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[flemm]

CuseGirl wrote...

how will the game handle characters who didn't complete their loyalty missions in ME-2? I'm assuming Oriana will not be mentioned in ME-3 once Miranda shows up?

I think loyalty has probably had all the impact it will have by affecting survival rates during the SM. It's possible to get characters through unloyal, but I doubt it's common enough to make it worth designing content specifically for that. At least, that would be my guess.

Re: Oriana, I'd be a little surprised if she appears. Miranda has some pretty major plot hooks that would likely get priority in a war story such as this. Cerberus, mainly. But Lazarus as another thing. And there needs to be at least some romance-related material. I think that Oriana has basically served her purpose, which was to flesh out Miranda's character, and that she can plausibly be left where she is, with maybe a passing mention at some point. For example, as part of Miranda explaining her motives/what she's fighting for, etc.

Edit: new page, so I guess cute Oriana/Miranda image incoming:

Modifié par flemm, 09 octobre 2011 - 04:57 .

[CuseGirl]

so we'll assume those missions were completed if those characters survived? hmmm...weak writing...but saves time.....jeez can March come fast enuff

[flemm]

CuseGirl wrote...

so we'll assume those missions were completed if those characters survived? hmmm...weak writing...but saves time.....jeez can March come fast enuff

Well, realistically, the game can only track and adjust for so many variables, and there are going to be a lot already. So, I don't know. Creating a flag for lack of loyalty seems like a low-priority to me. But maybe they will, in which case I guess you'd get different dialogue choices.

From an in-story perspective, I could see getting an unloyal or "distracted" character through the SM alive as sufficient to earn that individual's loyalty in any event, though.

Modifié par flemm, 09 octobre 2011 - 05:05 .

[CuseGirl]

flemm wrote...

From an in-story perspective, I could see getting an unloyal or "distracted" character through the SM alive as sufficient to earn that individual's loyalty in any event, though.

good point.....i can't wait to see this "slightly more mature Jack" lollll........i hope we dont have to go as long as horizon to see our LIs.....

[Athayniel]

They already have a flag for the loyalty of each squaddie. The devs have already said that ME3 will be importing over a thousand flags from ME2.

[flemm]

Athayniel wrote...

They already have a flag for the loyalty of each squaddie.

That is true, definitely. But the question is: does it makes sense to create content in ME3  that is triggered by that flag? I can't see it being a big priority since lack of loyalty tends to lead to death in the SM anyway. But you never know.

 

[Vertigo_1]

I don't see it going further than dialogue changes considering these characters can die (in ME2)...the big focus now (in ME3) is the Reapers and what the squadmates are up to.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
So, if flemm's right, task #1 of the artists will be differentiating her from Ash while keeping her recognizable. Thoughts?

I say it's primarily the color scheme. Miranda will keep her black and white scheme, Ashley will retain some red and/or or Alliance blue. Also Miranda has very pale skin, Ashley has a mediterranean complexion.

About your idea of scarring: as long as it looks cool, as in Shepard's scars in ME1, instead of disfiguring I would find it interesting, though it should be temporary given Miranda's accelerated healing.

Two things I would hate: any change in her eyes since they're character-defining (Shepard's "Renegade eye" scheme doesn't belong in ME - we aren't in the SW universe, damn it), and more "angsty and tortured" because I dislike that kind of character. Miranda has enough problems coming to terms with her origins, she doesn't need more. She should deal with any emotional fallout of her falling-out with TIM without a torrent of self-castigation. I want her confident!

[Errol Dnamyx]

Athayniel wrote...

They already have a flag for the loyalty of each squaddie. The devs have already said that ME3 will be importing over a thousand flags from ME2.

Untrue. There are a thousand flags, but who knows how many of those are going to be imported into ME3.
(lolDA2)

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I say it's primarily the color scheme. Miranda will keep her black and white scheme, Ashley will retain some red and/or or Alliance blue. Also Miranda has very pale skin, Ashley has a mediterranean complexion.

It's probably sufficient, especially given that the two characters would likely be at odds immediately. This would complement the visual differences.

Playing the ME1 and ME2 love interests off of one another, as a dynamic in ME3, was mentioned in some developer chatter fairly early on, I believe. It's hard to imagine Miranda-Ashley not being a part of that, as they are the Alliance and Cerberus loyalists respectively. It's ME1 and ME2 in a nutshell, basically, when you put these two characters together.

Having said all that, a more extreme Miranda makeover would not surprise me. There's the "what uniform is she wearing?" question to begin with, and then I just think that messing around with Miranda's appearance would be a difficult temptation to resist. It's such a hotly debated topic already. So, fuel to the fire.

Modifié par flemm, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:30 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Playing the ME1 and ME2 love interests off of one another, as a dynamic in ME3, was mentioned in some developer chatter fairly early on, I believe. It's hard to imagine Miranda-Ashley not being a part of that, as they are the Alliance and Cerberus loyalists respectively. It's ME1 and ME2 in a nutshell, basically, when you put these two characters together.

I think we're all expect a Miranda/Ashley rivalry. They're antipodes in so many aspects, I can't see Bioware ignoring that potential.

Having said all that, a more extreme Miranda makeover would not surprise me. There's the "what uniform is she wearing?" question to begin with, and then I just think that messing around with Miranda's appearance would be a difficult temptation to resist. It's such a hotly debated topic already. So, fuel to the fire.

Her appearance as such isn't hotly debated, only her outfits. I woudn't be up in arms about a temporary scar, but I would dislike it nonetheless. The reasonwhy I'd dislike anything that mars Miranda's physical perfection is that I don't want yet another Aesop pushed down my throat. I thought I'd escaped that kind of thing with Miranda. Physical attractiveness is part of the package as far as I'm concerned, and I want to be able to appreciate it without, for a change, being told it's not important.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 octobre 2011 - 09:59 .

[Athayniel]

I'm wary of there being tension between the ME1 and ME2 LI. Especially a confrontation would seem contrived unless Shepard were leaving the ME2 LI to return to the ME1 LI. I took Horizon as a symbolic end of the relationship. The VS had moved on, now Shep had to choose whether to do the same. If they did then the VS can't really hold it against them. It's been two years. But as I said, if Shep returns to the ME1 LI in ME3 then I could see fireworks being the appropriate response.

[Ieldra]

Athayniel wrote...
I'm wary of there being tension between the ME1 and ME2 LI. Especially a confrontation would seem contrived unless Shepard were leaving the ME2 LI to return to the ME1 LI. I took Horizon as a symbolic end of the relationship. The VS had moved on, now Shep had to choose whether to do the same. If they did then the VS can't really hold it against them. It's been two years. But as I said, if Shep returns to the ME1 LI in ME3 then I could see fireworks being the appropriate response.

I was not talking about the romance (perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "rivalry") but about Miranda's and Ashleys personality and allegiance. Even if Miranda has left Cerberus, her opinion of the Alliance and the way things are done there probably hasn't improved much. I would like the tension between them to focus on that aspect and on their incompatible personalities..

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 octobre 2011 - 10:34 .

[Hillbillyshep]

My own personal hopes for the ME2 squaddies in ME3 goes this:
Samara and Thane: LotSB-style mission
Legion: Important character, should stay on the Normandy with Shep. Hopefully a permanent.
Grunt: Shep´s his battlemaster, so he should stick with him. A permanent and a LI would be awesome.
Jacob: I just can´t bring myself liking him and now since Vega... No.
Zaeed: I always kill him, so screw him.
Kasumi: After Miri and Jack, Kasumi is my third favorite human female squaddie (...) in ME2, so she should be in ME3 as temp at least or a LI.
Jack: I´l settle with Jack, if i don´t get Miri, but...

Miranda: She has the highest change to make a permanent squaddie-appearance in ME3, out of all the other ME2-introduced-squaddies and she´s my LI, so YES YES YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[UserForFun]

Am I the only one in the whole wide world that elected to save Kaidan instead of Ash..? I mean -- Kaidan is obedient, loyal, never questions orders, does not blindly follows his emotions, but usses his brain instead, he is also a -Human- biotic ( Rare ) and he also never fully tasted the flow of life; Never had family, never was part of a family, not many friends and so on.

Ashley is a common, incompetent soldier, questions the motives/actions of a -COMMANDING- officer, questions every given order coming from a -COMMANDING- officer even if it is simplistic ( Is like she's purposely attempting to irritate Shepard. I mean, how many times she was out of line..? ) she's racist ( I don't care about the xenophobia itself, however only a fool would refuse help ) she's impulsive and often completely blinded by her emotions, and has a martyr complex.

In my perspective, you're giving her what she desires by choosing Kaidan, and is the logical election as well. Save those wiling to live, not wiling to commit suicide.

[Ieldra]

@UserForFun:
Though my own games are balanced with regard to who was left on Virmire, I guess a great majority of players have chosen to save Ashley.

The reason we're discussing Miranda's and Ashley's possible clash here is that they're representative of ME2 and ME1, respectively, and they're so different in allegiance and personality that a clash is inevitable. Also, it's what you get for the default maleShep game (Ashley is alive by default in a maleShep game if you don't import an ME1 game). And, of course, they're the primary LIs in their respective games. So it's as close to a "canonical" clash as things can become.

Also, please don't reiterate the old "xenophobia" argument. Ashley is more of a human nationalist than a racist, and a mild one at that. That, and that she's impulsive and often ruled too much by her passions is among the reasons I prefer Miranda to her, but I like Ashley nonetheless.

As for Kaidan and Miranda, we have speculated that there might be some attraction between them if Miranda isn't with Shepard, but ME3 will likely not go there because it would take a long time for them to overcome their different allegiances.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 octobre 2011 - 11:14 .

[nitefyre410]

UserForFun wrote...

Am I the only one in the whole wide world that elected to save Kaidan instead of Ash..? I mean -- Kaidan is obedient, loyal, never questions orders, does not blindly follows his emotions, but usses his brain instead, he is also a -Human- biotic ( Rare ) and he also never fully tasted the flow of life; Never had family, never was part of a family, not many friends and so on.

Ashley is a common, incompetent soldier, questions the motives/actions of a -COMMANDING- officer, questions every given order coming from a -COMMANDING- officer even if it is simplistic ( Is like she's purposely attempting to irritate Shepard. I mean, how many times she was out of line..? ) she's racist ( I don't care about the xenophobia itself, however only a fool would refuse help ) she's impulsive and often completely blinded by her emotions, and has a martyr complex.

In my perspective, you're giving her what she desires by choosing Kaidan, and is the logical election as well. Save those wiling to live, not wiling to commit suicide.

 


Well Why you may ask because I thought Virmire was lazy and lame attempt at creating emotional impact  in the story that lacked emotional impact from the start.   It felt  tacked on, forced and pointless there was nothing shocking  or amazing about it - so I picked and thats it.  Matter fact Virmire is  getting dangerous close to Aerith death in FF7 terroritory for me  and I could  go for days about   that subject(Ha and I liked game).    

Alot of pepople  complain(And I being polite with my word usage here) about how  Ashley is Xenophobic . No she  is an Alliance Marine  on a top of the Line State of the Art Alliance Frigate  with a Turian about 30-40 years after the  First Contract  War and Krogan Mercenary that she does not know from   Larry,  Moe and Curly. Her reaction was perfectly natural  and expected.    

Eden Prime - Well  Eden Prime is club Med - hell it was a battle ready as Pearl Harbor on  Dec 6 - No body was expecting an attack  at Eden. Saren shows up with Soveriegn and Heretics on nice clear sunny day  and  BOOM Surpise attack - It was over before it started.

The  Talk on Religon - Seriously(This is no way directed at you User before i say it) but seriously  people need to grow the hell up  that was  rather tame  not forcing nothing down anyone throat about  Religon, Faith and unverise. There was no  Bible thumping, no evenangelically fire and brimstone preaching.   A perfectly mature rational discussion about  Faith, spirituality, and religon between two adults.       

Its same with Miranda  people  called her a "****" and everything else under sun for not falling at Shepards feet the moment  they meet.  When she had "You better Show me" Attitude  after meeting the Illusive Man.  Perfectly naturaly - she is her own women god forebid she does not throw her panties at  Shepard the first day they meet or drop, spread and say  "Take me Shepard I'm yours" at the sight of the man.  


*ahem* 

Nothing here was directly to personally towards you  User just kinda how about feel about some of the arguments against Miranda and Ashley I have seen here in my time on BSN.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 09 octobre 2011 - 12:00 .

[Melra]

I always choose Kaidan, Ashley would be my LI, if I saw reason to play ME game after ME2, that didn't have Miri in them, but I still choose Kaidan. I prefer him as a squaddie and he's the only good bromance in the game for me.

I think Virmire was fine, it did have emotional impact on me, those who whine usually whine about the inability to save everyone. Well ''buhuu'' for you den.

Would I like similar scenario to be in ME3? Of course not, I don't like losing characters that I like and if I could leave behind a squaddie that I didn't like, then it would be a waste anyway. Still it doesn't make it a bad ''tool'' to use.

[Ashanasu]

How did this thread get to 650+ pages?

[nitefyre410]

Melrache wrote...

I always choose Kaidan, Ashley would be my LI, if I saw reason to play ME game after ME2, that didn't have Miri in them, but I still choose Kaidan. I prefer him as a squaddie and he's the only good bromance in the game for me.

I think Virmire was fine, it did have emotional impact on me, those who whine usually whine about the inability to save everyone. Well ''buhuu'' for you den.

Would I like similar scenario to be in ME3? Of course not, I don't like losing characters that I like and if I could leave behind a squaddie that I didn't like, then it would be a waste anyway. Still it doesn't make it a bad ''tool'' to use.

 

Never whined about saving everyone - I said it was Lazy  and poor design. Trying to force something emotionaly impacting into a story that lacked emotional impact from the start.  It really has nothing to do with saving everyone at all - it was poor and  just when I find out what a Reaper was... dispite Soveriegns AWESOME dialouge... I was laughing my head off going. "Giant, Talking, Robotic, Space, Squid"  - poor design. Really  Bioware has done this before the Archdemon in   Dragon Age the build up and I get ...a decaying  Dragon that is was noy  even that terrorifying.  Once again poor design in my opinion. 

[Melra]

Well, if you don't like it, then don't play it. I didn't have any problems.

Edit: Anyhow, love the Miri+Ori pic, though I first thought it was Shepard and Miri, but some sisterly luv works as well. I wonder, who'd they use to VA her, if Oriana came back for ME3.

Modifié par Melrache, 09 octobre 2011 - 12:35 .

[nitefyre410]

Melrache wrote...

Well, if you don't like it, then don't play it. I didn't have any problems.

Edit: Anyhow, love the Miri+Ori pic, though I first thought it was Shepard and Miri, but some sisterly luv works as well. I wonder, who'd they use to VA her, if Oriana came back for ME3.

 

Never said I didn't Like it but I do have think that some of the design choices were poor. Does break the game for  me No..  There are things I don't like that Bioware did  and I think they could have done BETTER. 


One of the Better things would be bringing Oriana back and having her  play a large part in Miranda Character developement. 

[jtav]

I've shifted to saving Ash, mostly because I think it makes a better story for her to be a Spectre. I did delete my romance saves because I'm just not invested enough to stay faithful. I'm invested enough in Miranda as a character to at least try for fidelity.

[Collider]

I saved Kaidan and have not yet saved Ashley.
I view Ashley as being vastly less useful than Kaidan in almost every way.
Her religion didn't bother me, what bothered me is the engineered drama when she asked if Shepard had a problem with her believing.

[nitefyre410]

Collider wrote...

I saved Kaidan and have not yet saved Ashley.
I view Ashley as being vastly less useful than Kaidan in almost every way.
Her religion didn't bother me, what bothered me is the engineered drama when she asked if Shepard had a problem with her believing.

 


Eh  - Bioware and video game writing sometimes you have to delete and purge from memory for the sake of greater enjoyment of the game.  

This only works to an extent though.