82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Skullheart]

just saw this fanart by rawenie in deviantart...

Modifié par Skullheart, 30 septembre 2011 - 05:26 .

[Ieldra]

@flemm:
You raise interesting points, but I don't think Miranda was designed to be that idealized romantic partner. She's infertile, you know. That's usually perceived as far from ideal. If anything, LotSB has seriously damaged that image if it has ever been there.

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

And I dislike the insinuation that she's best suited to Paragon because she is quite literally the only option someone who plays a pure Renegade male can have.

Honestly, I don't believe pure Renegades should logically be able to get anyone, considering how unpleasant they are.

[jtav]

Unless they go for a particularr romance novel trope that would make me do violence to my computer...

[raziel1980]

Xilizhra wrote...

jtav wrote...

And I dislike the insinuation that she's best suited to Paragon because she is quite literally the only option someone who plays a pure Renegade male can have.

Honestly, I don't believe pure Renegades should logically be able to get anyone, considering how unpleasant they are.

That's why I never play as a renegade... I for the most part to renegon runs...but my paragon choices and interrupts are kept to the minimum( which for me is like 5)... I also seem to do this when I play as a paragade.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
And I dislike the insinuation that she's best suited to Paragon because she is quite literally the only option someone who plays a pure Renegade male can have.

This actually gives me some hope for Miranda's portrayal in ME3. I know Bioware's thrice-damned Paragon favoritism, but I can't believe they'll leave Renegades out in the cold when it comes to the romances.

I'm not playing pure Renegades, but that applies equally to Renegons. Basically to everyone who makes the pragmatic Renegade decisions but not those that make you a jerk. Those are the Shepards closest to Miranda's and Mordin's mindset anyway. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 septembre 2011 - 05:37 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
She's infertile, you know. That's usually perceived as far from ideal.

Introduced after the fact, however, and precise status of this is uncertain. As is how it will play out in ME3. If anything, I think it tends to confirm some of what I said earlier, as it is in effect the nightmarish development or "twist" for that type of fantasy.

For the super-spy, it's almost a bonus, really.

Modifié par flemm, 30 septembre 2011 - 05:36 .

[CuseGirl]

jtav wrote...

And I dislike the insinuation that she's best suited to Paragon because she is quite literally the only option someone who plays a pure Renegade male can have.

no, I didn't say she was best suited for a Paragon shep. But the large majority of people who bought this game (who buy MOST games) are male, 18 to 28/32-ish, probably caucasian and want to pretend to be the galaxy's last hope and in the end want the girl, car/space-frigate, and the dog/Grunt/Joker (lol) and go off into the sunset/Omega-4-relay.

And is it a coincidence that Miranda would be "suited" for both paragon and renegade Sheps? That's all marketing. They WANT a large group of Sheps to WANT her. Look, I love Miranda. I do. But I also kno that these developers/writers calculate everything they do. There's a reason Jack isn't on the cover of Mass Effect 2 but Miranda is. Heck, there's a reason Jacob isn't on the cover but Thane is. That's marketing as well. Don't let your RPG desires cloud what's really going on here.

[jtav]

I don't play pure Renegades either, but the game does encourage pure playthroughs and Tali's and Jack's can be broken by Renegade choices.

[Skullheart]

Mmmm... what renegade option/interruption Miranda won't approve? Besides the CB, a lot of people find that OOC.

Maybe overlord, but that is a conflict betwen her ideals about Cerberus and her thougths of rcher using his own brother ( Miranda would never use Oriana in any experiment).

[The Elder King]

jtav wrote...

I don't play pure Renegades either, but the game does encourage pure playthroughs and Tali's and Jack's can be broken by Renegade choices.

You're right. And the fact that the confrontation between Tali/Legion and Miranda/Jack, with consequences on the loyalty, is a proof of that. The way they treated the P/R system is much worse than ME.
That's why I'm using now Gibbed to put enough Paragon/Renegade points, so I can play the game as I like (well, and to play a proper NG+. I really hope that they don't do the same mistake in ME3) and choose whatever option I want.

Modifié par hhh89, 30 septembre 2011 - 05:47 .

[Ieldra]

CuseGirl wrote...

jtav wrote...
And I dislike the insinuation that she's best suited to Paragon because she is quite literally the only option someone who plays a pure Renegade male can have.

no, I didn't say she was best suited for a Paragon shep. But the large majority of people who bought this game (who buy MOST games) are male, 18 to 28/32-ish, probably caucasian and want to pretend to be the galaxy's last hope and in the end want the girl, car/space-frigate, and the dog/Grunt/Joker (lol) and go off into the sunset/Omega-4-relay.

May I remind you that the average player's age is around 40 (based on a recent poll). Consider also that ME2 is a little more mature than most games. I contest your hypothesis.
And well, of course we want the woman and the cool starship (can do without the "dog", LOL) and go off into the far reaches of the galaxy, but I'd rather do that with a badass ex-operative than with a sentimental daisy. Power couple all the way!

And is it a coincidence that Miranda would be "suited" for both paragon and renegade Sheps? That's all marketing. They WANT a large group of Sheps to WANT her. Look, I love Miranda. I do. But I also kno that these developers/writers calculate everything they do. There's a reason Jack isn't on the cover of Mass Effect 2 but Miranda is. Heck, there's a reason Jacob isn't on the cover but Thane is. That's marketing as well. Don't let your RPG desires cloud what's really going on here.

Of course, of course. That's exactly one reason why I contest your hypothesis. I also think you're a little behind the times with your estimation of what the player base wants. I like to compare ME2's LIs with BG2's: We have the sweet girl (Aerie and Tali), the somewhat standoffish and competent woman (Jaheira and Miranda) and the somewhat abrasive, unstable and unpredictable one (Viconia and Jack). The sex appeal got shuffled around a bit, but the similarities are striking. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 septembre 2011 - 05:53 .

[CuseGirl]

Ieldra2 wrote...
May I remind you that the average player's age is around 40 (based on a recent poll). Consider also that ME2 is a little more mature than most games. I contest your hypothesis.

Of course, of course. That's exactly one reason why I contest your hypothesis. I also think you're a little behind the times with your estimation of what the player base wants.

what kind of poll? A magazine poll? A poll based on verifiabled sales data? I have a hard time believing that largest group buying a shooter/RPG is 40 yrs old.

EDIT: Take that back, I can believe 40 yr olds are the largest PURCHASING group, because they have 30 to 60 bucks to plop down on games. But I think the game itself is marketed to a younger group.

Modifié par CuseGirl, 30 septembre 2011 - 06:10 .

[Ieldra]

Skullheart wrote...
Mmmm... what renegade option/interruption Miranda won't approve? Besides the CB, a lot of people find that OOC.

Maybe overlord, but that is a conflict betwen her ideals about Cerberus and her thougths of rcher using his own brother ( Miranda would never use Oriana in any experiment).

Hmm, now that you mention it, you can count the situations on one hand.
(1) Jack's LM: I can't see Miranda encouraging Jack to kill Aresh on her LM.
(2) ME1/Feros: I can't see Miranda killing the colonists on Feros without even trying to use the anti-Thorian grenades.
(3) Overlord: a borderline case. I can't see Miranda leaving Archer in charge, but I can see her continuing the studies of David's communication with the geth.  
(4) Zaeed's LM: I can't see Miranda leaving the workers to burn.
(5) Samara's LM: Killing Samara

That's about it. I don't think she'd have a problem with any other major Renegade decision. Or have I forgotten anything?

*edited "Killing Samara" in based on jtav's statement below. Thanks, jtav.*

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 septembre 2011 - 06:13 .

[jtav]

Sparing Morinth.

[Ieldra]

CuseGirl wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
May I remind you that the average player's age is around 40 (based on a recent poll). Consider also that ME2 is a little more mature than most games. I contest your hypothesis.

Of course, of course. That's exactly one reason why I contest your hypothesis. I also think you're a little behind the times with your estimation of what the player base wants.

what kind of poll? A magazine poll? A poll based on verifiabled sales data? I have a hard time believing that largest group buying a shooter/RPG is 40 yrs old.

Data collected by the Entertainment Software Association. See here: http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp. It's not genre-specific though, just averaged over all games. The three most interesting facts:

• The average game player is 37 years old and has been playing games for 12 years.
• The average age of the most frequent game purchaser is 41 years old.
• Forty-two percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (37 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (13 percent)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 septembre 2011 - 06:14 .

[jtav]

And, really, all I'm asking is for Miranda to be on the level of a Marvel heroine. Say, Black Widow? Who can kill you dead, do questionable things, and loved her boyfriend very much.

[CuseGirl]

just googled that before u posted lollll.....i can't believe the gaming population is that old....are games that complicated or have we just gotten older? I'm only 24, been playing games since my mom bought SNES for my sister and she never used it....

Miranda just oozes "designed for male gamer" marketing and the omission of Jacob from the cover....well let me not open that can of worms.....

Some of my family members have seen me play ME-2 and they say "that's just too complicated for me, too much stuff going on".

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That's about it. I don't think she'd have a problem with any other major Renegade decision. Or have I forgotten anything?

The Racnhi Queen, maybe? On one hand, it is a risk and Miranda tends to take the safer route. On the other, it is genocide and she did seem to aprove when Cerberus stopped their experiments on the Racnhi.

[raziel1980]

jtav wrote...

I don't play pure Renegades either, but the game does encourage pure playthroughs and Tali's and Jack's can be broken by Renegade choices.

I usually save their loyality missions for last  just for that reason so I can have the highest amount of points in renegade or paragon( depending on what I'm playing as) possible at that point so those situations don't bite hurt( not to mention shep's renegade lines in Tali's mission are HILARIOUS).

[darthoptimus003]

i romanced her in the second game and noone in the first i hope she is back cause i want to see how that ends

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

And, really, all I'm asking is for Miranda to be on the level of a Marvel heroine. Say, Black Widow? Who can kill you dead, do questionable things, and loved her boyfriend very much.

I always sort of considered Miranda to be Mass Effect's version of the Black Widow. Now I really want to create a Shepard inspired by The Winter Soldier to go along with that entire line of thought.

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

jtav wrote...

And, really, all I'm asking is for Miranda to be on the level of a Marvel heroine. Say, Black Widow? Who can kill you dead, do questionable things, and loved her boyfriend very much.

I always sort of considered Miranda to be Mass Effect's version of the Black Widow. Now I really want to create a Shepard inspired by The Winter Soldier to go along with that entire line of thought.

What's he like? I know Black Widow and find the similarities to Miranda interesting, but haven't read a lot of her stuff.

@darthoptimus003:
She will be back and there will be a "final resolution" to her romance. What we're debating here, among other things, is how much screen presence she will have.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 septembre 2011 - 07:28 .

[jtav]

Doc, will you marry me? I do love Bucky/Natasha. Bucky's not a direct model for my MaleSheps, but I did borrow a few things. And I need something after Fear Itself.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
May I remind you that the average player's age is around 40 (based on a recent poll).

Age does not equal maturity, though. That's especially true when you consider that this type of fantasy game allows people to do things they normally don't, and act in ways they normally couldn't. And I don't mean that in a critical way. There is nothing inherently laudable about being mature all the time. So anyway, being surprised about the average age of ME fans probably says more about our assumptions regarding older people than about the level of maturity of the fanbase (at least when they are playing the game).

jtav wrote...
And I dislike the insinuation that she's best suited to Paragon because she is quite literally the only option someone who plays a pure Renegade male can have.

Not the point at all. The original question was: would the writers be surprised at the level of emotional attachment to Miranda? My answer was, "I really doubt it," because there is a whole path written into the game that basically plots out a certain type of powerful emotional attachment. That doesn't mean that there aren't other paths in the game, or other ways to roleplay/interpret what happens.

Modifié par flemm, 30 septembre 2011 - 07:50 .