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[flemm]

jtav wrote...

It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you:P

But seriously, it's that line combined with the LOTSB dossier combined with Liara's comments that concerns me. They do seem to be pointing in the same directiom: a more traditional heroine.

Well, "paranoid" was hyperbole. Like I say, I really do understand the concern. But I don't feel it as a huge concern the way some do.

Re: LotSB dossier, I think most of that stuff could actually go either way, i.e. more traditional, or less so. The infertility thing is really suspicious, to the point that I tend to believe there is some major twist coming there.

Modifié par flemm, 03 octobre 2011 - 01:50 .

[JosephDucreux]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@JosephDucreux:
Only that Miranda doesn't see Cerberus as an organization whose gambles always fail. Else she wouldn't defend it so passionately in the romance conversation. And in fact, they don't always fail: they brought Shepard back, they rebuilt the Normandy bigger and better, the list goes on but these are the most prominent. You create motivations for Miranda's actions out of *your* reasoning, not hers.

Also your risk calculation is one-sided. Pit the risk that keeping the base backfires not against nothing, but against destroying information that might be decisive for the war. Keeping it, the worst case is that the Reapers add Cerberus to their already invincible army. Whatever Cerberus may add, it's almost certainly peanuts compared to what the Reapers already have. Destroying it, the worst case is that you lose the war by having destroyed information that would've let you win. Not only would you lose the war, but it would be your own damn fault. So no, the risk calculation doesn't favor destroying the base.

As for the "snap judgment", I'd believe that if she came to doubt it later. But she doesn't. Of course you can speculate that once made, she defends her decision, but I think she's more honest with herself than that.

Problem with your reasoning is that all projects relating and pertaining to the Reapers have all backfired horribly. The derelict Reaper and Arrival, among many other projects, pretty much constitutes a 100% failure rate when it comes to studying/using their technology. Miranda knows that all too well, and she's too much of a realist to believe that the CB will go any different even with 20 light years of precautions.

Also, the worst case would not be that you've wiped out one of your few avenues (don't forget, the derelict Reaper was knocked out by a piece of 37 million year old tech that is pretty much what the galaxy is currently using in canonverse) of destroying the Reapers, it would be whatever that you saved in the base turns against you and the entire universe and kills you. Irony, innit? You save the Reaper and it serves you, but eventually turns against you. In case you didn't notice, TIM was talking about making a few Reapers of his own (He wanted to save the base in its entirety. Doesn't take a huge mental leap to realize that he wants to build reapers. One of the dialog options reveals that too.) If you couldn't even save yourself from being indoctrinated by a derelict reaper, you probably don't have a chance in hell of mastering whatever technology you may salvage. Also, Miranda knows this very well.

After all, sed modo est scire ex praeteritis melior. (The only way to improve is to learn from the past)

Edit: FFFFF-...cast induced typos.

Modifié par JosephDucreux, 03 octobre 2011 - 02:08 .

[jtav]

Much of the concern comes from my own history. Ieldra's mentioned I read genre romance. When I was a kid, the following was a fairly common type of heroine: a woman who is superficially happy in her career but really wants marriage, children, and white picket fences. The HEA (happily ever after) often featured her realizing her high-powered career was a substitute for the life she really wanted and moving/staying in a small town to be with the hero. She was not infrequently infertile, only for children to show up in the epilogue.

Or hell, any female character who receives a personality transplant along with her change in loyalty/

[JosephDucreux]

jtav wrote...

a more traditional heroine.

And what's wrong with that? If it worked over the last century, leave it alone. It obviously works, and works well. Also, for Miranda's character to stagnate at just being a morally ambiguous anti-heronie is to effectively kill her character.

[flemm]

JosephDucreux wrote...
 Also, for Miranda's character to stagnate at just being a morally ambiguous anti-heronie is to effectively kill her character.

This right here is why the whole thing just doesn't bother me. I like dynamic characters that evolve and change. Miranda is more interesting to me because there is a lot of ambiguity there and potential for growth. I'm not sure how much of that potential will be realized in ME3, and I'm not saying that I would necessarily be happy with any change or every change.

But growth and change are good. Those are the great characters imo, at least the ones that I like the most.

Modifié par flemm, 03 octobre 2011 - 02:17 .

[Xilizhra]

And what's wrong with that? If it worked over the last century, leave it alone. It obviously works, and works well. Also, for Miranda's character to stagnate at just being a morally ambiguous anti-heronie is to effectively kill her character.

Because the last century, in large part, totally sucked at gender relations. I'm not afraid of Miranda making that transition, myself, but it would be a rather terrible one.

Also, if Cerberus falls to the Reapers, the entire suicide mission was pointless. If the base is destroyed, then no matter what happens, the Reapers lose their reproduction facility and have to start from scratch. It might disrupt their harvesting efforts, or at least some aspect of their plan. I think it's worth a shot, if nothing else.

[jtav]

What Xil said, except I am afraid they'd make that transition. Di you know how hard I have to look to find female heroes who are allowed to be as tough, capable, and ruthless as Miranda is? And they get to be unabashedly female too? And get the guy? Without having to apologize for not being nice? She's my own slice of fictional character heaven?

[Xilizhra]

Well, there's Liara, to an extent. Her hunting and eventually becoming the Shadow Broker isn't at all hindered by her romance to Shepard. I'd also, personally, say she counts as unabashedly female too, though I'm not totally sure what that means.

[flemm]

Well, like I say, I probably wouldn't be cool with just any change. But some of those things you list strike me as really unlikely to change: tough, capable, feminine, especially.

If anything, she may very well become more confident and less angsty in ME3. At least I think that's very plausible. It might be accompanied by a new source of conflict coming to the fore, namely losing her old, secure place in the world. But that I'm 100% cool with.

Degree of ruthlessness is up in the air, I would say. As to getting the guy... well, she will in most of my playthroughs.

I do what I can

Modifié par flemm, 03 octobre 2011 - 03:27 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Though I think it would've been more in-character had she recommended to keep the base, my main beef has always been with her "justification" for her recommendation rather than the recommendation to destroy the base itself.

Right, I follow that. On the one hand, you feel strongly that keeping the base is the more logical/better choice from a pragmatic standpoint, so you would prefer that Miranda see it that way. However, more than anything, you would prefer that Miranda base her decision on a sound reasoning, rather than a whim.

We don't have that reasoning. However, it strikes me as rather paranoid to assume it isn't there and that, moreover, it signals some sort of primal shift in Miranda's character where she will be dominated by irrationality from this point forward.

A couple of more reasons why I think that is an over-reaction:

1) The dialogue of all the characters regarding the CB is pretty erratic. Most of them change their minds afterward if you destroy the base, etc. Some of the pragmatic-seeming opinions aren't even all that accurate or perceptive (such as Legion's). In any event, I see no reason to think that the tone of these particular lines is really going to chart the course for future characterisation.

2) Miranda is actually more consistent than most: she has a similar opinion no matter what you do (albeit phrased differently). So, in that sense, there is more consistency with her than the others, which I would take as a positive sign. The key thing here, I believe, where Miranda's future is concerned, is her allegiance to Cerberus/TIM, not a shift to irrationality in her thought-process.

In short, I understand your concerns, but I think they are exaggerated.

I will admit that they possibly are. If I voice my opinions about this strongly, it's in part to make the writers aware of it so that such a thing doesn't happen again *accidentally*. If they want Miranda to make more decisions based on sentimentality, then I can do nothing about it anyway. But if the result is the important thing, then the comments made by me, jtav and others may have helped to make them aware of possible pitfalls.

It might also have helped to make them aware that if Miranda isn't strongly pragmatic in ME3, there won't be an LI fit for Renegade maleSheps.

And last but not least there is a general tendency in fiction to make the women the empathic characters with a high social awareness and intuition-driven morality, as in The Chick trope. I specifically like that Miranda breaks that pattern and would hate to see that change. That's why I often speak of the danger of Chickification. 

[Ieldra]

JosephDucreux wrote...
Also, the worst case would not be that you've wiped out one of your few avenues (don't forget, the derelict Reaper was knocked out by a piece of 37 million year old tech that is pretty much what the galaxy is currently using in canonverse) of destroying the Reapers, it would be whatever that you saved in the base turns against you and the entire universe and kills you. Irony, innit? You save the Reaper and it serves you, but eventually turns against you. In case you didn't notice, TIM was talking about making a few Reapers of his own (He wanted to save the base in its entirety. Doesn't take a huge mental leap to realize that he wants to build reapers. One of the dialog options reveals that too.) If you couldn't even save yourself from being indoctrinated by a derelict reaper, you probably don't have a chance in hell of mastering whatever technology you may salvage. Also, Miranda knows this very well.

TIM never mentions building Reapers. It's Shepard who does if you select a certain option. In fact, I'd think that making Reapers makes no sense, given that ONE Reaper needs millions of individuals to be created. At least at the time it appears that way.

As for the worst case scenario, OK; then the worst case is that we are all killed either with or without the intact base. Regarding the indoctrination, it's pretty clear that Dr.Chandana suffered from the misplaced assumption that a dead Reaper couldn't indoctrinate any more. Well, now we know it can. And if *I* can come up with a setup to study Reaper technology with a minimized risk, then Miranda can, too. Every failed experiment tells us something new. As you say...

After all, sed modo est scire ex praeteritis melior. (The only way to improve is to learn from the past)

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
If I voice my opinions about this strongly, it's in part to make the writers aware of it so that such a thing doesn't happen again *accidentally*.

Yes, I understand that your arguments on this point are intended to be pre-emptive, and that this accounts for their intensity.

One thing's for certain... If they haven't heard you, they're not listening

On the precise point of whether or not Miranda will have a more intuitive approach to morality in ME3... Well, I guess there's some room for doubt. I'm more intrigued on this point than apprehensive. But I guess it could go either way. 

Modifié par flemm, 03 octobre 2011 - 08:37 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
What Xil said, except I am afraid they'd make that transition. Di you know how hard I have to look to find female heroes who are allowed to be as tough, capable, and ruthless as Miranda is? And they get to be unabashedly female too? And get the guy? Without having to apologize for not being nice? She's my own slice of fictional character heaven?

Exactly that. ME2's Miranda could have been made to my specifications, so perfectly does she fit the type of (female) character I always wanted to see, interact with and/or play, even more so in an epic Sci-Fi story. A transition to that traditional type would kill her for me.

(ME2 Liara doesn't count. She hasn't got the transhumanism aspect built in, and anyway I can't get over the implausibility of interspecies sex)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2011 - 08:43 .

[jtav]

It's also that Miranda is my self-insert. I've been very vocal in my hatred of Shep, so my vicarious living is done through her instead. And it's a lot of fun to do that right now.

[Ieldra]

I think we need a picture. I'm too tired to go through my collection, so I'll just post this old favorite again:

If I may be excused....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2011 - 08:53 .

[Xilizhra]

Miranda, to me, is a perfect example of misapplied transhumanism; simply making humans more physically capable (I find Miranda's claims of superior intelligence to be somewhat lacking at times; she's far from stupid, but doesn't display much in the way of genius, at least compared to the likes of Liara and Mordin) without changing the underlying mindset, which could well just lead to bigger problems. It can be useful, but I don't think it's where our efforts should be concentrated.
I'd actually look to asari as a major inspiration for what we should try to become, in many ways, and that Liara represents many of those. Obviously they're culturally flawed as well, but even Miranda herself does admire them.

[jtav]

Heh. I'm a LONG way off from this, but I presume you'll want to see that in black?

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

If I may be excused....

I think it's ok for you to show an emotional side...

As long as it doesn't affect your decisions as a ruthless, pragmatic BSN forum operative...

Modifié par flemm, 03 octobre 2011 - 08:59 .

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
Miranda, to me, is a perfect example of misapplied transhumanism

No she's a perfect example of correct application, genetically at least. Trying to engineer personality traits like morality and social awareness, assuming it can be done, is much more dangerous and prone to ideology-driven misapplication. That is actually a line I would strongly discourage crossing as it would come close to engineering whatever freedom of choice we have away. Transhumanism is a movement that promotes enhancement of individual capabilities while leaving the choices that make up our human nature intact. Anything more is a decision you should make only for yourself, never for your children. Being stronger, smarter, and healthier can reasonably be expected to be desirable for anyone. Higher or lower empathy (as an example) not so much.  

@flemm:
:lol:

@jtav:
Not getting you.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2011 - 09:11 .

[jtav]

Remember, I have access to her black outfit as soon as Freedom's Progress. I assumed you'd want that LM shot in it. And incidentally the ass shot once you get the Normandy is much less obnoxious.

[Xilizhra]

Being stronger, smarter, and healthier can reasonably be expected to be desirable for anyone.

Miranda seems to be, at the least, dubious about it. And while the execution of this particular project may have worked (more or less, given the fact that she's infertile and that her father had to kill several others before coming up with one success story, so it may have been as trial-and-error as Okeer's project to make Grunt), it's highly concerning in societal terms. I'd only want to let this sort of thing become widespread when it's not so starkly available to only the most moneyed and powerful people.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda, to me, is a perfect example of misapplied transhumanism

Where it gets a little hazy is Miranda's father's motives and methods. Which is what Xilizhra is apparently referring to (edit: somewhat 'd on this point by Xilizhra).

This is not Miranda's responsibility, of course. She just has to live with it. However, Miranda's judgment/sense of ethics/morality, etc. seem to be intact. Which doesn't mean that all her decisions are the right ones, but that part of who she is doesn't seem to have been affected by the engineering. So the basic goal seems to have been more or less laudable, though the motive and methods remain in question/are highly dubious.

Modifié par flemm, 03 octobre 2011 - 09:19 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Remember, I have access to her black outfit as soon as Freedom's Progress. I assumed you'd want that LM shot in it. And incidentally the ass shot once you get the Normandy is much less obnoxious.

Yep, I'd like that picture.

Xilizhra wrote....
I'd only want to let this sort of thing become widespread when it's not
so starkly available to only the most moneyed and powerful people.

Indeed. That's one primary concern and many transhumanists are aware of it (others don't care). But it has to start somewhere.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2011 - 09:16 .

[Xilizhra]

Indeed. That's one primary concern and many transhumanists are aware of it (others don't care). But it has to start somewhere.

The circumstances surrounding Miranda's creation were heavily tainted. I'd rather look to the asari as a sign of our aspirations, personally, so I don't think Liara is inferior in that regard to Miranda.

[Ieldra]

[quote]flemm wrote...
Where it gets a little hazy is Miranda's father's motives and methods.[/quote]
As I've said: he did one good thing (among other bad ones) for all the wrong reasons. Still doesn't make it bad.[/quote]