82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Golden Owl]

flemm wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...
I have a personal rule....'Never troll a Fan Thread'...sorry I would rather keep my personal views of Miranda seperate from the Miranda Fan Thread...I would be happy to discuss this elsewhere with you though...The question I posted in this thread is exactly the same as I have posted in the other threads related to the NPC's in question.

Ok, but ruthlessness vs. selfishness is an important distinction where Miranda is concerned. She is one, but not the other. You didn't specifically ask about the selfishness point in this thread, but since it's relevant to the discussion in question, I think it's fair that we address it.

Ah...but the point I was challenged on about the NPC's involved was in regards to ruthlessness...and so kept the question focussed purely on that point...anything else I said in that thread is irrelevant to the question I posted in this thread.

My apologies Flemm, but I will not discuss my views of Miranda's focus in her Fan Thread...please understand that I would feel disrespectful towards her fans to do so....another thread or PM is fine by me.

[Labrev]

I think that what Miranda should really be seen as is self-confident more so than ruthless. She's smart, seldom wrong, and knows it too. So when she thinks something, she's always completely sure that what she thinks is right. And rightly so, over the course of the mission she gave good advice: don't get the IFF too early, don't rush off for the crew if the team isn't ready.

At the same time, she's not completely ruthless because you do see where times where that hardline approach becomes a bit more difficult for her to take. She opposes the Collector Base because after seeing it, she is moved by what happened there. She is not War Hero/Ruthless/Sole Survivor Shepard that has seen those kinds of realities before, she lives in a somewhat clean and delusioned world under the comfort of her employer.

She also hesitates to kill Niket on the loyalty mission because that was her long time friend, someone who's face she can put to the name. Even if she does it, she clearly regrets it

So really, I think Miranda is a little more complex than that. It's easy to see her as cold and unfeeling, but I think the truth is that she's just a highly professional-minded individual and someone who rarely lets feelings get into her head.

[flemm]

Golden Owl wrote...

My apologies Flemm, but I will not discuss my views of Miranda's focus in her Fan Thread...

That's cool. My point wasn't that you should share your views. That's your call, obviously. My point was that our answers are naturally going to go beyond the precise language of your original question to address whatever we feel is relevant. Such as the ruthlessness vs. selfishness issue.

[Dr. Doctor]

I sum up Miranda's personality with the line "You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." She's willing to resort to extreme measures to acheive her goals, but she's willing to exhaust her other options first.

Thessia

 Miranda: Any progress on recruiting Dr. Thanoptis?

Shepard: Considering that our last two meetings ended with the use of high explosives, she was less than thrilled to see me.

Miranda: So the only non-Cerberus asset that we know of who has worked with the Indoctrination process won't talk to us. Lovely.

Shepard: I could just break down the door, knock her out and take her back to the ship.

Miranda: Oh yes, because that would definetly engender her to our cause. 

Shepard: I'm open to other options.

Moments later

Miranda: Dr. Thanoptis?

Rana: Yes? (notices Shepard) You-you're with him? What do you want? I'm not doing anything wrong, I work in a lab at the University!

Miranda: Doctor, contrary to what my associate's relationship with you might be, I'm here to offer you a job.

Rana: What sort of job?

Miranda: We could use someone with your experise to help us with our research into Indoctrin- (Rana bolts from her seat and starts to sprint down the hall)  Bloody hell why do they always run? (draws pistol and fires a concussive shot, knocking the scientist to the ground)

Rana: You shot me!

Miranda: And I am deeply sorry, but like it or not we need your help.

Rana: And if I refuse?

Miranda: Well then, I assume the Commander and I can leave you in the usual fashion.

[whywhywhywhy]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

I think that what Miranda should really be seen as is self-confident more so than ruthless. She's smart, seldom wrong, and knows it too. So when she thinks something, she's always completely sure that what she thinks is right. And rightly so, over the course of the mission she gave good advice: don't get the IFF too early, don't rush off for the crew if the team isn't ready.

At the same time, she's not completely ruthless because you do see where times where that hardline approach becomes a bit more difficult for her to take. She opposes the Collector Base because after seeing it, she is moved by what happened there. She is not War Hero/Ruthless/Sole Survivor Shepard that has seen those kinds of realities before, she lives in a somewhat clean and delusioned world under the comfort of her employer.

She also hesitates to kill Niket on the loyalty mission because that was her long time friend, someone who's face she can put to the name. Even if she does it, she clearly regrets it

So really, I think Miranda is a little more complex than that. It's easy to see her as cold and unfeeling, but I think the truth is that she's just a highly professional-minded individual and someone who rarely lets feelings get into her head.

I agree with you completely.  I don't get ruthless or ice Queen from her,  I think she's perfectly implemented character but often misinterpreted.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, who else would have shown her the light?

I'd say Miranda doesn't need to see any light.

Definitely. Miranda doesn't need any kind of personal redemption. From what we get of her, her vision of human advancement is very much OK and her pragmatism is very much appreciated. As I see it, if she won't be working with Cerberus any more in ME3, that has more to do with being shown a picture of TIM she doesn't like than with any change in her personal ethics.  

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The idea has come up. There were speculations that those ninja-like enemies we've seen pictures of in the GameInformer article are Miranda clones. I don't think so. These clones would have to be created at least twenty years ago. As I said elsewhere, Miranda was genetically engineered, but not fast-grown and implanted with artificial memories like Grunt, which is likely beyond current human technology anyway (Okeer used Collector tech). 

According to Mass Effect: Invasion, Cerberus extablishing bases beyond the Omega 4-Relay is canon.

Yes. Which means that the theoretical possibility exists that Miranda's father could've used Collector technology, However, all other evidence points elsewhere - Miranda appears to have a real personal history. Apart from that, the mental imprinting has limits, as Grunt clearly shows. You can't imprint experience. There could be fast-grown Miranda clones in ME3, but if there are, it's far more likely Cerberus grew them.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2011 - 09:09 .

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
I sort of see her having her usual "business first" mentality while on missions or working onboard the Normandy, with the whole relationship being relegated to when she and Shepard are off-duty. I could see her getting angry at Shepard in the event that he puts their relationship above completing the mission against the Reapers.

Definitely, In my personal canon, Miranda extracts a promise from him that he won't sacrifice the mission for her. It's her main concern about entering a relationship with him at that time.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2011 - 06:20 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
As for her resignation, it's actually fairly well foreshadowed. The opening scene of the game shows us Miranda being told how important Shepard is. The Lazarus Project was "Miranda's baby." And we are shown that Miranda values Jacob above Cerberus regulations. She is all about the mission--except when she asks you to help with Oriana. Her sister is important enough that she asks you to risk your life over it. Shepard refuses by saying "You know what's at stake on this mission, Miranda. We can't afford delays for personal matters." That's normally her line. Miranda's loyalty to her friends and loved ones is nearly absolute. If Miranda is loyal, Sgepard is part of that group. TIM's final order is a personal and professional betrayal. Professional because TIM is asking her to destroy the very man he order her to spend two years to save. And it's personal because he's asking her to turn her back on a friend. And that Miranda will not do.

So, far from coming from nowhere, the resignation is something that *must* happen if Miranda's loyal there.

I agree with you if you approach it from that angle. Only I fear the writers had something else in mind.

@flemm:
I'm in the same boat as jtav. I can see her resignation as such as justified, just not if it's over the Collector base. I think she'd recommend to keep it for study. And no, you'll never hear me support the "betrayal" line. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2011 - 06:29 .

[diamondedge]

As for resignation, remember how much she poured into Lazarus. Shepard is both her crowning achievement, the supposed hope of the galaxy,

It was awesome.

The whole point of getting close to Miranda is making her realize she isn't some tool to be used for Cerberus whenever TIM wishes, regardless of how she might feel ("I gave you an order, Miranda"). Being with Shepard's crew opened her eyes - there is always a choice and she doesn't have to be an instrument. That's what really matters. "How we feel," as Shepard may choose to tell her. She knows Shepard would help her protect those she geniuelly cares for. She does not need Cerberus anymore.

If she were to finaly accept her history - and herslef as a whole - getting out from Cerberus is almost a necessary development.

Modifié par diamondedge, 03 octobre 2011 - 06:31 .

[Ieldra]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
She also hesitates to kill Niket on the loyalty mission because that was her long time friend, someone who's face she can put to the name. Even if she does it, she clearly regrets it

Actually no, she doesn't hesitate. If you don't use the Paragon interrupt, the scene proceeds fluidly to Miranda shooting him. She even is somewhat dismissive about it ("I'll miss you... *shoots*.....figuratively speaking"). Though I admit I find that line a little jarring. I think having to shoot a lifelong friend would affect her more. That she regrets it is a matter of interpretation. You can take her at her word when she says she's glad she could take him out herself. Possibly she feels she's the only one who has a right to.

So really, I think Miranda is a little more complex than that. It's easy to see her as cold and unfeeling, but I think the truth is that she's just a highly professional-minded individual and someone who rarely lets feelings get into her head.

And that's actually all we've been saying. "Ruthless" just means that she'll do what's needed to complete her mission, however unpleasant it may be. The difference between TIM and her is that TIM is blithly disregarding of lives spent to further his cause, while Miranda is loyal to "her" people and only sacrifices them if there's no other way to complete the mission.

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

I sum up Miranda's personality with the line "You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." She's willing to resort to extreme measures to acheive her goals, but she's willing to exhaust her other options first.

Thessia

 Miranda: Any progress on recruiting Dr. Thanoptis?

Shepard: Considering that our last two meetings ended with the use of high explosives, she was less than thrilled to see me.

Miranda: So the only non-Cerberus asset that we know of who has worked with the Indoctrination process won't talk to us. Lovely.

Shepard: I could just break down the door, knock her out and take her back to the ship.

Miranda: Oh yes, because that would definetly engender her to our cause. 

Shepard: I'm open to other options.

Moments later

Miranda: Dr. Thanoptis?

Rana: Yes? (notices Shepard) You-you're with him? What do you want? I'm not doing anything wrong, I work in a lab at the University!

Miranda: Doctor, contrary to what my associate's relationship with you might be, I'm here to offer you a job.

Rana: What sort of job?

Miranda: We could use someone with your experise to help us with our research into Indoctrin- (Rana bolts from her seat and starts to sprint down the hall)  Bloody hell why do they always run? (draws pistol and fires a concussive shot, knocking the scientist to the ground)

Rana: You shot me!

Miranda: And I am deeply sorry, but like it or not we need your help.

Rana: And if I refuse?

Miranda: Well then, I assume the Commander and I can leave you in the usual fashion.

Perfect, Dr. Doctor. You hit Miranda, 100% on the spot.

[nitefyre410]

Golden Owl wrote...

Hello Miranda fans....Someone just challenged me on another thread in regards to 'Ruthlessness'...I have decided to examine it further in regards to the NPC's involved....So question for you: "Why in your perceptions is Miranda not ruthless?....Examples included please?"

 


Some of the same reason that  my is  not the  same with Samara honestly.  Being Ruthless is not a  bad quality when tempered properly and with restraint.    Yet I don't think that she is  ruthless by not nature or by not being able to care -  I think its more of a honed skilled built over time and what has happened to her with her father and working with  and in Cerberus. Its not for the faint of heart - you have to a certian coldness about the same with a Justicar .

[JosephDucreux]

 Actually, the way Miranda acted at the Collector Base is completely in character for her. It's just that her line was completely 'huh, what'd she mean by that?' Miranda has always been slightly risk averse, and she wouldn't take any unnecessary risks. Keeping the Collector Base is a very, very big risk, especially given that you're playing with the stuff that makes up the bunch of b**tards that's trying to eradicate the entire universe. Miranda has already seen the aftermath of the Illusive Man's gambles (Teltin, Akuze, etc.), and needless to say, she knows that TIM's gambles generally end very badly. And how can anyone predict if keeping the base and using its tech would not backfire on the rest of the galaxy? it is, after all, Reaper tech, and who are the main subjects at the wrong end of that tech? That's right, the Reapers themselves. You know, the SOBs who invented that tech in the first place. So the Collector Base is pretty much the universe's largest and most risky gamble ever. And to top it all off, it's not even a necessary risk, given that you CAN destroy the Reapers without their tech, but it's just pretty f**king hard.

Also, don't forget that Miranda had to make a snap judgement of whether or not to destroy the base. While you guys have all the time in the world to dissect, debate, and argue for or against keeping the CB, do remember that Miranda doesn't have that luxury. I frequently have to make snap decisions too in both my current line of duty and in my former service, and I don't think, rationalize, and go through a whole battery of calculations about whether I should pick option A or B. I just go with what feels right and pray to God I made the best possible call. It's hard to understand for many people, but in some situations, you don't rationalize, you just do what feels like the best possible option to you. That was the situation Miranda found herself in.

To keep this on topic, here's a Miri pic.

Modifié par JosephDucreux, 03 octobre 2011 - 10:24 .

[Ieldra]

@JosephDucreux:
Only that Miranda doesn't see Cerberus as an organization whose gambles always fail. Else she wouldn't defend it so passionately in the romance conversation. And in fact, they don't always fail: they brought Shepard back, they rebuilt the Normandy bigger and better, the list goes on but these are the most prominent. You create motivations for Miranda's actions out of *your* reasoning, not hers.

Also your risk calculation is one-sided. Pit the risk that keeping the base backfires not against nothing, but against destroying information that might be decisive for the war. Keeping it, the worst case is that the Reapers add Cerberus to their already invincible army. Whatever Cerberus may add, it's almost certainly peanuts compared to what the Reapers already have. Destroying it, the worst case is that you lose the war by having destroyed information that would've let you win. Not only would you lose the war, but it would be your own damn fault. So no, the risk calculation doesn't favor destroying the base.

As for the "snap judgment", I'd believe that if she came to doubt it later. But she doesn't. Of course you can speculate that once made, she defends her decision, but I think she's more honest with herself than that.

[CounterSteak21]

 I would really like for her to be a permanent squadmate, or at least if she's not, she'll have a huge role in ME3. She used to be TIM's right hand woman, and the fact that now Cerberus is the enemy, will make it very interesting to see her storyline.
Somehow everytime I try to imagine the romance my mind always comes back to the infertile statement. I think it'll be interesting if there's some kind of follow-up storyline to her condition, and the romance with Shepard might revolve around that? I think it'll be interesting.

[xelander]

@JosephDucreux
That pic.... mmmmmmmhhhmmmm!!
Also, you are so very right about snap decisions and gut feelings, especially if the individual making them has a lot of life experience and high self-awareness (which Miranda certainly does). Sometimes your gut feeling ends up being the most solid reason for a decision, even if you have a lot of other logical arguments.

@Ieldra

And I could argue that your statement that the risk calculation doesn't favor destruction of the base is *your* reasoning, which isn't the only one. There are certainly strong pros and cons for either decision. It's still a risk evaluation, which is always subject to interpretation, which is dependent upon the available information (very little in this case) and the personality/experience of the one making it. For me, it's a black-and-white call in a grey situation. Only time will tell which was the right one.

BTW, what were her exact words on the matter(for either decision) after the SM (when you talk to her in her cabin)? Ican't seem to find the right save right now.

[Ieldra]

xelander wrote...
And I could argue that your statement that the risk calculation doesn't favor destruction of the base is *your* reasoning, which isn't the only one. There are certainly strong pros and cons for either decision. It's still a risk evaluation, which is always subject to interpretation, which is dependent upon the available information (very little in this case) and the personality/experience of the one making it. For me, it's a black-and-white call in a grey situation. Only time will tell which was the right one.

You may weigh the risks differently than I do, and Miranda may weigh them differently from anything posted here. The important thing is that Miranda wouldn't reduce this grey situation into a black and white one. She'd keep the risks and the benefits in mind. Though I think it would've been more in-character had she recommended to keep the base, my main beef has always been with her "justification" for her recommendation rather than the recommendation to destroy the base itself.

Though really, I can't see how anyone can argue that an indoctrinated Cerberus is such a big deal that it outweighs the risk of destroying information that may decide the war. Actually, I can't see any pragmatic reasoning for destroying the base that doesn't presuppose as a fact that such information does not exist. But that's another debate.

BTW, what were her exact words on the matter(for either decision) after the SM (when you talk to her in her cabin)? Ican't seem to find the right save right now.

If you keep the base: "Before we started this mission, I never would've questioned our goals. I just hope we made the right decision. I hope whatever Cerberus finds at that base is worth it."

I don't have a save where the base was destroyed, but it's very similar to: "We made the right decision. That base had to be destroyed".

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2011 - 11:55 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
There could be fast-grown Miranda clones in ME3, but if there are, it's far more likely Cerberus grew them.

Yes, that's basically my train of thought on the subject: Shepard and/or Miranda clones using some amalgam of Collector tech, Lazarus data, and the techniques that were used to create Miranda.

Could be. I'm not sure how excited I would be about the whole clone troopers idea, but it's a pretty common type of twist in this type of story, so it's fairly plausible.

@Joseph, sweet pic.

Modifié par flemm, 03 octobre 2011 - 11:53 .

[Labrev]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...
She also hesitates to kill Niket on the loyalty mission because that was her long time friend, someone who's face she can put to the name. Even if she does it, she clearly regrets it

Actually no, she doesn't hesitate. If you don't use the Paragon interrupt, the scene proceeds fluidly to Miranda shooting him. She even is somewhat dismissive about it ("I'll miss you... *shoots*.....figuratively speaking"). Though I admit I find that line a little jarring. I think having to shoot a lifelong friend would affect her more. That she regrets it is a matter of interpretation. You can take her at her word when she says she's glad she could take him out herself. Possibly she feels she's the only one who has a right to.

I dunno. I think that she said "I didn't want it to end this way... I'm going to miss you" was basically hesitation on her part. She knew it had to be done, but didn't gun him down that quickly.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

 I agree with you if you approach it from that angle. Only I fear the writers had something else in mind.

@flemm:
I'm in the same boat as jtav. I can see her resignation as such as justified, just not if it's over the Collector base. I think she'd recommend to keep it for study. And no, you'll never hear me support the "betrayal" line. 

Quite. But as long as I can read things that way, I will. And any Shepards of mine that have any characterization behind them keep the base, so it's a bit of a moot point. I only want her to leave Cerberus so she can take it over later.

Modifié par jtav, 03 octobre 2011 - 01:03 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Though I think it would've been more in-character had she recommended to keep the base, my main beef has always been with her "justification" for her recommendation rather than the recommendation to destroy the base itself.

Right, I follow that. On the one hand, you feel strongly that keeping the base is the more logical/better choice from a pragmatic standpoint, so you would prefer that Miranda see it that way. However, more than anything, you would prefer that Miranda base her decision on a sound reasoning, rather than a whim.

We don't have that reasoning. However, it strikes me as rather paranoid to assume it isn't there and that, moreover, it signals some sort of primal shift in Miranda's character where she will be dominated by irrationality from this point forward.

A couple of more reasons why I think that is an over-reaction:

1) The dialogue of all the characters regarding the CB is pretty erratic. Most of them change their minds afterward if you destroy the base, etc. Some of the pragmatic-seeming opinions aren't even all that accurate or perceptive (such as Legion's). In any event, I see no reason to think that the tone of these particular lines is really going to chart the course for future characterisation.

2) Miranda is actually more consistent than most: she has a similar opinion no matter what you do (albeit phrased differently). So, in that sense, there is more consistency with her than the others, which I would take as a positive sign. The key thing here, I believe, where Miranda's future is concerned, is her allegiance to Cerberus/TIM, not a shift to irrationality in her thought-process.

In short, I understand your concerns, but I think they are exaggerated.

Modifié par flemm, 03 octobre 2011 - 01:36 .

[jtav]

It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you:P

But seriously, it's that line combined with the LOTSB dossier combined with Liara's comments that concerns me. They do seem to be pointing in the same directiom: a more traditional heroine.

[raziel1980]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

I sum up Miranda's personality with the line "You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." She's willing to resort to extreme measures to acheive her goals, but she's willing to exhaust her other options first.

Thessia

 Miranda: Any progress on recruiting Dr. Thanoptis?

Shepard: Considering that our last two meetings ended with the use of high explosives, she was less than thrilled to see me.

Miranda: So the only non-Cerberus asset that we know of who has worked with the Indoctrination process won't talk to us. Lovely.

Shepard: I could just break down the door, knock her out and take her back to the ship.

Miranda: Oh yes, because that would definetly engender her to our cause. 

Shepard: I'm open to other options.

Moments later

Miranda: Dr. Thanoptis?

Rana: Yes? (notices Shepard) You-you're with him? What do you want? I'm not doing anything wrong, I work in a lab at the University!

Miranda: Doctor, contrary to what my associate's relationship with you might be, I'm here to offer you a job.

Rana: What sort of job?

Miranda: We could use someone with your experise to help us with our research into Indoctrin- (Rana bolts from her seat and starts to sprint down the hall)  Bloody hell why do they always run? (draws pistol and fires a concussive shot, knocking the scientist to the ground)

Rana: You shot me!

Miranda: And I am deeply sorry, but like it or not we need your help.

Rana: And if I refuse?

Miranda: Well then, I assume the Commander and I can leave you in the usual fashion.

*swears if this scene were to ever play out he would fall on the flor LHAO....*