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[flemm]

Beyond that, these games don't revolve around the romances. They're just not that important.


Image for the top:

Modifié par flemm, 30 septembre 2011 - 01:16 .

[nitefyre410]

Prudii Aden wrote...

Hollywood/fashion these days seems to go for the absurdly willowy types, not curvaceous women. It's possible that she's there as temptation for people who romanced Ashley in 2, but if that's all she was there for, I'm like as not going to do a lot of save game editing once I've done my first playthrough.

Also, at the time the first came out, there was no guarantee that 2 would ever see the light of day.

 


Christina Hendricks Esquire most beautiful woman in Hollywood would like to politely disagree with the Hollywood status quo 



Plus that attitude is changing quickly - still the runaway and model scene is still very much stuck in that matra. I have theroy but it was set the  Miranda forum on fire.  


As for  Miranda as bait to "Cheat" on  Ashley.  I don't call it cheating cause   Shepard was  clinical dead for 2 years.
If Miranda was bait she was most un tempting bait i have every scene.   Matter of fact she does anything remotely seductive to try attract Shepard  while Shepard did all the chasing.   - Reservse Psychology maybe, some hard to  get.  


I think alot of the issues with Miranda and Ashleys  new design is that People seem to think that an attractive  woman that has sexy appeal =/= equal an intelligent competitant, and self assurded woman which is not true a woman can be both and many in  their daily lives ARE both..   The more of the reactions I see around the net to not just Mass Effect but DC's Reboot of there characters, etc,etc the more I believe that maybe the creators might be farther ahead in the thinking than that audience.  

Modifié par nitefyre410, 30 septembre 2011 - 01:19 .

[jtav]

I did specify romantic function. Plot function would be Cerberus representative and true believer, as well as advice giver and crutch character. That doesn't preclude her from also being something of a Bond girl.

[The Elder King]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think I like this picture better:


snip

I agree.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
That doesn't preclude her from also being something of a Bond girl.

No, that's true. But as long as she's not limited to that, does it really matter? The design of the game is to have options, and space for the player to create a story.

So, once ME3 is done, we'll probably have the option to play Ashley as Shepard's true love, with Miranda as a hot fling in between, or Miranda as Shepard's true love, with Ashley being the sweet girl who just couldn't hold a candle to the real thing. And many other paths/interpretations as well.

[nitefyre410]

jtav wrote...

I did specify romantic function. Plot function would be Cerberus representative and true believer, as well as advice giver and crutch character. That doesn't preclude her from also being something of a Bond girl.

 

Nothing wrong with Bonds girls especially some the  Bond Girls from the  older  Bond movies. They  actually  stole and made the movies more than Bond himself at times.   


Some of the newers ones   meh...


The Girl from  Quatum of Solace  the  Spec Ops girl that used undercover was the best i have seen in a  while.  It was more the a relationship between two people that understood each need for revenge very well and the feeling associated with it more than a sexy romp type of the relationship. 

That be said Bioware did not help their  case with those ass shots, hell I'm a guy I found those annoying and what guy would complain about   shoot of a fine sclupted rear end... 

[Athayniel]

Prudii Aden wrote...
Hollywood/fashion these days seems to go for the absurdly willowy types,
not curvaceous women. It's possible that she's there as temptation for
people who romanced Ashley in 2, but if that's all she was there for,
I'm like as not going to do a lot of save game editing once I've done my
first playthrough.

Also, at the time the first came out, there was no guarantee that 2 would ever see the light of day.

I don't think there was much doubt even before ME1 came out that there would be an ME2. BioWare already had a solid track record of shifting many many boxes of RPGs even on consoles. Mass Effect was always envisioned as a trilogy and ME1 would have had to bomb spectacularly for there not to have been a sequel.

*edit* Sorry Prudii... forgot to quote you.

Modifié par Athayniel, 30 septembre 2011 - 01:38 .

[xelander]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I can see no indication that TIM doesn't appreciate her any more. Yes, TIM is ready to throw away Shepard, who he has spent a few billion credits and Miranda has spent two years to bring back. You can see that as an indication that TIM treats everyone as a tool but I can't imagine Miranda didn't know before that everyone's expandable to him including her. We cannot see into Miranda's brain, but the game gives us exactly nothing except one optional line at the Collector base which you only get if you choose one specific option in the conversation about the trap.

What I can see is that Miranda, who values loyalty, is impressed by the tight-knit team Shepard put together and the way they fight for each other in contrast to TIM who's all too ready to throw his "tools" away, especially if no one has died up to that point in the SM. But that's dependent on decisions earlier in the game, and it's all speculation anyway. 

I guess that's part of her character, and how she is presented, with much happening behind the scenes (I mean her keeping her thoughts to herself). It seems to me we more or less share the same opinion when reasoning why she quits Cerberus, though you've got a problem with the game not providing enough background when you don't go for the "more content" playthrough.

I'm confused, do you mean on the Disabled Collecter Ship? I don't remember a line about a trap on the Collector Base (Suicide Mission).

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem with this isn't that it's vague. In fact, it is not vague but very specific. The problem is that it's not just non-pragmatic, but makes no sense if you use any kind of rational moral reasoning. You do no harm by using a piece of technology from the base to develop better weapons (which her line would exclude), you don't betray anyone or do any kind of injustice. It might even be argued that if you don't use the base, everyone there has died for nothing. Miranda might feel that it would be wrong based on what was done with the base, similar to how people thought it was wrong to use the results of n*zi experiments regardless of their benefits, but to make a decision in a galactic war where you grasp at straws to avoid extinction based on that, that's insane. Miranda would never do that.    

For me, it sounds vague, coming from a woman who up unitll now has been very articulate and had no trouble expressing herself. But now suddenly she has a "feeling it's a betrayal"? It sounds more like she can't explain to herself why they should not keep the base.

On the bolded part, I disagree. There are certainly valid reasons to not keep the base, and I've listed some of them in my previous post. Different players will have different opinions on the matter and they don't have to align with Miranda's, but either her explanation is OOC, or her reasoning (if her explanation is taken at face value) is.

Ieldra2 wrote...
My hope is that (perhaps only if we keep the base) Miranda will be able to find a protective measure against indoctrination. She's better placed to do that than anyone else. 
And yeah, the way Liara's pushed into everyone's faces is annoying, to say nothing that the whole asari species shouldn't exist in the first place. Omnisexual blue-skinned space babes, no thank you. I had some hope Miranda would become the primary intelligence-gatherer on the team in ME3 *grumbles*. Though I appreciate the opportunity to learn more about the Protheans.

I don't mind the cheese factor of the asari race. It's just that this Mary Sue thing going on is a little over the top.
Interesting though, the Protheans managed to build the Conduit and seal the Citadel relay in time, but they got Collector-ized. So the question remains - how do you know an enemy, when the very attempt to do so results in wiping out your identity? I'd be disappointed if the smartest human woman didn't have at least a part in figuring this out.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Well, I've been thinking about Miranda's romance in light of our recent discussions about the engine room scene and catsuits. The primary romantic function for Miranda is that of Temptress (and easy marketing to newbie), particularly when her rival is Ashley. The sex scene wasn't meant to some kind of emotionally evocative topic of discussion; it was to arouse a particular type of gamer. Miranda is everything Hollywood tells us is sexy. The catsuits are part of that She's cheating-bait. Now I'm certain those who wish will get there happy ending, but I think her romance is mostly there to appeal to the stereotypical gamer and to tempt those who did romances in the first game to abandon it. And, if you romanced Ash at least, fidelity will be rewarded by getting an Ash who's sexy in the exact same way as Miranda.

I disagree with the hypothesis that Miranda is mostly aimed at the stereotypical gamer. If that was so, they'd have kept her appearance but made her more like Tali in personality. Certainly there's a lot of fanservice in her appearance, her outfits as well as the Ice Queen Melting trope. Miranda as "cheating-bait", well, maybe that too, that's why many of us here replayed ME1 to ditch Ashley.  But if that's all they wanted to do, they could've made her quite a bit less interesting. We'll see how it goes in ME3 - if she's got the competence and badassery wanted by all of her fans here (I haven't seen anyone who doesn't yet), then I think your hypothesis will have been disproved.

As for Ashley, I don't think they planned to remake her like that from the start. Apart
from that, I think Ashley is quite beautiful as she was in ME1, and
actually she's - heresy warning - always been as beautiful as Miranda.

[jtav]

Well, it's not as if I'm fond of the hypothesis, mind you. But I don't think they expected people to get as emotionally attached as they did.

Modifié par jtav, 30 septembre 2011 - 02:36 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
But I don't think they expected people to get as emotionally attached as they did.

I don't know... I think that most of Miranda's romance (and related character interactions) are written to satisfy a certain fantasy, but not mostly the one where you have meaningless sex with a hot chick.

It's more the fantasy where you have this incredibly gorgeous woman who is good at everything, has everything, could be with anyone, and is initially indifferent to you, but decides to fall in love with you because you have a certain intangible awesomeness that she admires and you help her get in touch with her feelings. A wealthy princess/dashing rogue sort of thing, but from a sci-fi angle.

That's where the disconnect on the engine room scene comes in, I think, for a lot of fans of the romance. It feels like the culmination of a different fantasy than the one most of the Miranda material is written for.

Modifié par flemm, 30 septembre 2011 - 03:43 .

[jtav]

flemm wrote...

That's where the disconnect on the engine room scene comes in, I think, for a lot of fans of the romance. It feels like the culmination of a different fantasy than the one most of the Miranda material is written for.

You know, I think you have something there. It's kind of a poor-man's Han/Leia until that moment, when it turns more into a Bond flick. And we do go into these things to get particular itches scratched. Mine was female Mr. Darcy, and it kind of works.

[flemm]

I also think that the fantasy I described above is a pretty powerful one for a lot of guys. For the simple reason that most guys aren't that rich/good-looking/powerful... so, the idea that there might be a certain intangible something about them that a powerful/smart/beautiful woman like Miranda would fall for... that's an attractive idea.

I think that's why you get quite a few posts that say something like... "I loved the Miranda romance, but it ended horribly! The engine room?!?!?! WTF?!?!?!" It's because, far from looking for a quickie with Miranda, she was working more like an idealized "it was meant to be, in spite of all our differences" type of thing for them. So they were looking more for an "I sweep her off her feet and into the bridal chamber" type of ending.

Modifié par flemm, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:08 .

[jtav]

As long as the epilogue's more "power couple" and less "2.5 kids and white-picket fence."

[CuseGirl]

For the life of me, I do not understand the angst over that one line of dialogue, "it feels like a betrayal". How is it out of character in anyway? She's not completely emotionless. She's pragmatic but that doesn't mean she can't "feel" some type of way about the Collector Base. She was irrational enuff to not see Niket's scheme during her loyalty mission. Why is the betrayal line such a big deal?

Also, wut dialogue do other characters have in that situation (if anyone has that available)? That line may have nothing to do with Miranda but just some standard line that all the squaddies have about how terrible it would be to keep the base.

Modifié par CuseGirl, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:15 .

[CuseGirl]

jtav wrote...

Well, it's not as if I'm fond of the hypothesis, mind you. But I don't think they expected people to get as emotionally attached as they did.

why not? She's not an Asari, she's not covered in a bubble suit, she's doesn't have saggy teet armor, and she's not half naked covered in tattoos. And (if u followed the games production) you knew the character was designed after an actual person, which I think adds some wierd odd fantasy there (might have just revealed something sordid about myself).......as a marketing tool, Miranda is easy to hook in gamers, even by the cover art: Alrite, that guy with the gun looks kinda cool and whose that chick in the back? hmmmmmm......

[MisterJB]

This argument again?

CuseGirl wrote...
Also, wut dialogue do other characters have in that situation (if anyone has that available)? That line may have nothing to do with Miranda but just some standard line that all the squaddies have about how terrible it would be to keep the base.

Garrus: I don't know, Shepard. What happened here was horrible, but we have to stop the Reapers. If we destroy this base then all these people died for nothing.
Grunt: He's right. When your enemy gives you a weapon, you use it. You might not get another chance.
Jack: Seriously? Shepard, he's a user, just like Collectors.
Jacob: It's better because we'll do it? Shepard, this is way over the line.
Kasumi: Shep, he's talking about doing it all again. How will that help anything?
Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.
Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand--using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.
Mordin: Agreed. Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity.
Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.
Tali: Shepard, we fought to stop it. Us using it doesn't make it right.
Thane: Shepard/Siha, I've made a life of killing those who deserve to die. We must struggle to not become what we hate.
Zaeed: Someone gives you a weapon, you don't complain that it's dirty--you use it.

[Ieldra]

CuseGirl wrote...
For the life of me, I do not understand the angst over that one line of dialogue, "it feels like a betrayal". How is it out of character in anyway? She's not completely emotionless. She's pragmatic but that doesn't mean she can't "feel" some type of way about the Collector Base. She was irrational enuff to not see Niket's scheme during her loyalty mission. Why is the betrayal line such a big deal?

It's not that she feels that that's the problem. It's that she appears to make a recommendation in a very important strategic decision based on that feeling. It's OK with Niket and Oriana, that's personal and doesn't affect the fate of the galaxy. At the CB, things are very, very different. So what I'd expect her to say is something like this: "I feel very uncomfortable about this, but we can't discount the possibility that the base might contain invaluable information about the Reapers. It's your choice, Shepard."

Also, wut dialogue do other characters have in that situation (if anyone has that available)? That line may have nothing to do with Miranda but just some standard line that all the squaddies have about how terrible it would be to keep the base.

Unfortunately not. This dialogue is unique, she's talking to TIM when she says that, unlike all other team members, and she says it when you choose the Paragon option, as opposed to everyone else who gets a line only if you choose an option they disagree with.

And the angst, that's the fear that Miranda's competence will be compromised and her pragmatism mostly lost, and that we who like her morally ambiguous, pragmatic and hypercompetent will see her turned into a standard romance heroine whose emotions always override her common sense, getting her in trouble from which she must be rescued by the hero. As a one-time event, that line is a major annoyance. As an indication of things to come, it's an unmitigated disaster.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:45 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

As long as the epilogue's more "power couple" and less "2.5 kids and white-picket fence."

I would think "power couple." If for no other reason than the alternative doesn't really exist in this sort of fantasy game.

To complete my current musings of the subject of the Miranda-mance, a couple of more thoughts:

1) The fantasy I described above basically assumes the woman is a virgin, at least in its most basic form. Which I think probably accounts, at least in part, for the controversy about Miranda's level of sexual experience. If you see her as basically a ruthless super-spy, then her being sexually experienced feels like an added level of power, an extra weapon in her arsenal. But if you see her as more of an idealized romantic partner, well, not so much.

2) I think it might also account for why approving of the CB dialogue/decision tends to line up with being a fan of the romance. It fits with the whole trajectory of Miranda getting in touch with her feelings, questioning her old allegiances, and basically falling in love/running away with the rogue, in spite of the fact that her father (TIM, figuratively) doesn't approve/has other plans for her, etc.

EDIT: I think I would go so far as to say that the CB thing is a better culmination of the romance, as most of it is written, than the engine room scene.

Modifié par flemm, 30 septembre 2011 - 04:46 .

[jtav]

I dispute your second point. As far as I know, I'm the only person here who doesn't like the romance, but the CB was more even. And I suggest that people who want that particular variety of idealized partner (minimal experience, etc.) find someone else.

[CuseGirl]

to MisterJB, thanks. Didn't kno that was available.

To Ieldra2: Is it possible that because of marketing and her plot armor, the writers deliberately align her dialogue with a paragon Shepard? Out of all the crew members (including Jacob), she's the only one cutting ties at that moment.

And why you thought Miranda was going to be more than the "standard heroine" is beyond me. These writers don't re-invent the wheel if it continues to work. The majority of gamers who bought this game and at least have knowledge of a possible romance are the types of people who expect their girl to side with them.

I just see it as Miranda having a different view of the world after being apart of Shep's team. Even Mordin, the smartest guy on the ship, learned something while being apart of the team. With enuff paragon, Shep can talk Garrus out of murder. Is it too much to believe Miranda doesn't see the Collector Base as an abomination? She said "seeing it firsthand". Not after sending a crew of people to scout the deal and then over an intercom command them to collect data. She saw Lilith go up flames. That's enuff for me. But I agree to disagree, characterization can be very powerful.

[CuseGirl]

flemm wrote...
EDIT: I think I would go so far as to say that the CB thing is a better culmination of the romance, as most of it is written, than the engine room scene.

doesn't she behave like that regardless of the romance tho? That's probably wut makes it worse for some gamers. It has nothing to do with Shep's relationship, so it must be generated by another reason.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
I dispute your second point. As far as I know, I'm the only person here who doesn't like the romance, but the CB was more even.

I don't think that's true at all, even judging by the last fifty pages or so. On the contrary, a lot of people posting in this particular thread have issues with the romance, in one form or another. Granted, this is partly due to the simple nature of this type of fan thread.

jtav wrote...
And I suggest that people who want that particular variety of idealized partner (minimal experience, etc.) find someone else.

That's as may be. I'm not arguing for one thing or another. Just discussing/analysing.

CuseGirl wrote...
doesn't she behave like that regardless of the romance tho? That's probably wut makes it worse for some gamers.

Yes, and probably. But the line certainly flows more smoothly if you do the romance + a lot of the Paragon options along the way. (It is only spoken, I believe, if you pick the Paragon option at the CB as well.)

Modifié par flemm, 30 septembre 2011 - 05:01 .

[Ieldra]

CuseGirl wrote...
To Ieldra2: Is it possible that because of marketing and her plot armor, the writers deliberately align her dialogue with a paragon Shepard? Out of all the crew members (including Jacob), she's the only one cutting ties at that moment.

Yes, that's quite possible. If that's all there is to it, that's OK with me.

And why you thought Miranda was going to be more than the "standard heroine" is beyond me. These writers don't re-invent the wheel if it continues to work. The majority of gamers who bought this game and at least have knowledge of a possible romance are the types of people who expect their girl to side with them.

I expect that because (a) she's shown as a morally ambiguous superspy throughout one whole game, ( because Bioware has made strong female characters before and © because that old stereotype has ceased to be quite as popular as before, even in romances. Ask jtav who reads that stuff. All I want is the Miranda that 99% of ME2 showed me (including the emotional parts but not when it goes against all strategic reasoning), one that hasn't suffered from Badass Decay.

I just see it as Miranda having a different view of the world after being apart of Shep's team. Even Mordin, the smartest guy on the ship, learned something while being apart of the team. With enuff paragon, Shep can talk Garrus out of murder. Is it too much to believe Miranda doesn't see the Collector Base as an abomination? She said "seeing it firsthand". Not after sending a crew of people to scout the deal and then over an intercom command them to collect data. She saw Lilith go up flames. That's enuff for me. But I agree to disagree, characterization can be very powerful.

You're basically saying that Miranda becomes a totally different person after having been a part of Shepard's team. I don't buy that, and yes, IMO it's absolutely unthinkable that rational, pragmatic Miranda would think of the CB in such terms when it comes to making the decision. She'd take a mental step back and think about it, then make a recommendation based on strategic reasoning. TIM's possible horrible plans for it may be a factor in her decision, but that aspect wouldn't dominate her reasoning to the exclusion of everything else.

@flemm:
Yes she only says that if you pick the Paragon option in the first exchange with TIM. A saving grace if you ask me, for you can avoid it even if you're going to destroy the base.
 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 septembre 2011 - 05:14 .

[jtav]

And I dislike the insinuation that she's best suited to Paragon because she is quite literally the only option someone who plays a pure Renegade male can have.