82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Eyeshield21]

MisterJB wrote...

We have to fill the daily quota somehow.

Miri pics, maybe?

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I want this to be restricted to the the epilogue, AND I want a choice about it.

Here's the thing... I don't see why the infertility issue would be introduced just to be undone in an epilogue. Wouldn't that be rather pointless?

I don't care if it's pointless. I want Miranda to be able to pass on her gifts. Period. For once, I don't care one bit about dramatic concerns.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2011 - 09:32 .

[Ieldra]

UserForFun wrote...
Don't mean to spoil the mood, but Miranda's fertility, or infertility is insignificant, unless Bioware wants to continue Mass Effect, with the protagonist being Shepard's child. ( Which I doubt. )

It's not insignificant to those who want to imagine a future for their Shepards with Miranda that isn't contradicted by canon.

Apart from that, I also don't want Miranda's story to be interpretable in any way as an Aesop about the evils of genetic engineering. At least, I want to have one of ending of several that isn't interpretable that way. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2011 - 09:37 .

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I want this to be restricted to the the epilogue, AND I want a choice about it.

Here's the thing... I don't see why the infertility issue would be introduced just to be undone in an epilogue. Wouldn't that be rather pointless?

I don't care if it's pointless. I want Miranda to be able to pass on her gifts. Period. For once, I don't care one bit about dramatic concerns.

Why does it matter if she's infertile? She can just copy what her father did; you yourself said that was a wholly good thing for her.

[jtav]

MisterJB wrote...

jtav wrote...

More like Throne of Bhaal, where all the romances resulted in pregnancy come the epilogue.

Jaheira didn't get pregnant.

Thanks. I just checked and you're right. Been playing with Ascension too long.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I don't care if it's pointless. I want Miranda to be able to pass on her gifts. Period. For once, I don't care one bit about dramatic concerns.

Right, but that is because you want to do away with the whole concept. I'm not a fan either, for the record. However, operating on the theory that it was introduced for a reason, I don't see the scenario you are proposing as likely.

Possibly it will just turn out to be false information. To the extent that the devs end up rejecting the idea and want to undo it, I would think that just declaring that the info is false would be simpler than a complicated epilogue. (By "declaring" I mean revealing over the course of the story.)

Modifié par flemm, 05 octobre 2011 - 09:42 .

[jtav]

And I'm terrified we'll end up with an unplanned pregnancy. Permission to replay the SM if that happens?

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I want this to be restricted to the the epilogue, AND I want a choice about it.

Here's the thing... I don't see why the infertility issue would be introduced just to be undone in an epilogue. Wouldn't that be rather pointless?

I don't care if it's pointless. I want Miranda to be able to pass on her gifts. Period. For once, I don't care one bit about dramatic concerns.

Why does it matter if she's infertile? She can just copy what her father did; you yourself said that was a wholly good thing for her.

I proposed that as a possibility for the future. At the moment, Miranda wouldn't think so. She'd need some character development that lets her make peace with her origins in a fundamental way first. Then we'd need some hint that she thinks about using her father's technology to have children. We'd need that hint because it would be another significant step for her to disassociate the technology from her childhood memories.

This would actually be my preferred ending, but it needs character development to become plausible. 

@flemm:
I'm open to the "false information" scenario, but only if it doesn't involve an unplanned pregnancy. If any scenario where the infertility is revealed as false information involves an unplanned pregnancy, I'll abort the romance with all of my maleSheps.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2011 - 09:47 .

[Eyeshield21]

jtav wrote...

And I'm terrified we'll end up with an unplanned pregnancy. Permission to replay the SM if that happens?

red vs blue referance:
Sarge: Permission denied.
Grif: eh, had to try.

[Xilizhra]

To be honest, I don't even know how many of Miranda's gifts would be heritable. I know that biotics aren't; they require eezo molecule dosage in the womb. And intelligence is far from wholly genetic. The most you'd likely be able to get out of it is increased lifespan, which is something, but not the same thing.

[jtav]

Actually I suspect I could get out of it by romancing Tali. I have an even more complicated relationship with her than Miranda.

[Eyeshield21]

jtav wrote...

Actually I suspect I could get out of it by romancing Tali. I have an even more complicated relationship with her than Miranda.

what do you mean?

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
To be honest, I don't even know how many of Miranda's gifts would be heritable. I know that biotics aren't; they require eezo molecule dosage in the womb. And intelligence is far from wholly genetic. The most you'd likely be able to get out of it is increased lifespan, which is something, but not the same thing.

I've had interesting debates about that. The main problem is that it would all be diluted within a few generations. But I care about this as much for its symbolic value - if Miranda can be genetically engineered for a longer life and higher intelligence and pass on those gifts, then others can, too. That would be a true advancement of humanity...

As for the biotics, I have some ideas about that, but I'm not ready to reveal them atm. It's all in the realm of fanfic anyway.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2011 - 09:55 .

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
To be honest, I don't even know how many of Miranda's gifts would be heritable. I know that biotics aren't; they require eezo molecule dosage in the womb. And intelligence is far from wholly genetic. The most you'd likely be able to get out of it is increased lifespan, which is something, but not the same thing.

I've had interesting debates about that. The main problem is that it would all be diluted within a few generations. But I care about this as much for its symbolic value - if Miranda can be genetically engineered for a longer life and higher intelligence and pass on those gifts, then others can, too. That would be a true advancement of humanity...

Isn't gene therapy almost universal in Alliance soldiers and reasonably common elsewhere? Miranda's not really unique, she's just one of the few examples of someone willing to spend a fortune on making one individual as close to perfect as possible. And his reasons for it were entirely self-serving. So the only way I can see this being a real achievement, as opposed to an interesting if morally tainted experimental result, is if the technology is sufficiently distributed for sufficiently altruistic reasons to give humans these enhancements for their own benefit.

[jtav]

Eyeshield21 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Actually I suspect I could get out of it by romancing Tali. I have an even more complicated relationship with her than Miranda.

what do you mean?

Basically, Tali rememinds me of me about ten years ago, and her romance dredges up both painful memories and long-held dreams. I'm debating which of the two to romance and still conflicted.

[Eyeshield21]

jtav wrote...

Eyeshield21 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Actually I suspect I could get out of it by romancing Tali. I have an even more complicated relationship with her than Miranda.

what do you mean?

Basically, Tali rememinds me of me about ten years ago, and her romance dredges up both painful memories and long-held dreams. I'm debating which of the two to romance and still conflicted.

hmm, well, I hope it works out.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
To be honest, I don't even know how many of Miranda's gifts would be heritable. I know that biotics aren't; they require eezo molecule dosage in the womb. And intelligence is far from wholly genetic. The most you'd likely be able to get out of it is increased lifespan, which is something, but not the same thing.

I've had interesting debates about that. The main problem is that it would all be diluted within a few generations. But I care about this as much for its symbolic value - if Miranda can be genetically engineered for a longer life and higher intelligence and pass on those gifts, then others can, too. That would be a true advancement of humanity...

Isn't gene therapy almost universal in Alliance soldiers and reasonably common elsewhere? Miranda's not really unique, she's just one of the few examples of someone willing to spend a fortune on making one individual as close to perfect as possible. And his reasons for it were entirely self-serving. So the only way I can see this being a real achievement, as opposed to an interesting if morally tainted experimental result, is if the technology is sufficiently distributed for sufficiently altruistic reasons to give humans these enhancements for their own benefit.

The results of gene therapy applied after conception aren't usually heritable, so it's not the same thing. Also Miranda's father went further than others - I am unaware of anyone else engineering a 200-year lifespan and enhanced intelligence, for one. And lastly, that Miranda's father's motives were self-serving has no bearing on how you value the technology as such.
You're right in one thing: wide distribution would be necessary to make this a true achievement. I can always imagine that. What I cannot imagine plausibly without a little support from the game is how things start with Miranda.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2011 - 10:03 .

[Xilizhra]

The results of gene therapy applied after conception aren't usually heritable, so it's not the same thing. Also Miranda's father went further than others - I am unaware of anyone else engineering a 200-year lifespan and enhanced intelligence, for one. And lastly, that Miranda's father's motives were self-serving has no bearing on how you value the technology as such.
You're right in one thing: wide distribution would be necessary to make this a true achievement. I can always imagine that. What I cannot imagine plausibly without a little support from the game is how things start with Miranda.

Quite frankly, I'm very leery of any technology that just makes some people inherently better than other people, especially when it can be purchased. That it exists is impressive, but its effects on society may not be. That's a legitimate worry and not just knee-jerk bioconservatism; I have no problem with genetic enhancements and the like as such, just the effects they might have on wider society.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

The results of gene therapy applied after conception aren't usually heritable, so it's not the same thing. Also Miranda's father went further than others - I am unaware of anyone else engineering a 200-year lifespan and enhanced intelligence, for one. And lastly, that Miranda's father's motives were self-serving has no bearing on how you value the technology as such.
You're right in one thing: wide distribution would be necessary to make this a true achievement. I can always imagine that. What I cannot imagine plausibly without a little support from the game is how things start with Miranda.

Quite frankly, I'm very leery of any technology that just makes some people inherently better than other people, especially when it can be purchased. That it exists is impressive, but its effects on society may not be. That's a legitimate worry and not just knee-jerk bioconservatism; I have no problem with genetic enhancements and the like as such, just the effects they might have on wider society.

I agree that it's a legitimate worry. I believe I said that before. But in which way things like this may be made available is a different question from whether or not it's desirable and/or acceptable in the first place. Likely there would be violent disagreements, but that's material for different stories. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2011 - 10:15 .

[UserForFun]

Since you give it so much thought, I'll unravel the doubts.

Miranda is not infertile, that is without a doubt. Not completely, anyhow. Her father, used perhaps billions of credits to ensure that he'll build a dynasty, as she stated; A dynasty is a long line of superior individuals, from a genetically point of view ( Similar to planned-marriages among the noble families, to preserve the '' purest '' line ) 

Within her dossier, her condition is remarked as benign neoplasm, which is basically a tumor that prevents growth. Within Mass Effect Universe ( In future ) there are numerous treatments to eradicate any sort of cancerous cells. Thus, provided she desires to conceive a child, she shall..

However, I sincerely doubt that Miranda or Shepard are the type to settle down. There's always something else to be done.

Modifié par UserForFun, 05 octobre 2011 - 10:17 .

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The results of gene therapy applied after conception aren't usually heritable, so it's not the same thing. Also Miranda's father went further than others - I am unaware of anyone else engineering a 200-year lifespan and enhanced intelligence, for one. And lastly, that Miranda's father's motives were self-serving has no bearing on how you value the technology as such.
You're right in one thing: wide distribution would be necessary to make this a true achievement. I can always imagine that. What I cannot imagine plausibly without a little support from the game is how things start with Miranda.

Quite frankly, I'm very leery of any technology that just makes some people inherently better than other people, especially when it can be purchased. That it exists is impressive, but its effects on society may not be. That's a legitimate worry and not just knee-jerk bioconservatism; I have no problem with genetic enhancements and the like as such, just the effects they might have on wider society.

I agree that it's a legitimate worry. I believe I said that before. But in which way things like this may be made available is a different question from whether or not it's desirable and/or acceptable in the first place. Likely there would be violent disagreements, but that's material for different stories. 

So, in the end, I do believe that Mass Effect is heteronormatively clueless, but I cannot honestly say that it's promoting bioconservatism. Miranda is the only person whose genetic enhancements are called into question other than the baby Jacob's from that one side quest, and that's one without an explicitly defined answer (I always vote for him to get gene therapy), and that's solely because of her father's unpleasantness and her own understandable psychological issues that arise from that.

[Eyeshield21]

damn, I like these debates.

[Ieldra]

@UserForFun:
We've been over that after LotSB came out, UserForFun. Basically, it's 100% implausible that Miranda's condition cannot be reserved by ME universe technology. But that has never prevented writers from putting things into their stories they really wanted.

With regard to Miranda's father, a genetic dynasty is basically nonviable unless you make sure its members only mate with enhanced people. If they don't, their traits will be diluted. For that reason, some of us have speculated that Miranda's father put in the (reversible) infertility as a failsafe measure, to ensure whoever controls the dynasty would have control over its reproduction. It makes an evil kind of sense.

Still, the first point holds. Given the information we have, it's not plausible that the infertility is not reversible. The question is: will Bioware let themselves be constrained by that fact?

@Xilizhra:
It's my interpretation as well that Miranda's self-esteem problems come from her childhood experiences with her father rather than her genetic engineering. But I wonder how confident I should be that Bioware actually makes that distinction.

And now I have to leave this very interesting exchange - it's long past midnight for me. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 octobre 2011 - 10:27 .

[Eyeshield21]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@UserForFun:
We've been over that after LotSB came out, UserForFun. Basically, it's 100% implausible that Miranda's condition cannot be reserved by ME universe technology. But that has never prevented writers from putting things into their stories they really wanted.

With regard to Miranda's father, a genetic dynasty is basically nonviable unless you make sure its members only mate with enhanced people. If they don't, their traits will be diluted. For that reason, some of us have speculated that Miranda's father put in the (reversible) infertility as a failsafe measure, to ensure whoever controls the dynasty would have control over its reproduction. It makes an evil kind of sense.

Still, the first point holds. Given the information we have, it's not plausible that the infertility is not reversible. The question is: will Bioware let themselves be constrained by that fact?

@Xilizhra:
It's my interpretation as well that Miranda's self-esteem problems come from her childhood experiences with her father rather than her genetic engineering. But I wonder how confident I should be that Bioware actually makes that distinction.

you seeing this, BW?

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The question is: will Bioware let themselves be constrained by that fact?

To me the question is: why is this part of the story in the first place?

I dunno tbh. I don't really see much point to it. Nothing obvious, anyway.