82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizhra:
It's my interpretation as well that Miranda's self-esteem problems come from her childhood experiences with her father rather than her genetic engineering. But I wonder how confident I should be that Bioware actually makes that distinction.

I'd say this is technically true, but they're very closely intertwined.

[UserForFun]

Ieldra, we're both very well acquainted with the fact that the writers are making up stuff as they go along.

Take for example Miranda's famous quote '' Shepard will have to fight to earn my trust! '' -- And obviously, she seems that way during the opening of Mass Effect 2; A cold, calculated, woman, that keeps her personal life to herself.

Then suddenly, she's all friendly and abruptly desires to open herself up in Normandy, and begins gradually to share her life, starting with her genetic make-up, her father and so on.  It doesn't make sense, how her personality abruptly shifts between the opening-middle game.

And it doesn't make sense how her personality shifts at the end either.

Modifié par UserForFun, 05 octobre 2011 - 10:38 .

[Xilizhra]

I think Shepard started earning her trust on Freedom's Progress.

[spirosz]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think Shepard started earning her trust on Freedom's Progress.

Slightly, but I believe it comes down to the mechanics of the game itself/resources because I doubt that one scenario could open herself up so easily.  That's why I like fanfictions because they gives more background between each mission. 

EDIT:  To be honest, her opening up so fast, sort of put me off guard.  Otherwise, I like her development after her LM, even though I didn't romance her, I'm glad Bioware is focusing on the friendship path because she's one of the more interesting characters IMO. 

Modifié par spiros9110, 05 octobre 2011 - 10:43 .

[flemm]

UserForFun wrote...
It doesn't make sense, how her personality abruptly shifts between the opening-middle game.

I understand why the ending is controversial, but Miranda growing to trust Shepard is perfectly natural. "Shepard will have to earn my trust" indicates that this plausibly might happen, were Shepard to conduct himself accordingly. Which is what happens.

It's not "I don't trust Shepard and will continue not to, in spite of the success of the mission and myriad other factors that would naturally lead us to trust one another."

That said, it's true that the game design is based on a sort of tiered system, where everything happens in stages. It's not very naturalistic in that sense. So, I certainly agree that regular prose can be more nuanced in these areas.

Modifié par flemm, 05 octobre 2011 - 10:49 .

[UserForFun]

Exactly, you think..! There is no evidence.. There is not even a subtle tonality, or a minor speech, even an exchange of words to indicate it. It is simple abrupt alteration of personality, without an explanation. It is speculation and interpretation, no facts.

And Flemm, the change began on Normandy, after Freedom's Progress. The moment Shepard stepped on board, Miranda accepted him. I mean; From what I experienced in real life, it takes quite a bit of time to accept someone.

As for the imagination; I can fill the blanks, but I need something to work with, I need atleast a hint, atleast a piece of fact... Otherwise, who's writing the story? Myself or Bioware?

[flemm]

UserForFun wrote...
Otherwise, who's writing the story? Myself or Bioware?

Both. That's actually the whole point.

Modifié par flemm, 05 octobre 2011 - 10:52 .

[UserForFun]

Pardon me Flemm, I apologize. It was poor choice of words.

I thought my point digged trough; What I meant is following -- We, as players, can paint the direction of the story. We're given a series of choices, and we determine it's direction. Specifically -- We dye it in each side we please, however we cannot dye the direction of the story without having a hint of information, even if it subtle, it will suffice. In Miranda's case, we get none.

There's a difference between mistery, based on a series of facts, where we can interpretate, and pure speculation based on no fundation at all.

Modifié par UserForFun, 05 octobre 2011 - 11:13 .

[flemm]

UserForFun wrote...
 In Miranda's case, we get none.

I disagree. (Not saying my perception is necessarily more accurate than yours, just to be clear.)

Miranda's initial acceptance of Shepard on the Normandy is not surprising at all: she has been ordered to do so. And she has been clear from the beginning that she will follow her orders and support Shepard in the official sense.

In her second full conversation, you ask her again to tell you more about herself. And she says, "Ok, that's fair," basically. Meaning: the mission has been progressing, and we've been fighting side by side, so it's fair that I tell you more about myself, in light of that.

If you, as the player, want to wait awhile to have that conversation, you may do so. If you think Miranda working with Shep on Freedom's Progress is enough, that is your choice. But, by all accounts, as the mission progresses, it is extremely plausible that, at some point, Miranda would decide that being more open with Shepard is warranted, as s/he contines to earn her trust through actions in the game. (Gaining Miranda's trust = progressing the mission, essentially.)

The next major development is the Loyalty Mission, which obviously takes the relationship to the next level in terms of trust. I don't see how the writers could have made this more organic, given the limitations of how dialogue works in the game. She isn't ready to talk. Then she's ready to talk. Not very complicated, really. Happens all the time in real life.

Modifié par flemm, 05 octobre 2011 - 11:28 .

[NoxNoctum]

I support this thread.

I really like Miranda especially compared to Ashley *ugh*... didn't go for that space republican one bit

I enjoyed seeing her somewhat hard character soften and become more feminine. Nice change because often it's the other way around.

She's also... let's face it, way hotter than Ashley.

[Shotokanguy]

NoxNoctum wrote...

I really like Miranda especially compared to Ashley *ugh*... didn't go for that space republican one bit

Get out, and don't come back until you form a better opinion of Ashley.

[MisterJB]

Thank you for your support but I reject the notion that Miranda somehow became more feminine during the course of ME2. She underwent personal changes but. IMO, this Miranda:



is no less feminine that this Miranda:


edit: Be nice, shoto.
However, he has a point. In the future, please refrain from insulting other characters

Modifié par MisterJB, 06 octobre 2011 - 01:48 .

[CuseGirl]

flemm wrote...
The next major development is the Loyalty Mission, which obviously takes the relationship to the next level in terms of trust. I don't see how the writers could have made this more organic, given the limitations of how dialogue works in the game. She isn't ready to talk. Then she's ready to talk. Not very complicated, really. Happens all the time in real life.

the other thing is, we dont have the in-between stuff. If this game was "real", we would be helping Jacob clean weapons, mocking Samara's meditation when she walks into the mess hall, listening at the Battery door while Garrus is doing his calibrations. And MaleShep would probably filrt with Miranda (subtlely [sp?]) or FemShep would crack jokes with Miranda about how Jack needs to put on clothes. I just choose to pretend that stuff happens.

[Dr. Doctor]

I always figured that Shepard was an asset to Miranda early on. The cold, calculating approach works for when you need to get off a space station that's crawling with killer robots, but when you're trying to engender an asset to your cause a more personable approach.

On an unrelated topic, after seeing some stills from the Avengers movie, I can't help but think that the Black Widow's costume sort of resembles Miranda's loyalty outfit.

[jtav]

It does. Though the Cap movie has me convinced Hayley Atwell would make a great Miranda.

[Shotokanguy]

jtav wrote...

It does. Though the Cap movie has me convinced Hayley Atwell would make a great Miranda.

WHOA WHOA WHOA.

That's just your opinion on Yvonne Strahovski speaking. There's only one option for a real person to play Miranda.

[Ieldra]

Shotokanguy wrote...

NoxNoctum wrote...

I really like Miranda especially compared to Ashley *ugh*... didn't go for that space republican one bit

Get out, and don't come back until you form a better opinion of Ashley.

It is not required to have a good opinion of Ashley to post in this thread. Say this one who likes Ashley quite a bit. Having said that, he actually has a point. That is somewhat how Ashley comes across. She's only moderate enough about it that it doesn't overshadow her good qualities.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The question is: will Bioware let themselves be constrained by that fact?

To me the question is: why is this part of the story in the first place?

I dunno tbh. I don't really see much point to it. Nothing obvious, anyway.

The question I ask is this: why did they give the other characters these little funny (or not) but in the end inconsequential snippets in their LotSB dossiers, but Miranda a serious problem? Basically, you can ignore all other characters' dossiers without much of an impact on how they're perceived. Not so with Miranda. Did they just want to make her more likeable and were insensitive when making the choice about how? Or was it their intention to do "do something with this" as you say?

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", as they say. I very much suspect the infertility was put in to make Miranda more likeable but the writer just didn't think about the other consequences of what he was writing.

And now that it's in, they have to make something with it of people will complain that it's pointless. And what they might do with is reason for some trepidation on my part. I wouldn't like it if they kept it in without comment, but the thought of the "miracle pregnancy" scenario is enough to fear their "solution".

[Arijharn]

For some reason, I really don't think of the dossier to be an issue at all. Or it could be 'misinformation' (although I have no idea why someone would go to the effort, in universe, to do something so personal unless it was part of some Cerberus past op that hasn't been thoroughly cleaned afterwards)

I don't think it was deliberate of the writers as some sort of statement they wanted to make about Miranda, unless they're going to use it as some plot hook come ME3. I also don't think it was 'stupid' either to make her infertile. What I do think is a bit stupid is when people harp on about it's inclusion as some sort of Sith trick at best and writer 'insensitivity' at worse, especially when one of those people is Ieldra who I think is otherwise one of the most level headed people on the forum (!)

That probably came out wrong (as in; insulting) if so; much apologies, it just got to my internal frustration meter after coming back to this thread after a bit of an absence only to see people so divided upon it, which is sorta good (I love discussion!) but also a bit dragging on (rehashed discussion... unless it's someone new to the thread and Miranda love).

But for the sake of the conversation:
a) If true; then I'm not sure how hugely this will affect Miranda's core makeup and I seriously doubt it would affect my Shep's thoughts about her (or even mine; I still think she's arguably one of the strongest characters in the game).
If false; I can't imagine the benefit someone could gain from spreading this particular bit of 'misinformation.' It's hardly going to topple governments or expose Cerberus or anything else.... unless it's Liara's attempt to be sneaky and get Shephard to think in some altered way regarding Miranda. However; I think I'm guilty of giving Liara too much (or too little) credit.

[Ieldra]

Shotokanguy wrote...

jtav wrote...

It does. Though the Cap movie has me convinced Hayley Atwell would make a great Miranda.

WHOA WHOA WHOA.

That's just your opinion on Yvonne Strahovski speaking. There's only one option for a real person to play Miranda.

Neither jtav nor I have said we didn't like Strahovski. We just aren't as fixated on her as everyone else here appears to be. We care about Miranda, the character in the ME universe. Who's cast in her role is obviously important but secondary to the character herself.

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...
That probably came out wrong

No offense. I can take as well as give
And really, I wouldn't mind at all if it turned out we took this way too seriously. Well, we probably do anyway. Such is the lot of a fan, LOL.

But for the sake of the conversation:
a) If true; then I'm not sure how hugely this will affect Miranda's core makeup and I seriously doubt it would affect my Shep's thoughts about her (or even mine; I still think she's arguably one of the strongest characters in the game).

No, it wouldn't change my opinion of Miranda as a character in any way, nor would I like her less. She's still the best character in the game, one of those with the most notable presence and the perfect companion for Shepard IMO. However, I would hate the message that sends with regard to Miranda's genetic engineering if they also don't present a way to circumvent (if not exactly cure) the problem.  

If false; I can't imagine the benefit someone could gain from spreading this particular bit of 'misinformation.' It's hardly going to topple governments or expose Cerberus or anything else.... unless it's Liara's attempt to be sneaky and get Shephard to think in some altered way regarding Miranda. However; I think I'm guilty of giving Liara too much (or too little) credit.

Perhaps my previous statement came across wrongly. I didn't mean it could've been deliberate misinformation. I say either (1) there must be some story aspect this ties into, or (2) it was put in as a sympathy card and the writer thought it was otherwise inconsequential and the fans wouldn't care. An accident, so to speak.

If true, it could also have been intended as a message that no, you won't be able to get a family life with Miranda at the end. Which personally I wouldn't mind (though it begs the question of why this was considered necessary). It just happens that for a character like Miranda, infertility sends other messages, too.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 octobre 2011 - 07:32 .

[Athayniel]

flemm wrote...

UserForFun wrote...
 In Miranda's case, we get none.

I disagree. (Not saying my perception is necessarily more accurate than yours, just to be clear.)

Miranda's initial acceptance of Shepard on the Normandy is not surprising at all: she has been ordered to do so. And she has been clear from the beginning that she will follow her orders and support Shepard in the official sense.

In her second full conversation, you ask her again to tell you more about herself. And she says, "Ok, that's fair," basically. Meaning: the mission has been progressing, and we've been fighting side by side, so it's fair that I tell you more about myself, in light of that.

If you, as the player, want to wait awhile to have that conversation, you may do so. If you think Miranda working with Shep on Freedom's Progress is enough, that is your choice. But, by all accounts, as the mission progresses, it is extremely plausible that, at some point, Miranda would decide that being more open with Shepard is warranted, as s/he contines to earn her trust through actions in the game. (Gaining Miranda's trust = progressing the mission, essentially.)

Don't forget that the way you choose to end the mission on Freedom's Progress helps. If Shep went Renegade then (s)he followed Miranda's advice and got everything Cerberus could possibly hope for from the data and Veetor. If Shep went Paragon, it was in contravention of Miranda's advice but (s)he still got all the data and possibly started to repair the horribly bad relationship between Cerberus and the Flotilla after the incident with the Idenna. Considering how bad Cerberus is with diplomacy in general the results speak for themselves. That would be something Miranda would appreciate.

[Melra]

jtav wrote...

It does. Though the Cap movie has me convinced Hayley Atwell would make a great Miranda.

There's no booty like Yvonne's booty, so nobody else can pull it off.

[diamondedge]

Neither jtav nor I have said we didn't like Strahovski. We just aren't as fixated on her as everyone else here appears to be. We care about Miranda, the character in the ME universe. Who's cast in her role is obviously important but secondary to the character herself.

She is the face and voice - and she isn't some lowly model either. She is an actress with experience who would actually understand the role and her character - which is precisely why there are no real secondary options for Miranda, IMO.

[The DreadLord - Aditya]

Miranda played a major part in ME2 (more than what Ashley did in ME1) even though Miranda might be a bit sexualised she's the heart & soul of ME franchise... She has to be a permanent squad member in ME3 cause she just awesome... & she can beat any spectre in battle with her load of biotic talents so she must stay...