generic, optional line) makes subsequent events on the Paragon side more plausible.

And as much as I like her concern for Oriana, it feels like every ruthless female character has a little brother/sister like Oriana that reveals their soft side.

[Eyeshield21]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

I actually wrote a fic about Miranda being complicit in Akuze. First thing I wrote for ME.

Just read it. Enjoyed it. The basic concept is something we might plausibly see in ME3 tbh, though in different circumstances: Miranda really having to face up to the implications of her involvement in Cerberus. And then the question becomes: what next?

In ME2, Miranda basically exists in the space allotted by lines such as "It wasn't Cerberus, not really." And "A mistake. Not mine." But in ME3 she might have to deal with a situation where, yeah, she has to admit, "My mistake, that was me." I'd like to see how that plays out.

this story is fanfiction, right? I swear this could've been a mission or DLC if Bioware wanted to. Nice story Jtav

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I love that side to her character, but building to the events of the CB should have been the priority.

There's a certain logic to that, but it really depends on how one interprets the CB decision. It remains to be seen how the writers themselves interpret it. If it's about a general sense that Cerberus is not to be trusted, then a different loyalty mission might have contributed to that. But if it's more about the nature of the base, Miranda's own goals and the tactical situation, then not so much.

The "betrayal" line has probably been debated and micro-analyzed as much as any line in the game. It's ambiguous and it's just one line. So I could see my opinion of the whole thing being defined largely by what happens next. It's a cliffhanger, basically.

Eyeshield21 wrote...
this story is fanfiction, right? I swear this could've been a mission or DLC if Bioware wanted to.

Yes, one of jtav's first, I gather.

Modifié par flemm, 26 septembre 2011 - 02:01 .

[jtav]

*blushes* Miranda being somehow involved in Akuze had been done before, but I found Shep unrealistically forgiving.

I'm toying with another Akuze story that's less dramatic. Miranda isn't complicit, but Shep has PTSD and she has to deal with that.

[Eyeshield21]

jtav wrote...

*blushes* Miranda being somehow involved in Akuze had been done before, but I found Shep unrealistically forgiving.

I'm toying with another Akuze story that's less dramatic. Miranda isn't complicit, but Shep has PTSD and she has to deal with that.

are the stories all linked? or are they all separate stories, like this is waht could've happened, or something?
how many do you got?

Modifié par Eyeshield21, 26 septembre 2011 - 02:05 .

[jtav]

I've never written anything else in that universe. Most of what I do is Liara/Miranda or Kaidan/Miranda. I don't actually ship Shep/Miranda.