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[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
But I would venture to guess that a higher percentage of people posting here want Miranda to be highly pragmatic and heavily armored than out there in the wide world of the average player. Especially the heavily armored part.

Well, I think there is a consensus that she shouldn't be "heavily" armored. Though there is disagreement about whether or not the AAP2 armor is to be considered "heavy".

About pragmatic Miranda part, I don't have the slightest idea about the opinions of the non-forum player population, though you should note that the average player's age is about 40, which may indicate that the preconceptions leading to certain assumptions might not be valid. But what I've seen is this: a high percentage of players who do not post in this thread regularly but post somewhere else on BSN appears to agree that the "betrayal" line (or even her resignation in the first place) is OOC, compared to the people who post in this thread. This is btw, independent of how they might want Miranda to be in ME3. You might want Miranda to be less pragmatic and still think she's OOC at the CB.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

ME2 was released in Poland, correct? If that were true, the Yvonne probably recorded her voice as Miri in the Polish Version of ME2 as well. Yvonne is fluent in Polish, due to the fact that her parents came from Poland.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 26 septembre 2011 - 12:45 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
About pragmatic Miranda part, I don't have the slightest idea about the opinions of the non-forum player population, though you should note that the average player's age is about 40, which may indicate that the preconceptions leading to certain assumptions might not be valid.

Unless there's some reason to believe that older people like pragmatic characters more and/or are less interested in a woman in a sexy catsuit than younger people when they are playing fantasy video games, I don't think average age is relevant.

Ieldra2 wrote...
You might want Miranda to be less pragmatic and still think she's OOC at the CB.

Sure you might. But I see little to no evidence that this is a majority opinion, even here on the BSN. Clearly a contentious issue, but that is a different thing entirely. And anyway, fan forums like this always tend to skew wildly, in one direction or another, away from the playerbase as a whole. It's practically guaranteed.

Modifié par flemm, 26 septembre 2011 - 01:46 .

[Xilizhra]

(2) Moral outlook: "Renegon" vs. "Paragade". The former representing the opinion that Miranda, regardless of whether she resigns from Cerberus or not, should retain most of her consequentialist (pragmatic) moral outlook, the latter the opinion that she should adopt the deontological stance indicative of the Paragon path more often.

I believe that this is something of a false dilemma; one can be both consequentialist and Paragon-leaning. I'm personally wholly utilitarian, for instance.

[General User]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Very much this. The interesting thing is that the division in the fanbase has several aspects, but nonetheless there are primarily two groups. So for instance, if you prefer the armor over the catsuits, that appears to be somewhat predictive for your opinion on Miranda's moral outlook. Just as a tendency, exceptions like Jebel Krong notwithstanding. The main poles are:

(1) Personality traits: rational/professional vs. emotional/romantic. The former representing the opinion that Miranda's emotional side should be mostly restricted to the romance and her dealings with people she personally cares for, and that she should be detached, rational and professional everywhere else, the latter the opinion that she should generally be more emotional.

(2) Moral outlook: "Renegon" vs. "Paragade". The former representing the opinion that Miranda, regardless of whether she resigns from Cerberus or not, should retain most of her consequentialist (pragmatic) moral outlook, the latter the opinion that she should adopt the deontological stance indicative of the Paragon path more often.

(3) Miranda's appearance: Armor vs. Catsuits. The former representing the opinion that Miranda's catsuits are unrealistic or inappropriate in style, enough that it has a negative impact on how she is perceived and that she should have armor on combat missions by default in ME3, the latter the opinion that the catsuits are perfectly fine and should return unchanged in ME3. There are some attempts at a compromise both factions could live with.

(4) The "betrayal" line at the Collector base: It is OOC vs. It's not OOC. The former representing the opinion that given what we see Miranda say and do in the course of the game, "using anything from this base seems like a betrayal" is a line Miranda would never say, that she'd never think using the knowledge of the base as such is evil or something like that which the line appears to indicate, and in a more general sense, that she would not make a decision of such a strategic importance based on an emotion. Consequently, if she'd recommend to destroy the base at all, she'd do so based on more rational arguments. The other faction thinks the line is perfectly in-character and there are enough signs in the game that hint that Miranda might say that.

(5) Miranda's sex life: more experienced vs. less experienced. Almost everyone acknowledges that Miranda is somewhat experienced. However, the former faction thinks that she might have had "many" sexual (if not romantic) partners in the past and that this doesn't detract from her appeal in any way, while the other faction wants to reduce Miranda's experience to not much more than the minimum of the encounters we specifically read or hear about, basically Jacob and the encounter mentioned in the dossier. The former faction also likes the idea that Miranda has used her sex appeal in the past to get jobs done, the latter one tends to dislike it.

I hope I have  given a somewhat comprehensive summary of the fanbase split. Compromises have been attempted in the armor wars and point (5) could very well remain a matter of interpretation, but the lines in the other points are drawn and unlikely to move much.

What an interesting summary. Here's where I stand on these issues.

(1) Personality traits: rational/professional vs. emotional/romantic.   I think that a big part of Miranda's development as a character over the course of ME2 involved quite a bit of erosion between her rational/professional side and her emotional/romantic side. All the same she remains the same woman, but perhaps a little more… balanced. I like that. Ideally she should be more the former in public with the crew, and more the latter in private with Shepard, but retain qualities of both in either instance, just the balance shifts.

(2) Moral outlook: "Renegon" vs. "Paragade". Approaching this one from a highly personal perspective, I would definitely like Miranda to be slanted far more to the Renegade side of the spectrum, if for no other reason than that I tend to so highly favor the Paragon side. Miranda is a character I like and respect, so having her act as a foil to my "Paragonyness" could easily make me consider the game and its decisions in ways I otherwise might not, making for a far richer play experience for me (and it would be nice if Bioware designed it's games just for me).

(3) Miranda's appearance: Armor vs. Catsuits. I am an ardent armor partisan. Though that being said, if Shepard can wear armor on missions, then come back to the Normandy and put on a jumpsuit or whatever, why can't the rest of the crew? Hell they could make it a DLC; "Crew Casual Appearance Packs 1-3", 400 BW points each (or get the 3-in-1 for 1000 BW points), I'd buy 'em.

(4) The "betrayal" line at the Collector base: It is OOC vs. It's not OOC. I don't like that line from Miranda. I think she should have been among those supporting keeping the base. I don't like how the matter was handled post-SM. The whole affair (for Miranda and the rest of the crew) was a fumble, imo.

(5) Miranda's sex life: more experienced vs. less experienced. I definitely favor more experienced. No question about it. Not only is Miranda drop-dead gorgeous but she knows what the hell she's doing?  Sounds right to me.  Now, the thing about Miranda using her sex appeal to her advantage is... well, she's the most grogeous woman in the galaxy.  Even if she made a deliberate effort to hide or minimize her... assets, it's only possible for her to be so sucessful.  It's a losing battle, so why should she fight it?

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
Ash has armor of her own, a feminized version of Kaidan's. Looking at Kaidan's it wouldn't surprise me if they used Miranda's AA as a base. It also lends credibility to the idea Miranda will be armored, probably about as heavily as Liara.

Could very well be customizable. With more appearance options for squad members, the whole issue of how Miranda looks is probably the easiest one to resolve tbh. Because everyone can get what they want.

If she's not on the squad, that's a different story. But that would probably also mean she's not in the game much, so we'd have bigger issues. 

Modifié par flemm, 26 septembre 2011 - 02:08 .

[Xilizhra]

(4) The "betrayal" line at the Collector base: It is OOC vs. It's not OOC. I don't like that line from Miranda. I think she should have been among those supporting keeping the base. I don't like how the matter was handled post-SM. The whole affair (for Miranda and the rest of the crew) was a fumble, imo.

Eh, I just think she needed to use a different phrase.

[nitefyre410]

General User wrote...

What an interesting summary. Here's where I stand on these issues.

(1) Personality traits: rational/professional vs. emotional/romantic.   I think that a big part of Miranda's development as a character over the course of ME2 involved quite a bit of erosion between her rational/professional side and her emotional/romantic side. All the same she remains the same woman, but perhaps a little more… balanced. I like that. Ideally she should be more the former in public with the crew, and more the latter in private with Shepard, but retain qualities of both in either instance, just the balance shifts.

 

I agree with this -  I think over time as her characters developes  she comes to terms with emotional side - which does not mean she  becomse the bleeding heart but she does care and should show in here own way.  I of the belief that would be quietly making sure the crew has everything they need and some extras. She seems like the type the likes to be in the background and just knowing the people that  matter are happy is enough. 

(2) Moral outlook: "Renegon" vs. "Paragade". Approaching this one from a highly personal perspective, I would definitely like Miranda to be slanted far more to the Renegade side of the spectrum, if for no other reason than that I tend to so highly favor the Paragon side. Miranda is a character I like and respect, so having her act as a foil to my "Paragonyness" could easily make me consider the game and its decisions in ways I otherwise might not, making for a far richer play experience for me (and it would be nice if Bioware designed it's games just for me).

 

Exactly - she is the a balance to my  Shepard - I want to hear more of her opinions she is good  balance to my  Shepard paragon as  well - though I am getting tired of the   Bioware portrayal of  Paragon and Renegade. I feel very trapped in most of the  deceision making most of  time... there is  room for flexibility. 

(3) Miranda's appearance: Armor vs. Catsuits. I am an ardent armor partisan. Though that being said, if Shepard can wear armor on missions, then come back to the Normandy and put on a jumpsuit or whatever, why can't the rest of the crew? Hell they could make it a DLC; "Crew Casual Appearance Packs 1-3", 400 BW points each (or get the 3-in-1 for 1000 BW points), I'd buy 'em.

 

class apporiate armor  and dress for the mission -  if you are walking down the street doing a covert mission your not going to do it full battle around with guns everywhere.   Nope.  She is a biotic - Bioware really needs to stop nerfing Biotics to avoided the whole "Space Magic" Complaint. She can throw a woman  clear across a space port  - she and others should be able to make barriers that can stop gun fire.   But at the end of the day  Mission  apporiate and class apporiate armor. 

(4) The "betrayal" line at the Collector base: It is OOC vs. It's not OOC. I don't like that line from Miranda. I think she should have been among those supporting keeping the base. I don't like how the matter was handled post-SM. The whole affair (for Miranda and the rest of the crew) was a fumble, imo.

 

IMO -  Biowar dropped the ball horrible on this  not only was it a fumble it was fumble in the 4th quarther,  2 and 1 on the goal line  with the game on the line.   I always  felt that  Miranda story was  one of Loyality vs Blind Loyality.  Her actions at the  CB see so Out of the character because they never show her developing  to the point where she  starting question   TIM actions and intetions.  This was a HUGE mistake by   Bioware and they have to do  better. People rag on FF 13 like know tomorrow but you know what I can play that game and watch Lightning go from  shutthing everyone out to  by the end of  the coming to draw  her strength from the people around her   and point moments in the game as progression. ME  2 I see Miranda at the beginning being hard core Loyalist  then at the end of the game the curve ball of the her Quitting  Cerberus. Its not OOC -  its never  explaining you never see the progression from Point  A to point B. The Same can be said for  almost everyone Tali and her romance the two years between are such a  mystery so they is no Point  A to Point B 

(5) Miranda's sex life: more experienced vs. less experienced. I definitely favor more experienced. No question about it. Not only is Miranda drop-dead gorgeous but she knows what the hell she's doing?  Sounds right to me.  Now, the thing about Miranda using her sex appeal to her advantage is... well, she's the most grogeous woman in the galaxy.  Even if she made a deliberate effort to hide or minimize her... assets, it's only possible for her to be so sucessful.  It's a losing battle, so why should she fight it?

 

This is going  sound harsh but I  agree - She is grown ass woman and she can sexually nature, libido and sex drive, want jump shepard  because she wants to  be she wants it  and not be a "****, **** ,etc,"   She is not some  wall flower  and every if she was that would make  not the least bit of difference.    Women have breast and  curves in the all shapes and sizes and she can smart, professional  etc.  This speaks to this larger notion that Strong, smart, woman can't be sexy, feel sexy or look sexy,  and  have a sexually nature and that drives me up a wall.   It madness among other things.  

[jtav]

Okay, I'm never taking the Renegade interrupt in Miranda's LM again. She delivers a headshot to a merc followed by "Works for me," when the leader says they're done talking. Badass.

Should my mission-focused Paragon encourage her to talk to her sister? I'd originally planned to skip her LM altogether, but it's Miranda.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Okay, I'm never taking the Renegade interrupt in Miranda's LM again. She delivers a headshot to a merc followed by "Works for me," when the leader says they're done talking. Badass.

Yeah, it's pretty sweet. I had actually hidden this from myself for several playthroughs because I usual can't help but pull the trigger on the interrupts. Now I skip this one.

[nitefyre410]

jtav wrote...

Okay, I'm never taking the Renegade interrupt in Miranda's LM again. She delivers a headshot to a merc followed by "Works for me," when the leader says they're done talking. Badass.

Should my mission-focused Paragon encourage her to talk to her sister? I'd originally planned to skip her LM altogether, but it's Miranda.

 


Depends  on how you mission focused  Paragon feels about her emotional stabality and how it will affect the mission.  I am of the camp the people preform better with a clear mind not worrying about "What about my loved ones?"  

This is just me though

[jtav]

It's difficult because I overrode her RP just by doing it. She doesn't care about her squad or their problems. She's just marking time until the Collector ship.

[nitefyre410]

jtav wrote...

It's difficult because I overrode her RP just by doing it. She doesn't care about her squad or their problems. She's just marking time until the Collector ship.

 


Well that choice is made- sounds  choice is made -  if thats story of the  Shepard than thats  how she will play it out. Sucks for more though in the end the "Plot demands it."


If I was playing my  Shepard like that I would tell  her not to go  talk to her sister.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

(2) Moral outlook: "Renegon" vs. "Paragade". The former representing the opinion that Miranda, regardless of whether she resigns from Cerberus or not, should retain most of her consequentialist (pragmatic) moral outlook, the latter the opinion that she should adopt the deontological stance indicative of the Paragon path more often.

I believe that this is something of a false dilemma; one can be both consequentialist and Paragon-leaning. I'm personally wholly utilitarian, for instance.

I don't think you can be both, and from your posts here and on TCR I can only conclude that you aren't utilitarian. I've seen you invent additional circumstances to justify a Paragon decision too often and use consequences as justification you absolutely cannot foresee but pretend you can. You *want* all Paragon decisions to be utilitarian, but in fact many aren't and they're even made around exactly the concept that they aren't.

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

(2) Moral outlook: "Renegon" vs. "Paragade". The former representing the opinion that Miranda, regardless of whether she resigns from Cerberus or not, should retain most of her consequentialist (pragmatic) moral outlook, the latter the opinion that she should adopt the deontological stance indicative of the Paragon path more often.

I believe that this is something of a false dilemma; one can be both consequentialist and Paragon-leaning. I'm personally wholly utilitarian, for instance.

I don't think you can be both, and from your posts here and on TCR I can only conclude that you aren't utilitarian. I've seen you invent additional circumstances to justify a Paragon decision too often and use consequences as justification you absolutely cannot foresee but pretend you can. You *want* all Paragon decisions to be utilitarian, but in fact many aren't and they're even made around exactly the concept that they aren't.

What examples do you have for this?

[jtav]

Um, maybe this would be better suited for PM.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
What examples do you have for this?

What's the use listing examples? You'd never admit I have a point anyway, not even in the most inconsequential example, I've learned that much. The recent excursion into Tali's LM is the best example. But if you want, we can take this somewhere else. If we start this here it's going to derail this thread.

Edit:
Yep. jtav said it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[Ieldra]

@flemm:
I was just reminded of the reaction of BSN at large when the AAP2 with Miranda's armor came out. The most violent opposition was here in this thread, while everywhere else almost everyone who was not a Miranda thread regular as well expressed anything between a huge relief ("Now I can take her on missions without feeling silly") and appreciation for a more realistic option ("I don't mind the catsuit, but it's good she has a realistic combat outfit now").

So yes, I maintain my statement that Miranda's armor is more appreciated among the general BSN population than among Miranda's fans.

[Sebby]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@flemm:
I was just reminded of the reaction of BSN at large when the AAP2 with Miranda's armor came out. The most violent opposition was here in this thread, while everywhere else almost everyone who was not a Miranda thread regular as well expressed anything between a huge relief ("Now I can take her on missions without feeling silly") and appreciation for a more realistic option ("I don't mind the catsuit, but it's good she has a realistic combat outfit now").

So yes, I maintain my statement that Miranda's armor is more appreciated among the general BSN population than among Miranda's fans.

That's how it was with me and thanks to AAP2 I've used Miranda for half the game in most of my playthroughs.

Now if only they would release an AAP for Samara/Morinth.....

Modifié par Seboist, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:29 .

[nitefyre410]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@flemm:
I was just reminded of the reaction of BSN at large when the AAP2 with Miranda's armor came out. The most violent opposition was here in this thread, while everywhere else almost everyone who was not a Miranda thread regular as well expressed anything between a huge relief ("Now I can take her on missions without feeling silly") and appreciation for a more realistic option ("I don't mind the catsuit, but it's good she has a realistic combat outfit now").

So yes, I maintain my statement that Miranda's armor is more appreciated among the general BSN population than among Miranda's fans.

 


^  Agree'd  - I  think that armor looks bad - just because  its poorly designed.   The catsuit never bothered me at me all.   That armor looks pasted on and it was rush job to appaise - what was precieved as some kind of grievence. Still still of the thought that when you have Liara creating bubbles around the entire party, Samara holding off  nigh billions of the seekers and Jack ripping holes in the space station buckheads on top of ripping through Ymir mechs like tissue paper. and  Miranda  Tossing  Asari commandos across space ports. The way Biotics played out in combat were just pathetic . I am always a firm believe in mission apporiate dress- if you going it city with a convert style mission  you don't walk around full battle armor armed to the teeth.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 26 septembre 2011 - 03:36 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
So yes, I maintain my statement that Miranda's armor is more appreciated among the general BSN population than among Miranda's fans.

Let's say for a minute that you are right, and that fans of Miranda like the catsuit more than non-fans of Miranda. What does that really tell us other than some variation of... 

"People who like the character are more likely to like the character, as she appears in the game, than people who don't like the character."

...?

What you are picking up on, at least in part, is most likely the strain of fan on the BSN who didn't like Miranda much to begin with, and didn't take her much on missions anyway. Same with the CB being OOC, tbh. You might pick up on a certain type of non-fan that agrees with you, but that would be partly because they never got passed the idea of Miranda being a Cerberus loyalist first and foremost. Probably never saw the betrayal line in an actual game.

In other words, people who are not fans of a character are not likely to be representative of what fans of the character think.

Miranda was the most used squad member in a game with 10-12 squad members, two of whom were popular returning characters. Are we to conclude that most of those players disliked her appearance?

Obviously, it is a contentious issue about which there are myriad opinions. What I would argue against is any facile conclusion about what the majority of fans think.

Modifié par flemm, 26 septembre 2011 - 07:37 .

[jtav]

Since squad structure is a major topic of concern:

In response to this: www.nerdappropriate.com/2011/09/25/sfx-reveals-rotating-mass-effect-3-cast/

twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson/status/118111916513181696
"The assumption of "rotating squadmembers" (no choice) is inaccurate."

[flemm]

Interesting. They've been saying all along that the squad would work differently. That tweet almost sounds like confirmation that there will be more possible squad members than slots available, and that there will be at least some degree of choice, i.e. a few slots that you can fill a number of different ways.

That has always seemed like an attractive option, due to the varying number of characters who can survive. But challenging to implement, and very different from past games. Very intriguing.

Modifié par flemm, 26 septembre 2011 - 04:56 .

[MACharlie1]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

ME2 was released in Poland, correct? If that were true, the Yvonne probably recorded her voice as Miri in the Polish Version of ME2 as well. Yvonne is fluent in Polish, due to the fact that her parents came from Poland.

Unlikely actually. Despite the fact that she is fluent in Polish, the funding that goes into doing the foreign dubs probably wouldn't cover the paycheck EA cuts to Yvonne considering she is more of an actor actor then a voice actor such as Jennifer Hale or Raphael Sbarge. 

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Since squad structure is a major topic of concern:

In response to this: www.nerdappropriate.com/2011/09/25/sfx-reveals-rotating-mass-effect-3-cast/

twitter.com/#!/CaseyDHudson/status/118111916513181696
"The assumption of "rotating squadmembers" (no choice) is inaccurate."

On the way the squad works, there's also this Patrick Weekes tweet:

" actually a complicated question. Sorry -- answering would reveal too much about how followers work this time."

He misclicked, but was apparently intending to answer Vertigo's question about which characters he is writing this time around. It's an interesting comment from that point of view. If squad members can be swapped out, maybe he has to write chunks of dialogue for every character who can fill that slot, or something of that nature.

Modifié par flemm, 26 septembre 2011 - 07:46 .