82210 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

As I said upthread, I don't consider her likely as a full, optional squadmember. I think she'll get a mission of her own. She won't be pushed aside. As long as I can still like the character I'll be satisfied.

[nitefyre410]

really all I want is some satisfying conclusions to the these characters stories. Thats all I want for Miranda whether she is permanent squad mate or not is not that big of a deal. I always believe the in Trilogies your characters stories and the story itself so go full circle in sense but the character have changed and grown through the three parts.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

As I said upthread, I don't consider her likely as a full, optional squadmember. I think she'll get a mission of her own. She won't be pushed aside. As long as I can still like the character I'll be satisfied.

One mission would definitely not be enough. However, that is unlikely, I think.

Not being on the squad I would potentially be ok with, provided there was significant screen time otherwise. But the non -squad appearances would have to be pretty awesome.

Modifié par flemm, 27 septembre 2011 - 12:42 .

[Dr. Doctor]

Going back to the whole Pragmatic vs. Emotional/Romantic debate, can't Miranda demonstrate both characteristics? Granted I see her dominant personality trait being cool and business-like, but when it comes to people like Oriana she can be a little more emotional, this also applies to the romance depending on how you play it.

I'm curious as to how a romanced Miranda would react to Shepard going on trial.

Shepard: Miranda, this trial is the only way for me to get back into the Alliance.

Miranda: Says Admiral Hackett. What do you suppose will happen when they put you in front of that tribunal? Reapers or not you destroyed a star system, and judging from your relationship with the Council you won't have your Spectre status to hide behind.

Shepard: I'll just have to explain-

Miranda: Explain? Explain what? That you destroyed the relay to slow down a race of machines that next to no one with any political standing believes in?

Shepard: This isn't just about the trial is it?

Miranda: They're going to charge you with treason Shepard. You know what will happen. Two years and four billion credits and you go an consign yourself to death.

Shepard: (wraps arms around Miranda) I love you.

Miranda: I know. But that doesn't change what's going to happen.

Shepard: There's still hope, I promised that I wouldn't die on you and I don't intend to find out what happens if I break it.

Miranda: (laughs half-heartedly) I suppose with your luck a Reaper would land outside of the courtroom right before they sentence you.

Shepard: Wouldn't that be something?

[Vertigo_1]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

As I said upthread, I don't consider her likely as a full, optional squadmember. I think she'll get a mission of her own. She won't be pushed aside. As long as I can still like the character I'll be satisfied.

One mission would definitely not be enough. However, that is unlikely, I think.

Don't make me get that Vega comic on this again

[flemm]

Vertigo_1 wrote...
Don't make me get that Vega comic on this again

ZZASSTT

As the squad is shaping up right now, though, I'd actually say that Miranda is likely to be recruitable. The squad needs a Sentinel besides Kaidan, and it needs another human female. In addition, there is the character's popularity, the fact that she is emblematic of ME2 and all the plot hooks, notably the Cerberus connection. Future reveals might change this assessment, of course.

@Dr. Doctor, hilarious, one of your best that I can recall.

Modifié par flemm, 27 septembre 2011 - 12:50 .

[jtav]

Doctor, I love you.

And it isn't that being a temp is preferable. I just consider it most likely atm and acknowledge it as a mild disappointment only.

Modifié par jtav, 27 septembre 2011 - 12:52 .

[pancholonita]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Going back to the whole Pragmatic vs. Emotional/Romantic debate, can't Miranda demonstrate both characteristics? Granted I see her dominant personality trait being cool and business-like, but when it comes to people like Oriana she can be a little more emotional, this also applies to the romance depending on how you play it.

I'm curious as to how a romanced Miranda would react to Shepard going on trial.

Shepard: Miranda, this trial is the only way for me to get back into the Alliance.

Miranda: Says Admiral Hackett. What do you suppose will happen when they put you in front of that tribunal? Reapers or not you destroyed a star system, and judging from your relationship with the Council you won't have your Spectre status to hide behind.

Shepard: I'll just have to explain-

Miranda: Explain? Explain what? That you destroyed the relay to slow down a race of machines that next to no one with any political standing believes in?

Shepard: This isn't just about the trial is it?

Miranda: They're going to charge you with treason Shepard. You know what will happen. Two years and four billion credits and you go an consign yourself to death.

Shepard: (wraps arms around Miranda) I love you.

Miranda: I know. But that doesn't change what's going to happen.

Shepard: There's still hope, I promised that I wouldn't die on you and I don't intend to find out what happens if I break it.

Miranda: (laughs half-heartedly) I suppose with your luck a Reaper would land outside of the courtroom right before they sentence you.

Shepard: Wouldn't that be something?

It would be good that the conversation can be given 

[jtav]

And on a lighter note, anyone else feel Miranda sells herself short in the humor department? She's very dry and deadpan in my current game.

[nitefyre410]

jtav wrote...

And on a lighter note, anyone else feel Miranda sells herself short in the humor department? She's very dry and deadpan in my current game.

 


she could use an up grade  in the deparment  but I can't whether it would be a rather refined dry  dead pan witty  or  secert fun loving side that only shepard see... hmmm? 

[flemm]

Some of her banter in the game shows a tendency toward wry sarcasm or deadpan humor, which I think could be expanded upon.

The secret fun loving side... well, I think we've seen a bit of that already tbh. Could see more in the next game, time-permitting.

[Collider]

Is anyone else irritated by Miranda's issues with the genetic modifications done on her? It feels tired, unnecessary, and overblown. Moreover, it damages the "confident, competent" operative feel that I actually like about her and almost completely destroys it.

[jtav]

Not at all, C. I rather "like" her issues. I get them. I was an overachiever who didn't really have a choice about succeeding so I get it. There was so much I had to do, just because I could.

[flemm]

Collider wrote...

Is anyone else irritated by Miranda's issues with the genetic modifications done on her? It feels tired, unnecessary, and overblown. Moreover, it damages the "confident, competent" operative feel that I actually like about her and almost completely destroys it.

Speaking for myself personally, not at all. I do think her character arc should involve overcoming that angst, but it's good that it's there as an obstacle. As for it conflicting to an extent with her confidence (definitely) and maybe competence (slightly), that's the whole point really. You don't get a fully-realized character without some issues of that nature for the character to struggle with.

Edit: It's also true, as jtav points out below, that it's partly the abuse that she's struggling with, not really the enhancements per se. So that complicates matters further (also good imo).

Modifié par flemm, 27 septembre 2011 - 02:36 .

[jtav]

Basically Miranda is this trope, though very much able to function. She's an abuse survivor, and those are her scars.

Modifié par jtav, 27 septembre 2011 - 02:34 .

[nitefyre410]

I think it plays in the Nothing is Perfect under tone that I get with her . Honestly i get the feeling that she kind resents the way she was brought into the world. Yes has the gifts but I get vibe that she feels isolated because of them, she feels she not really human No mother, just a clone of her father. I would how that would play over with other Operatives- the whispers behind the back, etc ,etc,etc, Maybe she feels that if gained the trust a pro-human group she would herself feel more human..


Just a thought

[jtav]

Basically, I want to hug her and beat her father to death with my bare hands.

[nitefyre410]

jtav wrote...

Basically Miranda is this trope, though very much able to function. She's an abuse survivor, and those are her scars.

 

reading the Tropes  Princess Azula could Miranda in a  completely  dark   way   espiecally if she stayed with  her father...

Yeah I want to beat that man senseless too but then  kinda like Doc  Mahattan said about  Silk Spectre 2... good can come from bad and from her fathers bad we have  Miranda... 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 27 septembre 2011 - 02:41 .

[Collider]

I think part of the problem for me is that Miranda is very much appreciated and credited for her successes. Telling herself that she can't take credit when everyone is giving her credit and celebrating her (the exception being Wilson, who was the standard evil throwaway jealous underling) looks foolish.

It's been several years since her teenage years (in which such an attitude could be understood under her father's control) and she's in her 30's now. I do realize that every character needs conflict, of course, but I wish this hadn't been it. Putting herself down as she does in the conversation (owing all that she has done to her modifications and not herself) while calling Shepard essentially better than her and the best of humanity destroys what I liked about the character to begin with - the confidence, independence, relative self-security. It's as if she is there to make Shepard look good.

[jtav]

I dislike the praise heaped on Shepard, but otherwise it's the fundamental tragedy of her character. She can raise the dead, but as long as her father haunts her, she'll never be good enough. And I assure you, this can dog people into adulthood.

[flemm]

@ Collider, That's cool, if that's how you feel. I can't say I agree, though. There's an element of player ego massage built into every character, of course. But it's plausible that someone with Miranda's past might see herself that way.

Complementing Shepard isn't a put down directed at herself, I don't think. Just a sign that she respects her/him now, whereas she didn't before. A lot of Shepard's lines build Miranda up as well, "the best thing he ever did was put you on my squad," "You give your father too much credit, etc." Miranda goes from resentment of Shepard to being able to recognize her/his good qualities, which is actually a sign of increased self-confidence, not really the opposite.

Modifié par flemm, 27 septembre 2011 - 02:54 .

[Collider]

That is true, jtav. A good point.
@Flemm: But she compares herself to Shepard and calls Shepard the best humanity can offer. That's elevating Shepard above her by default. Coupled with her saying that Shepard can credit himself but she can't credit herself for accomplishments, it sounds like she's putting herself down.

I don't actually think that Miranda's respect for Shepard was a subtle progression. There's a big disjoint between how she acted on Cerberus Station and on the Normandy. I would blame the fact that those two presentations of her character were written by two different people with different writing styles. In the same way that Miranda doesn't want to keep the base in the suicide mission, although that's a different topic.
On the Normandy she acts like a secretary who wants to talk and share with Shepard, not the ice queen who said herself that Shepard has to earn her respect and trust.

It is true that Mass Effect has plenty of ego massaging for Shepard, though. All of the love interests do it, certainly. I consider Miranda among the worst for this, considering what she says about Shepard being perfect. So it's not just a complaint about Miranda - I just felt that out of all of the love interests (excepting Jack, possibly), Miranda should not be the one gushing about Shepard.

[flemm]

Collider wrote...
@Flemm: But she compares herself to Shepard and calls Shepard the best humanity can offer. That's elevating Shepard above her by default. Coupled with her saying that Shepard can credit himself but she can't credit herself for accomplishments, it sounds like she's putting herself down.

Well, like I say, I'm not really interested in trying to change your mind. But I don't find that reading convincing at all. Again, being able to sincerely admire and complement another without resentment is one of the clearest signs of self-assurance. And when she tells Shepard that, it isn't with a sense of self-loathing at all. Quite the contrary. In the earlier conversation, yes, but there is a clear progression there.

The "best humanity has to offer" is a reference to Shepard's intangible qualities, leadership especially, not a suggestion that he is somehow a perfect human specimen, superior to all. That's taking the expression far too literally.
 

Collider wrote...
I don't actually think that Miranda's respect for Shepard was a subtle progression. There's a big disjoint between how she acted on Cerberus Station and on the Normandy. I would blame the fact that those two presentations of her character were written by two different people with different writing styles.

Here again I don't really agree. All the interactions between characters progress in stages. That's just the way the game works. Between these two conversations, you've fought alongside each other at least once, maybe more than once, so Miranda refusing to talk about herself at all at this point would no longer make much sense.

At a certain point, anyone would say, ok, that's fair, here's the deal. Which is what she says. All character interactions in the game have that sort of tiered structure. To the extent there is any progression at all, it will work like that.

Modifié par flemm, 27 septembre 2011 - 03:07 .

[Collider]

Again, being able to sincerely admire and complement another without resentment is one of the clearest signs of self-assurance. And when she tells Shepard that, it isn't with sense of self-loathing at all. Quite the contrary.

I suppose we simply see it differently. I got an enormous feeling of Miranda being insecure and self-loathing in that conversation. It was both the dialog and how she said it. The voice acting was particular in showing it.

The "best humanity has to offer" is a reference to Shepard's intangible qualities, leadership especially, not a suggestion that he is somehow a perfect human specimen, superior to all.

She does call him a perfect human specimen.

Here again I don't really agree. All the interactions between characters progress in stages. That's just the way the game works. Between these two conversations, you've fought alongside each other at least once, maybe more than once, so Miranda refusing to talk about herself at all at this point would no longer make much sense.

Of course, I don't think she should refuse to talk about herself at all - there's no false dichotomy here. But I did feel that she was far more open than how she conducted herself on Cerberus Station would imply. There is a mission between the station and the Normandy, but she makes no mention of that so it feels like an oversight (or negligence) between the writers who wrote her than any actual progression. But, ymmv.

[jtav]

Okay, I have a hard choice incoming. Either Miranda dies, two other squad members die, or I get half my crew killed to do one more LM.