82210 réponses à ce sujet

[flemm]

Interesting. I didn't know he had commented. I basically agree with him, or at least with a more elaborate version of that point of view.

More dialogue would have been welcome, though.

[MisterJB]

Vertigo_1 wrote...
I can see it happening if we chose to have her accompany us during the biotic bubble stage (either as a squad mate or as the actual biotic user)

Prime squad banter right there IMO...

Really? Like what?

[Eyeshield21]

MisterJB wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...
I can see it happening if we chose to have her accompany us during the biotic bubble stage (either as a squad mate or as the actual biotic user)

Prime squad banter right there IMO...

Really? Like what?

this could be squad/shepaed banter

[Vertigo_1]

MisterJB wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...
I can see it happening if we chose to have her accompany us during the biotic bubble stage (either as a squad mate or as the actual biotic user)

Prime squad banter right there IMO...

Really? Like what?

In general a reaction to what just happened (the liquifying scene)

For her:
A reaction to what she saw and something that shows doubt in Cerberus, if you remember she started out as a staunch loyalist but in the end she can resign OR have doubts about keeping the base.  Now I don't mind it so much but I think it would have been nice to have some dialogue from her that shows the smallest of doubt  towards TIM...

[UserForFun]

I agree. Perhaps it will be cleared out in Mass Effect 3.

Edit -- I was playing around with Fraps, randomly playing Mass Effect 2, and I forgot it on, and it downloaded like fifty images. Either way, one came out rather special, in my perspective. Here's link ( No idea how to make it visible as forum-post, but oh well.. )

http://s3.postimage....ard_Miranda.png

Modifié par UserForFun, 30 septembre 2011 - 12:50 .

[flemm]

UserForFun wrote...

Perhaps it will be cleared out in Mass Effect 3.

I think it would really have to be addressed, at least indirectly, since her allegiance or opposition to Cerberus would be fundamental to even the shortest-imaginable, absolute worst-case Miranda appearance.

Not to mention that it's the kind of controversy that the writers would probably have been made aware of by now.

I'm looking forward to it! And to the discussions that ensue...

Modifié par flemm, 30 septembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[CuseGirl]

Do we need a full explanation of why she resigned? We kno that Shepard is a bad-ass solider/biotic and high-achiever. She's into him (physically/romantically, however much u believe she likes him) and whether you brought her on the Overlord mission, Jack's loyalty mission, or any mission where some1 was "testing" stuff on innocent people, she has all the data right there in front of her (especially since she's on the same ship with Jack).

Once you get to the end of the SM, Illusive Man looks really evil, childish and stupid at that point. Miranda doesn't need much more info to think "i can't support this man anymore, no matter how far he'll chase me or Shepard".

How many missions (recruitment, loyalty, main quest) are there? 25? 30 at least? and not all of them push the squad convos along for more dialogue. You have to use ur imagination to fill in the gaps. I can picture Miranda right now looking at files on the Pragia base. Or remembering the crew members frying in those little pods.....and her boss wants that tech? No brainer, she's done.

Modifié par CuseGirl, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:41 .

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

JosephDucreux wrote...
Seriously speaking, you'da think that it would've been quite an effective boner (or girl boner for the femSheps) killer. But...

Doesn't matter, had sex! (Yeah, that's what it felt like.)

I know right? God, the timing was just so...awkward.

[JosephDucreux]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

flemm wrote...
I'd love a visor option in ME3 + sniper rifle as part of her loadout.

Like this?
(Right click=>View)
*snip*

To be honest, Miranda is unsuited for a sniper rifle. She's an intelligence operative, so why in hell would she use a sniper rifle? At most, she'd need a PDW or an assault rifle to defend herself, given that she's no soldier. Only frontline soldiers/SWAT personnel are trained in sniping and actually need to snipe, and Miranda certainly isn't either. As a general rule of thumb, if any sniping needs to be done, it's done by the frontliners, not the REMFs or intelligence people, which Miranda most definitely is. Miranda with an assault rifle still sounds good, but no, I just find that her using a sniper rifle is rather out of role for her. And no, subguns aren't used for spraying (despite what Hollywood says), they're used for sneaking around behind an enemy's back and killing the SOBs quickly. Which sounds a lot like Miranda to me.

BRB, my wife's calling me over for more honeymoon lovin'. On second thoughts, I won't BRB.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Vertigo_1 wrote...
No, actually it will be the same as ME2 for squadmates:

twitter.com/#!/truffle/status/72549752880902144
"Similar to me2, squad mates are going to use two kinds of weapons that fit their personality and combat style"

Dammit, dammit dagnabbit dammit! I was totally hoping for Miranda armed with a pistol, assault rifle and for extreme situations, an Arc Projector. Which is what Miri's using anyways in my games. Or maybe she could use a machine gun and look like this:

[Caihn]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

In general a reaction to what just happened (the liquifying scene)

For her:
A reaction to what she saw and something that shows doubt in Cerberus, if you remember she started out as a staunch loyalist but in the end she can resign OR have doubts about keeping the base.  Now I don't mind it so much but I think it would have been nice to have some dialogue from her that shows the smallest of doubt  towards TIM...

If we can hear a dialogue betwen Miranda & TIM then it means Shepard is also there. So no, I would have been disapointed if Miranda would have shown doubts in font of other people than her boss. I think this kind of discussion should remain private, and the resignation scene and what she says after the SM is enough for me, I don't need more.
Of course, I don't mind some explanations in ME3 for the people who didn't see the resignation scene in ME2. But personaly I don't need justifications from her.

[Ieldra]

UserForFun wrote...
Something concrete to discuss..? Well, why Miranda switched her allegiance so abruptly, from Cerberus to Shepard in the Suicide Mission ( Regarding Collector Base ) I mean, I would had guess that such a change would happen gradually, but there is never hinted... Confused?

Hmph. Jumping right into my pet peeve. So of course I can't resist replying.

There are two perspectives of this: why she does so in your games, according to your interpretation, and what the game gives us. I can imagine several reasons:

(1) Miranda suspects that TIM might want to build a Reaper with the base, and thinks that's going too far.
(2) Miranda has brought Shepard back from the dead and seen what he can do. Going against him might mean she'd had too kill him, and she thinks Shepard's too important to be killed.
(3) Miranda sees that going against Shepard might mean she'd have to fight him, and is not confident she'd be able to win against Shepard and the second team member. She's not going to throw away her life in order to give TIM the base, especially if she also considers (1) above.

As for what the game gives us, there's her line "Using anything from this base seems like a betrayal" which she says if you bring her to the final boss and choose "This is an abomination" in the first exchange with TIM at the base. As far as I'm concerned, that's not Miranda speaking, but some sentimental twit I've never seen before in the game. To understand why I say it is out of character, consider the implications of what she says: Take some piece of machinery from the base somewhere else and use it, for instance to build a better weapon against the Reapers? Saying that such a thing seems like a betrayal is so off-the-rails irrational that I can never, ever see Miranda seriously make a recommendation based on this "feeling". This base could be of primary strategic importance in the war, and Miranda has 20 years of experience as a Cerberus operative and would always take that into consideration for whatever recommendation she makes. To give her that sentence is character assassination of the first order and damages her competence as an operative.

As for her resignation as such, it does come very sudden, but I could live with it were it not for that abominable line. Fortunately it's never been a problem in my games. I would like to see her resign, but I can't destroy the Collector base except in a For Science run. So in my games she doesn't resign.

Be warned that this is a topic people violently disagree about. It's partly responsible for what I like to call the Great Fanbase Split. Yannkee above and I are probably the most vocal posters of our respective factions.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 septembre 2011 - 08:30 .

[Ieldra]

JosephDucreux wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

flemm wrote...
I'd love a visor option in ME3 + sniper rifle as part of her loadout.

Like this?
(Right click=>View)
*snip*

To be honest, Miranda is unsuited for a sniper rifle. She's an intelligence operative, so why in hell would she use a sniper rifle? At most, she'd need a PDW or an assault rifle to defend herself, given that she's no soldier. Only frontline soldiers/SWAT personnel are trained in sniping and actually need to snipe, and Miranda certainly isn't either. As a general rule of thumb, if any sniping needs to be done, it's done by the frontliners, not the REMFs or intelligence people, which Miranda most definitely is. Miranda with an assault rifle still sounds good, but no, I just find that her using a sniper rifle is rather out of role for her. And no, subguns aren't used for spraying (despite what Hollywood says), they're used for sneaking around behind an enemy's back and killing the SOBs quickly. Which sounds a lot like Miranda to me.

Sniping is done by assassins, too, not just by frontline soldiers. I think occasionally doubling as an assassin fits Miranda's role as an intelligence operative much more than anything that would require an SMG, though she'd likely use more subtle methods in preference. An assault rifle is a soldier's weapon and doesn't fit Miranda at all. My preferred weapon selection would be a pistol and a sniper rifle. 

[xelander]

Well, her line right before resigning (or what, you'll replace me next?) is telling enough - she sees TIM as one who has no loyalty to her and consequently she does not owe him any anymore. If you went for most content playthrough, you've got quite enough material to provide background enough for her shifting loyalty, even if it's off-screen (Oriana, Jack, Overlord, saving the crew, watching Shep step into a mess for anyone on his crew, etc.). But even if you did a barebones playthrough, Shepard just lead his team through hell and back, accomplishing something that most thought impossible; the sense of camaraderie, brotherhood, w/e, must be at its peak in that moment. Being an idealist and crossing the line to pursue your ideals is all fine, but when your support system of friends, family, team, etc. (in her case TIM and Cerberus) shows you that they won't have your back, you have to cut ties and probably look for a new one.

What I have a problem with, as Ieldra does (even though we probably have vastly different perspectives on Miranda), is her line about this feeling as a betrayal. There are so many more better reasons for destroying the base - not trusting TIM with so much power, being afaid of indoctrination (it's partly Reaper technology and we've all seen this happen too often), reasoning that using the Reapaer technology would steer the development of humans/organics in predetermined pathways and thus beneficial for the Reapers, instead of coming up with something new and unexpected....

Instead, we're given this vague line and left to try and make sense of it. If the writers wanted to keep her reasons unrevealed for the moment, they could have done it in a better way.

Slightly OT - I've been thinking lately, the first step to defeat your enemy is to know your enemy, right?. Yet the Reapers have met every such attempt with indoctrination, and it's unfeasible to base our evaluation of a race of machines off of our organic experience/way of thinking. The galaxy would need to find answers in some other way and I'd very much like MIri to be part of that (it would really mesh well with her character) . Sadly though, the writerts seem to turn to the Protheans and Liara for that (making me even resent the asari, to a degree).

[Ieldra]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

UserForFun wrote...

Oh? Can you provide a link? My statement was more inclined towards a question, as Miranda apart from Mordin, are my favorite characters.

Edit -- What makes you worried? The writters have changed?

Don't mean to one-up MisterJB but this is all we know of so far related to Miranda for ME3:

"Miranda needs to be back, has unfinished business with Shepard and more so if romanced":
Starting @29:36:
www.ea.com/gamescom/mass-effect-3-live-broadcast


Mac Walters was at this point reviewing multiple Miranda scenes:
twitter.com/#!/macwalterslives/status/95579046506795008
I can safely say, it is not. Sorry. But I can tell you I have several Miranda scenes to review when I get back!


And our own Ieldra2 went to Gamescom closed door Q&A:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/325/index/7625709/389#8157170
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/325/index/7625709/389#8157199

Just to comment on the closed Q&A: they wanted to make a video from it, but there were technical difficulties, so all you have is the word from anyone of the 80 participants that Mike Gamble really did say "She will have a large role" after I asked "will Miranda be a main character?". 

Of course that may be just the usual non-answer. The best statement regarding Miranda's presence in ME3 is still Mac Walters' above. Several scenes sounds good and very likely removes one of our worst-case scenarios.

[Ieldra]

I think I like this picture better:

[jtav]

I have something to say about Miranda, her romance, and ME3, but it isn't positive or flattering. Still interested?

Modifié par jtav, 30 septembre 2011 - 12:13 .

[Ieldra]

xelander wrote...
Well, her line right before resigning (or what, you'll replace me next?) is telling enough - she sees TIM as one who has no loyalty to her and consequently she does not owe him any anymore. If you went for most content playthrough, you've got quite enough material to provide background enough for her shifting loyalty, even if it's off-screen (Oriana, Jack, Overlord, saving the crew, watching Shep step into a mess for anyone on his crew, etc.). But even if you did a barebones playthrough, Shepard just lead his team through hell and back, accomplishing something that most thought impossible; the sense of camaraderie, brotherhood, w/e, must be at its peak in that moment. Being an idealist and crossing the line to pursue your ideals is all fine, but when your support system of friends, family, team, etc. (in her case TIM and Cerberus) shows you that they won't have your back, you have to cut ties and probably look for a new one.

I can see no indication that TIM doesn't appreciate her any more. Yes, TIM is ready to throw away Shepard, who he has spent a few billion credits and Miranda has spent two years to bring back. You can see that as an indication that TIM treats everyone as a tool but I can't imagine Miranda didn't know before that everyone's expandable to him including her. We cannot see into Miranda's brain, but the game gives us exactly nothing except one optional line at the Collector base which you only get if you choose one specific option in the conversation about the trap.

What I can see is that Miranda, who values loyalty, is impressed by the tight-knit team Shepard put together and the way they fight for each other in contrast to TIM who's all too ready to throw his "tools" away, especially if no one has died up to that point in the SM. But that's dependent on decisions earlier in the game, and it's all speculation anyway.  

What I have a problem with, as Ieldra does (even though we probably have vastly different perspectives on Miranda), is her line about this feeling as a betrayal. There are so many more better reasons for destroying the base - not trusting TIM with so much power, being afaid of indoctrination (it's partly Reaper technology and we've all seen this happen too often), reasoning that using the Reapaer technology would steer the development of humans/organics in predetermined pathways and thus beneficial for the Reapers, instead of coming up with something new and unexpected....

Instead, we're given this vague line and left to try and make sense of it. If the writers wanted to keep her reasons unrevealed for the moment, they could have done it in a better way.

The problem with this isn't that it's vague. In fact, it is not vague but very specific. The problem is that it's not just non-pragmatic, but makes no sense if you use any kind of rational moral reasoning. You do no harm by using a piece of technology from the base to develop better weapons (which her line would exclude), you don't betray anyone or do any kind of injustice. It might even be argued that if you don't use the base, everyone there has died for nothing. Miranda might feel that it would be wrong based on what was done with the base, similar to how people thought it was wrong to use the results of n*zi experiments regardless of their benefits, but to make a decision in a galactic war where you grasp at straws to avoid extinction based on that, that's insane. Miranda would never do that.    

Slightly OT - I've been thinking lately, the first step to defeat your enemy is to know your enemy, right?. Yet the Reapers have met every such attempt with indoctrination, and it's unfeasible to base our evaluation of a race of machines off of our organic experience/way of thinking. The galaxy would need to find answers in some other way and I'd very much like MIri to be part of that (it would really mesh well with her character) . Sadly though, the writerts seem to turn to the Protheans and Liara for that (making me even resent the asari, to a degree).

My hope is that (perhaps only if we keep the base) Miranda will be able to find a protective measure against indoctrination. She's better placed to do that than anyone else. 
And yeah, the way Liara's pushed into everyone's faces is annoying, to say nothing that the whole asari species shouldn't exist in the first place. Omnisexual blue-skinned space babes, no thank you. I had some hope Miranda would become the primary intelligence-gatherer on the team in ME3 *grumbles*. Though I appreciate the opportunity to learn more about the Protheans.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 septembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[nitefyre410]

@jtav its an Open forum go ahead

[Athayniel]

Miranda does not strike me as the sort who makes her internal thoughts or debates public until she is ready to act on them. We don't know how long she's been having doubts and projecting a confident facade or anything like that. Not even the dust up with Jack is enough to point one way or the other because she could just be lashing out at Jack verbally in frustration at her own doubts, etc.

We don't even know when she came to a decision about herself and Cerberus.

The only thing we do know is when she decided to act on it.

Modifié par Athayniel, 30 septembre 2011 - 12:30 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I have something to say about Miranda, her romance, and ME3, but it isn't positive or flattering. Still interested?

Sure

Ieldra2 wrote...
Of course that may be just the usual non-answer. The best statement regarding Miranda's presence in ME3 is still Mac Walters' above. Several scenes sounds good and very likely removes one of our worst-case scenarios.

+ 1 other scene confirmed later:

"Well I just finished first pass writing on a scene with the lovely Ms. Lawson. One of the most fun/challenging dialogs to date!"

Modifié par flemm, 30 septembre 2011 - 12:41 .

[jtav]

Well, I've been thinking about Miranda's romance in light of our recent discussions about the engine room scene and catsuits. The primary romantic function for Miranda is that of Temptress (and easy marketing to newbie), particularly when her rival is Ashley. The sex scene wasn't meant to some kind of emotionally evocative topic of discussion; it was to arouse a particular type of gamer. Miranda is everything Hollywood tells us is sexy. The catsuits are part of that She's cheating-bait. Now I'm certain those who wish will get there happy ending, but I think her romance is mostly there to appeal to the stereotypical gamer and to tempt those who did romances in the first game to abandon it. And, if you romanced Ash at least, fidelity will be rewarded by getting an Ash who's sexy in the exact same way as Miranda.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
Miranda is everything Hollywood tells us is sexy.

Is she really? Mostly Hollywood seems to prefer skinny/blond/sweetheart types.

Miranda is meant to be sexy of course, but that's a given.

As for the romance path overall, I expect, as you say, that multiple options will be in the game, which is cool.

[Prudii Aden]

Hollywood/fashion these days seems to go for the absurdly willowy types, not curvaceous women. It's possible that she's there as temptation for people who romanced Ashley in 2, but if that's all she was there for, I'm like as not going to do a lot of save game editing once I've done my first playthrough.

Also, at the time the first came out, there was no guarantee that 2 would ever see the light of day.