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[Eyeshield21]

Ieldra2 wrote...

And here comes the rare moment where I disagree with you, jtav. Apart from other things, I like Miranda for her consequentialism, which I think is a perfectly valid philosophy, only dependent on the relative weight you give your goals and methods. I also like that she's engineered, signifying that humans can enhance themselves and take control of their evolution. IMO, her father actually did a good thing with the gifts he gave her, no matter that his intentions and later actions were anything but that.

I agree with this, but Miri's father is still a a-hole.
and if the pregnancy did happen, make it like in the epilouge(remember epilouge from DAO) and Medical science helped her have a child and leave it at that. But ONLY in the epilouge.

Modifié par Eyeshield21, 02 octobre 2011 - 09:23 .

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

And here comes the rare moment where I disagree with you, jtav. Apart from other things, I like Miranda for her consequentialism, which I think is a perfectly valid philosophy, only dependent on the relative weight you give your goals and methods. I also like that she's engineered, signifying that humans can enhance themselves and take control of their evolution. IMO, her father actually did a good thing with the gifts he gave her, no matter that his intentions and later actions were anything but that. I also think that the emotional abuse Miranda suffered as a child is mostly responsible for her self-esteem problems, rather than the fact she was engineered.

Consequentialism has its uses, but there's a fine line between being pragmatic and simply being expedient. Too much of the latter gives consequentialism its bad name.

[Ieldra]

Eyeshield21 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
And here comes the rare moment where I disagree with you, jtav. Apart from other things, I like Miranda for her consequentialism, which I think is a perfectly valid philosophy, only dependent on the relative weight you give your goals and methods. I also like that she's engineered, signifying that humans can enhance themselves and take control of their evolution. IMO, her father actually did a good thing with the gifts he gave her, no matter that his intentions and later actions were anything but that.

I agree with this, but Miri's father is still a a-hole.

Definitely. I don't want to whitewash him. It's quite likely he killed earlier daughters, he sent a merc squad after Oriana and the way he treated Miranda was abysmal. I just wanted to stress that engineering Miranda is nothing to revile him for.

[jtav]

Yep, folks, we are in fact different people. I suspect we'd disagree more if she were the protagonist, and I could be confident in a well-done, gradual conversion that doesn't involve replacing her entire personality and being all about Shepard. A Miranda who gave up killing people in cold blood should still be prickly and think in terms of the big picture.

[Eyeshield21]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Eyeshield21 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
And here comes the rare moment where I disagree with you, jtav. Apart from other things, I like Miranda for her consequentialism, which I think is a perfectly valid philosophy, only dependent on the relative weight you give your goals and methods. I also like that she's engineered, signifying that humans can enhance themselves and take control of their evolution. IMO, her father actually did a good thing with the gifts he gave her, no matter that his intentions and later actions were anything but that.

I agree with this, but Miri's father is still a a-hole.

Definitely. I don't want to whitewash him. It's quite likely he killed earlier daughters, he sent a merc squad after Oriana and the way he treated Miranda was abysmal. I just wanted to stress that engineering Miranda is nothing to revile him for.

I just thought of something, what if we see Miri clones side with Cerberus because Miri's father rejoined them cause of the reapers? Indoctrination maybe? He makes a deal with the reapers and cerberus just to take back Miri and Oriana?

Modifié par Eyeshield21, 02 octobre 2011 - 09:32 .

[Ieldra]

Eyeshield21 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Eyeshield21 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
And here comes the rare moment where I disagree with you, jtav. Apart from other things, I like Miranda for her consequentialism, which I think is a perfectly valid philosophy, only dependent on the relative weight you give your goals and methods. I also like that she's engineered, signifying that humans can enhance themselves and take control of their evolution. IMO, her father actually did a good thing with the gifts he gave her, no matter that his intentions and later actions were anything but that.

I agree with this, but Miri's father is still a a-hole.

Definitely. I don't want to whitewash him. It's quite likely he killed earlier daughters, he sent a merc squad after Oriana and the way he treated Miranda was abysmal. I just wanted to stress that engineering Miranda is nothing to revile him for.

I just thought of something, what if we see Miri clones side with Cerberus because Miri's father rejoined them cause of the reapers? Indoctrination maybe?

The idea has come up. There were speculations that those ninja-like enemies we've seen pictures of in the GameInformer article are Miranda clones. I don't think so. These clones would have to be created at least twenty years ago. As I said elsewhere, Miranda was genetically engineered, but not fast-grown and implanted with artificial memories like Grunt, which is likely beyond current human technology anyway (Okeer used Collector tech). 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 octobre 2011 - 09:34 .

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

Yep, folks, we are in fact different people. I suspect we'd disagree more if she were the protagonist, and I could be confident in a well-done, gradual conversion that doesn't involve replacing her entire personality and being all about Shepard. A Miranda who gave up killing people in cold blood should still be prickly and think in terms of the big picture.

I agree, that'd work rather well.

On another note, I just beat the Collector base and brought Miranda to the final battle. I never got the "it feels like a betrayal" line, probably because Samara was my other squadmate. So, no potentially screwy dialogue in my canon, which is nice enough, and I also got to see Miranda face down TIM.

[Ieldra]

Likely you didn't get the "betrayal" line because you didn't choose the line "this is an abomination" for Shepard.

Regarding Miranda's ethics, I still think her philosophy shouldn't rule out killing in cold blood if things are important enough. I'd rather change her dismissive attitude to leaving her own people behind to die as on Lazarus station. "Everyone but you is expendable" might be true, but it still doesn't mean that they should be expended quite as readily.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 02 octobre 2011 - 09:43 .

[jtav]

Much of what she advocates in game is not even immoral, even if it doesn't give one the warm fuzzies. Not going after the crew or sending an escort were matters of prudential judgment. If she sincerely believed the mission was threatened and therefore more lives was be lost, she has a duty to to speak up. Nice is not good.

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

Much of what she advocates in game is not even immoral, even if it doesn't give one the warm fuzzies. Not going after the crew or sending an escort were matters of prudential judgment. If she sincerely believed the mission was threatened and therefore more lives was be lost, she has a duty to to speak up. Nice is not good.

It's not immoral as such, but it's still a good thing she wasn't in command.

[jtav]

It does happen to work out, but I suspect a "real" SM would make depriving yourself of a soldier a much riskier prospect. Miranda is very risk-averse in these matters and should remain so.

[Ieldra]

Well, as for going after the crew, if you have a fully loyal squad Miranda doesn't object, and if you don't, her concern is perfectly valid even in hindsight, because nonloyal team members die more easily on the SM and unrecruited possible team members will indeed make the mission fail in certain circumstances.

About sending an escort, she correctly says we can't afford to go back. And we don't. If you send an escort you already concede her point.

I value Miranda's recommendations as a rule. People also make too much about her statement about the biotic specialist. All she really says is that you can select any biotic for that role and they will be able to get you through. Which is, well, true.

[jtav]

To be absolutely fair, a Miranda-led SM is looking at 3-4 deaths. So not great odds.

My concern with any sort of "redemption" for Miranda is twofold: that it will be accompanied by a general change in personality and that it will turn her into yet another Shepard satellite who is shown the light by our hero.

[CuseGirl]

jtav wrote...

To be absolutely fair, a Miranda-led SM is looking at 3-4 deaths. So not great odds.

My concern with any sort of "redemption" for Miranda is twofold: that it will be accompanied by a general change in personality and that it will turn her into yet another Shepard satellite who is shown the light by our hero.

well the story is about Shepard lollll.....

[Xilizhra]

About sending an escort, she correctly says we can't afford to go back. And we don't. If you send an escort you already concede her point.

Fair enough. I think that if you go back the way you came, or if the escort does, the Collector resistance would be minimal, and their most dangerous resource, Harbinger, will most assuredly be following Shepard.

My concern with any sort of "redemption" for Miranda is twofold: that it will be accompanied by a general change in personality and that it will turn her into yet another Shepard satellite who is shown the light by our hero.

Well, who else would have shown her the light? She doesn't seem to particularly like anyone else on the ship, and she shows definite signs of character development by the end.

Likely you didn't get the "betrayal" line because you didn't choose the line "this is an abomination" for Shepard.

True. I don't feel that it is an abomination, personally, although I respect Legion's point about self-determination. My only concern is giving Cerberus this much power, related to this specific subject. I roleplayed my Shepard as having spoken in vague moralistic platitudes so as to not give TIM any ideas by speaking of her real reasons.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, who else would have shown her the light?

I'd say Miranda doesn't need to see any light.

Ieldra2 wrote...
The idea has come up. There were speculations that those ninja-like enemies we've seen pictures of in the GameInformer article are Miranda clones. I don't think so. These clones would have to be created at least twenty years ago. As I said elsewhere, Miranda was genetically engineered, but not fast-grown and implanted with artificial memories like Grunt, which is likely beyond current human technology anyway (Okeer used Collector tech). 

According to Mass Effect: Invasion, Cerberus extablishing bases beyond the Omega 4-Relay is canon.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 octobre 2011 - 10:34 .

[Xilizhra]

I'd say Miranda doesn't need to see any light.

She's seen something, otherwise she wouldn't have resigned from Cerberus.

[jtav]

Nobody should have shown her the light, and Shepard's habit of persuading the universe to his liking is one reason I want him dead. I like Miranda as she is as a secondary character even as I might wish her morals were different were she real.

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

Nobody should have shown her the light, and Shepard's habit of persuading the universe to his liking is one reason I want him dead. I like Miranda as she is as a secondary character even as I might wish her morals were different were she real.

What would you call the main reason for her development?

[jtav]

Authorial fiat. Remember I;m one of the people who thinks that line was badly handled. As for resignation, remember how much she poured into Lazarus. Shepard is both her crowning achievement, the supposed hope of the galaxy, and the person who saved Oriana. We already know she will defy Cerberus for those she cares for. It's less development than revelation.

[MisterJB]

Not that we have actually ever seen Shepard molding Miranda or showying her the light. Her opinion on the Base and Cerberus by the end of the game can not only be completely pararell to Shepard's but it's also entirely independant from any dialogue choice taken earlier in the game and, unlike what happens with Garrus and Wrex, Shepard can question Miranda's loyalty to Cerberus and the actions of the Organization(to which Miranda has great justifications) but that's it. Shepard never counsels her to seek a new life or berates her for her choices.

[jtav]

MisterJB, my corn is more what may happen in the future. (Well, and *that* line from LOTSB). I was trying to explain why I regularly argue against my RL morals.

[Dr. Doctor]

flemm wrote...

Eyeshield21 wrote...
fair enough, I could live with that.(but then becomes a ****load more nicer to YOU in person, but then acts normally while other people are also in the room. probably won't happen, but just a thought.)

Initially nicer to Shepard is extremely likely, I think. Not sweet, necessarily, but they are allies now (+ romance if it is flagged).

I sort of see her having her usual "business first" mentality while on missions or working onboard the Normandy, with the whole relationship being relegated to when she and Shepard are off-duty. I could see her getting angry at Shepard in the event that he puts their relationship above completing the mission against the Reapers.

[jtav]

Oh, yes. She'd be livid. And my MaleShep would totally do it. Miranda's kind of it in the emotional support department. Anything for her.

You know, the increasing likelihood of MP makes now a good time to pacify the fanbase by announcing a returning squad member...

[naledgeborn]

jtav wrote...

As for resignation, remember how much she poured into Lazarus. Shepard is both her crowning achievement, the supposed hope of the galaxy, and the person who saved Oriana. We already know she will defy Cerberus for those she cares for. It's less development than revelation.

Heh. This should get archived for the writing team.