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[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
As I've said: he did one good thing (among other bad ones) for all the wrong reasons. Still doesn't make it bad.

Hmmmm... not sure what to think here, right off the bat. I think I'm with Shepard: Miranda gets the credit for making it a good thing. Might very well have been bad, otherwise.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Indeed. That's one primary concern and many transhumanists are aware of it (others don't care). But it has to start somewhere.

The circumstances surrounding Miranda's creation were heavily tainted. I'd rather look to the asari as a sign of our aspirations, personally, so I don't think Liara is inferior in that regard to Miranda.

Is Liara stronger, smarter and healthier than other asari? Can she be expected to live 1500 years? You know, transhumanism is exactly about that sort of thing, so yes, Liara is inferior in that aspect as a representative of her species. And while yes, living as long as the asari and acquiring natural biotics is certainly a worthwhile goal for humans, as long as there is no evidence that the asari engineered themselves to get where they are now, it doesn't count as an achievement for them. 


   

[jtav]

I'd say he did a bad thing, but it has more to do with Miranda's conception. Miranda is her own person, and shouldn't be judged by her father. And she does have considerable virtue and treats her "child" Shepard far better than her father ever treated her.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As I've said: he did one good thing (among other bad ones) for all the wrong reasons. Still doesn't make it bad.

Hmmmm... not sure what to think here, right off the bat. I think I'm with Shepard: Miranda gets the credit for making it a good thing. Might very well have been bad, otherwise.

Incorrect. The gifts he gave Miranda were always a good thing (as I said, they can reasonably be expected to be desirable and do no harm). What Miranda does with them does not validate or invalidate them, since Miranda's father cannot be held responsible for what she does with them. If he could be held responsible, then Miranda would be right in her fear that all her achievements are not hers but his.

[Xilizhra]

Is Liara stronger, smarter and healthier than other asari?

Well, let's see. Biotically, she can keep up with a justicar, power-draining sex vampire, and torturously conditioned supersoldier prototype, and has been known to singlehandedly fight off groups of raiders who attacked her archaeological sites. She's immune to the lack of focus that hits most asari maidens, and did most of the work in tracking down the very well hidden Shadow Broker in two years, not to mention her getting a doctorate by what seems to the equivalent of age 24 or so, if that. Health, I admit, has never been brought up.

Can she be expected to live 1500 years?

I don't know, but I wouldn't write it out as a possibility.

And while yes, living as long as the asari and acquiring natural biotics is certainly a worthwhile goal for humans, as long as there is no evidence that the asari engineered themselves to get where they are now, it doesn't count as an achievement for them.

I was referring to cultural aspirations.

[flemm]

The more I think about it, the more I really want Miranda to be involved in the follow-up to the Lazarus project in ME3... Cerberus seems like it would logically be the default Miranda-related plot, but the Lazarus thing is almost more interesting, really, in certain respects.

It's partly on this point that the infertility thing strikes me as so... suspicious. Not necessarily in a bad way. But some Lazarus tie-in strikes me as possible. Since, in a sense, Shepard is Miranda's creation, at least this version of him.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Incorrect. The gifts he gave Miranda were always a good thing (as I said, they can reasonably be expected to be desirable and do no harm).

 
Well, biotics are a weapon, for example. They can reasonably be expected to do harm. Not intrinsically bad or good, really, but intrinsically dangerous. So, it's Miranda who determines their value.

Ieldra2 wrote...
What Miranda does with them does not validate or invalidate them, since Miranda's father cannot be held responsible for what she does with them. If he could be held responsible, then Miranda would be right in her fear that all her achievements are not hers but his.

I don't think I quite follow. Wouldn't it be simpler, and more accurate, to say that Miranda does, in fact, determine the application/value of her enhancements, which is in turn what makes her wrong when she says that she can only take credit for her mistakes?

Modifié par flemm, 03 octobre 2011 - 09:44 .

[jtav]

I've said that myself. Lazrus is the big unique thing she offers. And Shepard is her child in a manner of speaking. His resurrection is her way of creating life, infertility or no. It's also the ultimate vindication of her gifts and her goals. What could advance humanity more than to conquer death itself? Yes, very interesting, especially if Arrival made things go screwy and she has to fix it.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I've said that myself. Lazrus is the big unique thing she offers. And Shepard is her child in a manner of speaking. His resurrection is her way of creating life, infertility or no. It's also the ultimate vindication of her gifts and her goals. What could advance humanity more than to conquer death itself? Yes, very interesting, especially if Arrival made things go screwy and she has to fix it.

Thematically, the possibilities are pretty amazing, really... almost to the point that I think we are unlikely to see justice done. And I would understand if that happened, in a sense, the game being what it is. But hopefully the writers will do something with it.

Cerberus is a big deal, obviously, but that is so much simpler.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
I was referring to cultural aspirations.

Transhumanism, as a movement, does not deal with cultural aspirations except as an outgrowth of human enhancement. Apart from promoting human enhancement, transhumanists are extremely varied in their ideologies. I have my view about what kind of cultural change is desirable, but neither my viewpoint nor the primary opposing one is an inherent part of transhumanism. So really, Liara and the asari don't count, even if you substitute one species for the other. 

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I'd be interested in transhumanism, but as something auxiliary to improving human nature, however that might be done. If it can be done entirely culturally, then awesome.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
I don't think I quite follow. Wouldn't it be simpler, and more accurate, to say that Miranda does, in fact, determine the application/value of her enhancements, which is in turn what makes her wrong when she says that she can only take credit for her mistakes?

Let me ask you this: is it a foreseeable consequence what Miranda does with her gifts? If not, then Miranda's father cannot be judged by what Miranda does with the gifts he gave her. He can neither be blamed nor praised for the consequences. Miranda is free, and Miranda's enhancements are neutral.
On the other hand, If you say that the value of Miranda's fathers actions, i.e. giving her enhancements (not the others), is determined by what she does with them, then you presume his responsibility for what Miranda does, for only if you can be said to have such responsibility can the action fall back on you.

But for anything morally neutral with regard to the consequences for others, it is usually counted as more desirable to give people what they want rather than deny them, for if it isn't bad, there is no reason to deny them. And who wouldn't want to be smarter and live longer? Thus, Miranda's enhancements are primarily a good thing.

Uh...this has gotten complicated.... There's likely a simpler way to express this.

Edit:
As for biotics, the telekinetic abilities can be used in many useful non-damaging ways. Depending on their exact nature, that may also apply to other biotic abilities. That they are primarily used as a weapon is a result of the prejudice against biotics, driving them out of the human cultural mainstream. Biotic abilities as as neutral as any tool.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 octobre 2011 - 10:24 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Uh...this has gotten complicated.... There's likely a simpler way to express this.

Probably. I'm going to mull it over a bit and see what I can come up with on the subject. EDIT: I guess one of the trouble spots is the question of whether the enhancements can really ever be judged separately from either the father's methods/motives or Miranda's actions/choices.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Biotic abilities as as neutral as any tool.

Right, but you'll note that I didn't say they were intrinsically bad. Just that they weren't intrinsically good, either. So, neutral, until we see what Miranda's choices are.

Modifié par flemm, 03 octobre 2011 - 10:26 .

[Golden Owl]

Just popping in to say, Thank you everybody for your answers to my 'Ruthless' question, very much appreciated....

Modifié par Golden Owl, 03 octobre 2011 - 11:18 .

[Eyeshield21]

Ieldra2 wrote...

flemm wrote...
I don't think I quite follow. Wouldn't it be simpler, and more accurate, to say that Miranda does, in fact, determine the application/value of her enhancements, which is in turn what makes her wrong when she says that she can only take credit for her mistakes?

Let me ask you this: is it a foreseeable consequence what Miranda does with her gifts? If not, then Miranda's father cannot be judged by what Miranda does with the gifts he gave her. He can neither be blamed nor praised for the consequences. Miranda is free, and Miranda's enhancements are neutral.
On the other hand, If you say that the value of Miranda's fathers actions, i.e. giving her enhancements (not the others), is determined by what she does with them, then you presume his responsibility for what Miranda does, for only if you can be said to have such responsibility can the action fall back on you.

But for anything morally neutral with regard to the consequences for others, it is usually counted as more desirable to give people what they want rather than deny them, for if it isn't bad, there is no reason to deny them. And who wouldn't want to be smarter and live longer? Thus, Miranda's enhancements are primarily a good thing.

Uh...this has gotten complicated.... There's likely a simpler way to express this.

Edit:
As for biotics, the telekinetic abilities can be used in many useful non-damaging ways. Depending on their exact nature, that may also apply to other biotic abilities. That they are primarily used as a weapon is a result of the prejudice against biotics, driving them out of the human cultural mainstream. Biotic abilities as as neutral as any tool.  

I agree with this, she is basicly made to be perfect, but like all of us, she's human, just like the rest of us.
But to me she's perfect.

[General User]

Miranda is better than perfect.

Afterall, if I had to choose between Miranda and "perfect", I'd choose Miranda every time.

Modifié par General User, 04 octobre 2011 - 12:56 .

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

I've said that myself. Lazrus is the big unique thing she offers. And Shepard is her child in a manner of speaking. His resurrection is her way of creating life, infertility or no. It's also the ultimate vindication of her gifts and her goals. What could advance humanity more than to conquer death itself? Yes, very interesting, especially if Arrival made things go screwy and she has to fix it.

Miranda: You did what?

Shepard: I told Hackett that I would stand trial in front of the Alliance.

Miranda: (pinches the bridge of her nose) I spend two years bringing you back to life and now you want to throw it all away!

Shepard: They haven't consigned me to death yet.

Miranda: And I suppose that blowing a system to kingdom come will warrant a simple slap on the wrist? Damnit Shepard, just when I think you couldn't be any more dense you go and prove me wrong.

Shepard: This isn't just about the trial is it?

Miranda: Contrary to what you may believe I care about you, and not just because you represent what is possibly the greatest scientific advancement ever made by humanity. Despite the fact that you're this dense, self-righteous, thorn in my side I still want to see this work out, even if I have to drag you kicking and screaming.

Shepard: I didn't know that I was so important to you.

Miranda: Don't let it go to your head, I do damn good work and I don't want to see it go to waste.

Shepard: Of course you don't.

Miranda: If you excuse me I need to get back to work, (Shepard turns to leave) and stop smiling damnit!

[flemm]

LoL. Very good, as always, Dr. Doctor. You really do capture a certain Miranda-esque tone in the dialogue. Serious, but with multiple undercurrents of affection, playfulness, etc.

Modifié par flemm, 04 octobre 2011 - 04:35 .

[pancholonita]

is a good conversation and quite funny. 

Modifié par pancholonita, 04 octobre 2011 - 05:48 .

[Ieldra]

Eyeshield21 wrote...
I agree with this, she is basicly made to be perfect, but like all of us, she's human, just like the rest of us.
But to me she's perfect.

I've always disliked the "just like the rest of us" line. It sounds like putting her down, making those physical and mental characteristics where Miranda is exactly not like the rest of us inconsequential. Well, I happen to think that being smarter and living to 225 years is not inconsequential.

I suspect this line is meant to reconcile her with the fact that she can make mistakes, but it didn't come across that way to me, given that she already acknowledged that in an earlier conversation. I always choose the Renegade alternative to the path leading to this line.

As for perfection, I find that label unfortunate. There is no measure of perfection, because there is no theoretical limit to human enhancement (though from some point on "human" wouldn't be exactly applicable any more) and because any two humans probably will never agree about what a perfect human would be like.

@Dr.Doctor
Very good as usual. I can hear her saying those words.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 octobre 2011 - 01:12 .

[jtav]

Yeah, me too. I want her to have a normal life in the sense of having friends and loved ones and for her to accept herself. But I don't want to see her brought down to normal. Above all else, I want her to keep doing the impossible.

[Athayniel]

JosephDucreux wrote...

Problem with your reasoning is that all projects relating and pertaining to the Reapers have all backfired horribly. The derelict Reaper and Arrival, among many other projects, pretty much constitutes a 100% failure rate when it comes to studying/using their technology. Miranda knows that all too well, and she's too much of a realist to believe that the CB will go any different even with 20 light years of precautions.

This right here.  Glad I waited before trying to post after reading Ieldra's comment. One definition of insanity is repeating the same actions over and over again and expecting a different result. Miranda is not insane. After everything that is uncovered over the course of the games with respect to attempts to study Reaper technology and indoctrination, the two things we know so far is that there's no defense against indoctrination, and there's no way back except to be under the effects of an even stronger form of mind control. Shiala is the *only* person shown thus far to have overcome the effects of indoctrination and that's only because she was taken by the Thorian.

You weigh the chance of maybe finding a technology that perhaps has the potential of being used against the Reapers against the certainty of anyone trying to study it falling under the sway of the very enemy you're trying to fight and for my Sheps at least it becomes a no-brainer. Not to mention I wouldn't trust Cerberus and The Illusive Man to do the right thing with the contents of a Scooby-Doo lunchbox let alone the Collector Base.

Modifié par Athayniel, 04 octobre 2011 - 01:29 .

[Xilizhra]

I've always disliked the "just like the rest of us" line. It sounds like putting her down, making those physical and mental characteristics where Miranda is exactly not like the rest of us inconsequential. Well, I happen to think that being smarter and living to 225 years is not inconsequential.

Considering all of Shepard's own enhancements, it seems less like a normal human trying to bring one who isn't down to that level and more like someone else enhanced and feeling somewhat isolated by it sharing a strategy of dealing with it.

[Rwjfox]

I SUPPORT THIS THREAD!!!!!!

[flemm]

Athayniel wrote...
One definition of insanity is repeating the same actions over and over again and expecting a different result. Miranda is not insane.

I do think Joseph makes some strong points regarding the CB and Miranda's involvement there. One is the very real danger of repeating past mistakes. Another is the necessity of having to trust one's instincts in situations where a lot of relevant information is unavailable.

That's partly why I am cool with Miranda's decision at the CB, and even cool with the precise wording of what she says. My only realy issue is: we need more information. It's important enough, and meaningful enough for her character development, that I want to hear more about it from her in ME3.

jtav wrote...
But I don't want to see her brought down to normal. Above all else, I want her to keep doing the impossible.

I'm curious on this point. Oddly enough, Miranda's status as lead NPC of ME2 made it less of a priority to emphasize the awesomeness of her combat prowess compared to characters introduced later in the game (who have to make a showy/spectacular entrance to make you want to try them out on the squad). Not a criticism, just a reality of how the game is designed.

In ME3, situation could easily be reversed, where Miranda shows up later and makes quite the entrance. Could be very cool.

I would also like to see her enhancements emphasized, especially as she (hopefully) grows more confident and comfortable with them.

Modifié par flemm, 04 octobre 2011 - 01:48 .