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[Collider]

Miranda always came across to me as being socially inexperienced, maybe even inept.

[Barquiel]

jtav wrote...

Actually I suspect the LOTSB writer and Miranda's main writer are on different pages. Main game Miranda is fairly normal, and LOTSB Miranda strikes me as not all that healthy.

I thought Patrick Weekes wrote Miranda and LOTSB?

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
Out of curiosity, what do you think about my earlier post regarding morality/conservatism/etc?

@all:
This is somewhat OT, I'm sorry to say. If it gets extended, we'll take it to PM.

@Xil:
We were comparing the DA universe to the ME universe. So what I wanted to say is that the ME universe is comparably more socially conservative and bioconservative than the DA universe. Evidence, among others: the absense of any s/s relationships (not even Liara if you take Casey Hudson at his word), and the presentation of Miranda's genetic engineering as something mainly bad. Compare also Reaper technology with blood magic. In the DA universe the mages are victims because of their potential to wield blood magic, and in spite of atrocities commited by some you are expected to have some sympathy for them. The clerical establishment, on the other hand, is presented as at least problematic. In the ME universe the "magical technology" is associated with the enemy and has a distinctive flavour of "things man was not meant to know" . That's a typical conservative attitude.

The different aspects of Paragon morality can be related to different political ideologies: multilateralist and politically (but not economically) egalitarian on one hand, bioconservative on the other. As I said elsewhere, Paragon morality represents the mainstream morality most of us in the Western cultural sphere are culturally conditioned into, so that if we don't take time to think, we tend to follow it because it feels right. In that sense, Paragon morality is conventional.

I, and my main Shepards with me, identify as moderately politically egalitarian and highly techno-progressivist, with the unfortunate result that I like certain aspects of Paragon morality while despising others. My main problem is that the ME universe assumes that when I support one aspect, I also support the other. Nothing could be further from the truth. The reason why I often come across as Renegade in debates, apart from the radical techno-progressivim, is that I am also anti-conventional. *You* make the effort of rationalizing many (if by no means all) Paragon decisions in a way I could agree with, but the game does not. The game's Paragon decisions as they are presented, are based on "it feels right", and that always makes me very, very skeptical. I do not trust emotions in morality at all.

BTW, regarding definitions: the different streams of conservatism are quite distinctive. It's too much to go into here as an OT excursion, so I'll just link you to the Wikipedia article.
 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2011 - 05:33 .

[Ieldra]

Barquiel wrote...

jtav wrote...

Actually I suspect the LOTSB writer and Miranda's main writer are on different pages. Main game Miranda is fairly normal, and LOTSB Miranda strikes me as not all that healthy.

I thought Patrick Weekes wrote Miranda and LOTSB?

Patrick Weekes wrote Miranda except on the critical path. The endgame decisions are on the critical path. I don't know who wrote that, possibly Mac Walters.

As for LotSB: Miranda says nothing except one or two generic sentences in LotSB, so what's not healthy? Except for that damnable "You have no idea how much you''ve changed her" of Liara.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2011 - 05:30 .

[CptData]

jtav wrote...

Trying out bew things is closer to what I ,eant. And I'd suspect her sexual history includes a good bit of recreational sex, but only the very occasional serious relationship ;ike Jacob and Shepard. Actually I suspect the LOTSB writer and Miranda's main writer are on different pages. Main game Miranda is fairly normal, and LOTSB Miranda strikes me as not all that healthy.

I'm sure the writers of ME2 had some brainstorming & meetings from time to time. Means, they have at least an idea who Miranda truely is.

(Okay: they also kinda messed up with VS. Sorry, that was just bad writing ... doesn't matter here).

Miranda is, at least in my eyes, quite insecure when it comes to relationships. I doubt she had any serious relationships before Jacob and I'm not even sure if her relationship with Jacob was serious enough. Don't get me wrong - Miranda is NOT a virgin anymore in ME2. But she also never had a time when she chewed through guys just to satisfy her physical needs. Nope. She's simply not the type for that stuff. And she is, as stated before, social awkward. Looking for dates in the extranet (read intranet for today) IS awkward for a beauty like she is.

About that stuff with "unable to get birth" - why did she want to know? Lemme guess - she didn't intent to become mother anytime soon. She just wanted to know more about her genetical enhancements and her doctor found out she won't be able to give birth since a genetical disposition.
Sex for recreation? Hmm, how old is Miranda? Does she really have last minute panic or something?
No. I doubt so.

Overall ... I kinda dislike "oversexing" Miranda. She comes with supernatural beauty, true, but she's not a vamp with a long list of past short living relationships and one night stands. Doesn't fit to her, not a bit.

Just my oppinion.

Funny - a die-hard-Ash-fan has to defend Miranda (natural enemy of Ash - except you support both)

[jtav]

Weekes wrote LOTSB proper, but someone else wrote the dossiers. Jay Turner, I think. And the Miranda if the game has an ex-boyfriend, and clearly knows what she wants on a physical level. Watch her body language during the kiss, she's rising to the bait, even flirtatious. What she does seem unused to is emotional investment/heartbreak. The dossier takes this into Raised By Wolves territory.

[Ieldra]

CptData wrote...
Funny - a die-hard-Ash-fan has to defend Miranda (natural enemy of Ash - except you support both)

Not so funny. Ash is a great character and I think most of us here like her as well. Miranda and Ashley may be on opposite ends of the personality scale in some aspects, but they're both strong human women who know what they want. If it wasn't for Miranda, the single maleShep I'd play in that case would definitely romance Ashley.

Miranda and Tali, on the other hand......you know, I don't dislike Tali, but as an LI she fails utterly for me, even if I could disregard that she's not human. The same with Jack - she's interesting as a character in spite of a few serious problems I have with her, but I absolutely can't stand her romance. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2011 - 05:40 .

[CptData]

jtav wrote...

Weekes wrote LOTSB proper, but someone else wrote the dossiers. Jay Turner, I think. And the Miranda if the game has an ex-boyfriend, and clearly knows what she wants on a physical level. Watch her body language during the kiss, she's rising to the bait, even flirtatious. What she does seem unused to is emotional investment/heartbreak. The dossier takes this into Raised By Wolves territory.

Just because she's able to use her body doesn't mean she got a mile-long list of sex'n'stuff.

I just pretend her as someone who does not go for quick'n'dirty sex. It makes it easier for me to see the good parts in her character and ignoring Miranda's flaws. However, it IS possible she used body'n'sex before to get a job done -  in that case, she could have been used by Cerberus. Who knows?

Seriously, the main reason why I don't have much left for Jack is her past of sex, crime and violence. In short, I don't have a thing for oversexed characters. Maybe I'm simply too old for that (29, roughly same age as Shepard).

Modifié par CptData, 05 octobre 2011 - 05:41 .

[Athayniel]

The best femmes fatale worked on the promise of love and sex. Not necessarily the love and sex itself. In that way an operative can have wide knowledge in the practices of seduction and sex and still be relatively awkward in a relationship. Especially if they are purposefully trying to differentiate between the relationship and 'work' if you see what I mean. Also, Miranda was definitely designed with a particular philosophy in mind, it's not a coincidence all her ancillary files and data entries are coded VX. It stands for Vixen.

Modifié par Athayniel, 05 octobre 2011 - 05:52 .

[Vertigo_1]

Well the files actually say 'Vixen'
At least the sound files for her.

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 05 octobre 2011 - 05:57 .

[CptData]

Can be.

I'd like to propose a good ol' cheesy trade off: since everyone has his/her very own Shepard and therefore his/her own universe, some guys can pretend Miranda being a vixen that's using her body and sex to get a job done, destroying men and wha'ever, others want to see Miranda differently. I'm one of those other guys. I'd like to see her as quite inexperienced, social awkward person that finally gets her fine tuning when working together with Shepard - it doesn't matter if she becomes a LI or not.

Works for me.

Besides that: a Miranda without a long history of one night stands, short-living relationships etc means a more healthy and stable relationship with Shepard. Just something to think about.

Modifié par CptData, 05 octobre 2011 - 06:01 .

[Athayniel]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

Well the files actually say 'Vixen'

yes, as do lots of entries in the coalesced.ini. VX is used as her two digit code though. It makes me think of a Sean Connery talking about prom queens. Memory association is a strange thing.

[Melra]

I can't see Shepard being her first. I think she's quite experienced, not that there's anything wrong with that, those who see it as a bad thing are just too conservative and need to stop dreaming about their virgin ladies. It won't happen, all it takes is few lines from Miri, possibly in ME3, and she'd be able to cut the wings off those imaginations.

She knows how to control men, she knows how to take charge. In short, if you're looking for someoen virginal you're looking at completely wrong LI.

I don't think she's too socially awkward either, she's awkward when it comes to feelings and what not, but I am pretty sure she's dealt with ton of different kinds of people on her journies. I don't think she'd be able to function as an operative too well, if her people skills were horrible.

CptData wrote...
Besides that: a Miranda without a long
history of one night stands, short-living relationships etc means a more
healthy and stable relationship with Shepard. Just something to think
about.

ME is hardly a fairytale imo. And changing Miri just to make her ''better'' for Shepard somehow sounds like a load of crap to me.

Modifié par Melrache, 05 octobre 2011 - 06:05 .

[jtav]

I agree with Melrache 100%. Mark today on your calendars. I think the world's coming to an end.

[Xilizhra]

The different aspects of Paragon morality can be related to different political ideologies: multilateralist and politically (but not economically) egalitarian on one hand, bioconservative on the other. As I said elsewhere, Paragon morality represents the mainstream morality most of us in the Western cultural sphere are culturally conditioned into, so that if we don't take time to think, we tend to follow it because it feels right. In that sense, Paragon morality is conventional.

How is Paragon morality bioconservative? The only Paragon objections to physical alteration I know of are Teltin and Overlord, and quite frankly, you only need common decency there.

[The Uncanny]

jtav wrote...

I agree with Melrache 100%.

Seconded. 

[CptData]

Never said Shepard is Mirandas first LI. And I certainly don't think ME is something like a fairytale. It's more kind of a dystopia since we still have crime, violence and slavery - not exactly an utopia.

I just dislike the idea of a oversexed Miranda. It doesn't work for me, not a bit, given to the facts we know about her. But yeah, you can see in Miranda whatever you like to see. We'll see in ME3 who got a better picture of her. Lookin' forward.

(World comes to an end? Not before I finished ME3 @ 12/21/2012 *eg*)

[Melra]

''Oversexed'' oh I hate that term, though if you expected something else, after seeing Miri, then I don't know what you were thinking. Experienced doesn't mean that she's been sleeping with half of the galaxy. Even though the romance scene might have not been everyone's favorite I still think it showed that certain side of Miri. She's not awkward when it comes to sex and she knows how to take control of men in the bedroom. I don't think anyone, who wouldn't have past experience, would be able to pull it off while being believable.

[jtav]

Melrache is right. My complaints about the romance scene are many, but I like that we have a woman who knows what she wants and how too get it. And there are two virginal LIs and one girl next door already. And Miranda isn't that.

[Vertigo_1]

The Uncanny wrote...

jtav wrote...

I agree with Melrache 100%.

Seconded. 

Thirded

jtav wrote...

Melrache is right. My complaints about the romance scene are many, but I like that we have a woman who knows what she wants and how too get it. And there are two virginal LIs and one girl next door already. And Miranda isn't that.

Of which I am glad

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 05 octobre 2011 - 06:34 .

[Eyeshield21]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

The Uncanny wrote...

jtav wrote...

I agree with Melrache 100%.

Seconded. 

Thirded

jtav wrote...

Melrache is right. My complaints about the romance scene are many, but I like that we have a woman who knows what she wants and how too get it. And there are two virginal LIs and one girl next door already. And Miranda isn't that.

Of which I am glad

there is? I though Tali was supposedly the girl next door?
oh and Fourthed(but I still support Miri's sexiness!)

[Eyeshield21]

CptData wrote...

jtav wrote...

Hmm, how old is Miranda? 

somewhere arouind 30.(but people live longer in the ME universe, plus her genetic enhancements will make her live half a life longer, like she'll probably die from old age when she is 200, or somewhere near that range.)

Edit: she is around 35.
Shep is around 29(not counting the two years he/she was being rebuilt.

Modifié par Eyeshield21, 05 octobre 2011 - 06:59 .

[jtav]

Miranda is 35, and must be between 32 and 38, even if you don't put stock in the website.

[Ieldra]

CptData wrote...
Besides that: a Miranda without a long history of one night stands, short-living relationships etc means a more healthy and stable relationship with Shepard. Just something to think about.

LOL. That assumption is definitely not true. That's just the way conventional morality tries to rationalize its dislike of a woman with sexual experience.

I say there is no way to avoid the conclusion that Miranda has had sexual experience outside of serious relationships. How much, that's anyone's guess, but it's definitely there and it's been with more than one or two partners. Besides, I find your equating of sexual experience with "having slept with everyone in the galaxy", as Melrache so aptly put it, quite telling. Recreational sex is nothing bad, may I remind you.

As for the femme fatale aspect, I agree that it's more about the promise of sex than sex itself. I have no idea if Miranda has ever had sex as part of an operation. But if she has - what of it?

Really, the only way Miranda is "oversexed" is in her presentation. And BTW, I'm significantly older than you.

Edit:
Also, what Melrache said.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2011 - 07:11 .

[Eyeshield21]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CptData wrote...
Besides that: a Miranda without a long history of one night stands, short-living relationships etc means a more healthy and stable relationship with Shepard. Just something to think about.

LOL. That assumption is definitely not true. That's just the way conventional morality tries to rationalize its dislike of a woman with sexual experience.

I say there is no way to avoid the conclusion that Miranda has had sexual experience outside of serious relationships. How much, that's anyone's guess, but it's definitely there and it's been with more than one or two partners. Besides, I find your equating of sexual experience with "having slept with everyone in the galaxy", as Melrache so aptly put it, quite telling. Recreational sex is nothing bad, may I remind you.

As for the femme fatale aspect, I agree that it's more about the promise of sex than sex itself. I have no idea if Miranda has ever had sex as part of an operation. But if she has - what of it?

Really, the only way Miranda is "oversexed" is in her presentation. And BTW, I'm significantly older than you.

Edit:
Also, what Melrache said.

I have to agree. she is socialy akward, but knows how to work the bedroom(or in this case, the engine room.)
It'll probably change slightly in ME3, but only very very slightly. People don't want Miri changed( though she could be nicer to shep, but that probably will happen, especially if romanced), at least drasticly changed.