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[jtav]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think she'll be filling the same kind of role as Jack: serving on a ship of an organization hostile to her, but there our of necessity.

And therein lies the sweet, irresistable irony...

It is delicious, isn't it? It's why I think she may be kept in the brig when not on missions, over Shep's objections.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think she'll be filling the same kind of role as Jack: serving on a ship of an organization hostile to her, but there our of necessity.

And therein lies the sweet, irresistable irony...

It is delicious, isn't it? It's why I think she may be kept in the brig when not on missions, over Shep's objections.

That would mean someone on the ship is in command of Shepard's decisions. I very much doubt it.

BTW, why the hell are you so determined to make things difficult and demeaning for Miranda?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:15 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
BTW, why the hell are you so determined to make things difficult and demeaning for Miranda?

So her triumph is that much sweeter in the end? (Just a thought )

I think what I'd most like to see is a bruised, battered, maybe somewhat mutilated Miranda, though in a reasonably attractive way , fighting for her place in the world as part of this crew of mostly Alliance types that despise her...

And succeeding in the end. Probably dependant on player choice, of course

Modifié par flemm, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:22 .

[jtav]

Ah true. I was thinking more of "locking her up" more for her own safety because of her Cerberus connection and the reaction of the crew to that. As for difficult, I admire her rather considerable virtues but I'd despise her in RL and probably be calling for a nice, long prison sentence myself. Having things go harder for her soothes my conscience about giving her a happy ending.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
That would mean someone on the ship is in command of Shepard's decisions.

For the brig, yeah. So that specific scenario is probably unlikely, unless she's already there when you show up on the Normandy.

I do think that Miranda mostly spending her time in the bowels of the ship is plausible, though. Possibly even where Jack was in ME2, give or take. To underline the reversal of fortune.

Modifié par flemm, 09 octobre 2011 - 06:47 .

[jtav]

Yeah, I think that's likely. She's going to go down in the world. The VS takes her old role. She takes Jack's (though not an exact match). And hopefully, she ends higher than ever before. Good storytelling that.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Yeah, I think that's likely. She's going to go down in the world. The VS takes her old role. She takes Jack's (though not an exact match). And hopefully, she ends higher than ever before. Good storytelling that.

I love that kind of story arc. For those Star Trek fans out there who ever got into DS9, Kira was a big favorite of mine. She was this terrorist/resistance fighter who was involved with chasing an oppressive occupying force off her homeworld. Then, in one of the last story arcs for the character in the later seasons, the empire that once occupied her home planet is conquered in turn by a more powerful foe. And she has to go there to organise a guerilla/resistance movement on behalf of her old enemies. Beautiful stuff, really. 

Modifié par flemm, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:01 .

[Ieldra]

Hmm..... I dislike stories where the character loses her ability to act on her own initiative.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:35 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hmm..... I dislike stories where the character loses her ability to act on her own initiative.

If I may be so bold, to what point, precisely, were you referring?

[drwells123]

jtav wrote...
Yeah, I think that's likely. She's going to go down in the world. The VS takes her old role. She takes Jack's (though not an exact match). And hopefully, she ends higher than ever before. Good storytelling that.

Yes, putting our favorite characters through hell is how we show them we love them  Fluff is great, but I doubt anyone would read it if the characters hadn't already been developed in some other setting where there's conflict, hardship, etc.

There's a deleted scene from the second Terminator movie that shows Sarah Connor being tazered and clubbed by her prison guards (which is why she returns the favor to one of them later). The writers said they put it in there just to give her more obstacles to overcome. I imagine they dropped it when they realized the rest of the movie was more than sufficient evidence of her badassery.

flemm wrote...
I love that kind of story arc. For those Star Trek fans out there who ever got into DS9, Kira was a big favorite of mine. She was this terrorist/resistance fighter who was involved with chasing an oppressive occupying force off her homeworld. Then, in one of the last story arcs for the character in the later seasons, the empire that once occupied her home planet is conquered in turn by a more powerful foe. And she has to go there to organise a guerilla/resistance movement on behalf of her old enemies. Beautiful stuff, really. 

Or the episode in the first season where she meets a former camp commandant and war criminal...and he turns out to be the commandant's filing clerk, impersonating him and expecting to be executed, to expunge his guilt over not trying to stop the atrocities. That's the first time she realizes there are people among the oppressors who are as unhappy about their history as she is.

In that vein I think it was a missed opportunity that a sole survivor Shepard can't have a running argument with Miranda or Jacob about Akuze (and even better if one or both of them was somehow involved, even indirectly).

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Hmm..... I dislike stories where the character loses her ability to act on her own initiative.

If I may be so bold, to what point, precisely, were you referring?

Like this: If Miranda is forced by the circumstances to work for people she doesn't respect, that's one thing. If she's forced *by* those people, however, she doesn't retain any initiative and is practically imprisoned. That's a scenario I dislike in any story, even more so if it affects my favorite character.

I already have an axe to grind with the Alliance. If their representatives start to put pressure on any of my ex-Cerberus people, they can walk out the airlock.

I'm all for Miranda being captured by Cerberus and I don't want to imagine what they might do to her off-screen before she can get out, but at least there she doesn't have to pretend they're allies. And she absolutely must get away from the situation mostly on her own.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 octobre 2011 - 07:59 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Like this: If Miranda is forced by the circumstances to work for people she doesn't respect, that's one thing. If she's forced *by* those people, however, she doesn't retain any initiative and is practically imprisoned. That's a scenario I dislike in any story, even more so if it affects my favorite character.

I see. Well, I think the former is much more likely than the latter. Shepard is allied with Miranda, after all. I'm sure you'll be able to roleplay the strength of that allegiance either way, both to the Alliance and to Miranda. But it won't be a question of Miranda being forced to do anything against her will.

I also think at least one other crew member might throw her/his support behind Miranda. Like Garrus, for example. Due to Miranda going through the relay with them, and the VS dissing Shep. So you might end up with a more divided crew than anything else. Something like that. With Liara occupying the middle ground.

Modifié par flemm, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:00 .

[Ieldra]

Yes, I hope we'll be able to roleplay the mutual loyalty between Miranda and Shepard. I also hope we'll get some of our old SR2 crew back. The only problem is that they can die on the SM and I can't see Bioware putting much effort into minor characters.

Garrus...hmm. Isn't he the one who objects to Miranda leading the Fire Team because half of the team doesn't trust her (if Jack is dead at that point)? I'd rather say it's Liara, who has a past with Miranda that includes a successful operation, and Garrus occupying the middle ground.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:07 .

[jtav]

Well, Garrus and Miranda seem to harbor an intense dislike for each other, so Liara is more likely to be sympathetic. And my (unlikely as it may be) Boxed Crook scenario has Miranda bargaining for her freedom. But I consider it least likely of the three possible scenarios. Far more likely she'll be either captured by or working for Cerberus.

[flemm]

RE: Garrus or Liara, it's true it might go down that way. Though I actual proposed the Garrus example partly because it would be a little surprising. In-story reason would be that the events of the CB, defeating the human reaper together, surviving the suicide mission, etc., changed Garrus's mind about Miranda. While the arrest of Shepard, the trial, etc. had the opposite effect on his opinion of the VS/the Alliance.

It would basically be an extension of the "where were you when we were risking our lives to stop the Collectors?" perspective.

Modifié par flemm, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:15 .

[jtav]

I want it to be Liara. Surprise, surprise.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I want it to be Liara. Surprise, surprise.

I don't want it to be Garrus. Surprise, surprise

And of course he's dead in some games....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:19 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I want it to be Liara. Surprise, surprise.

Indeed, it comes as quite a shock

The thing with Liara is that, yes, she has worked with Miranda, but she also has little reason to distrust the VS. And she wasn't there for Horizon, or for the suicide mission.

Also, her role as the SB puts her in a position of likely neutrality, I would think. It's a role that needs to be stable, probably the most stable of any in the game (among squad members).

Modifié par flemm, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:22 .

[jtav]

I don't think we'll see much in the way of interaction between ME2 squad mates because that's two variables to be checked for.

[flemm]

Well, the "dead in some games" thing is something that has to be accounted for in any event. So, hypothetically, one difference between an imported game with, say Garrus and Miranda alive, and a game where they are dead, is you don't get that other faction of the crew.

In that scenario, Garrus distrusts the VS regardless, as does Miranda. So most of the interaction would actually be between them and the more stable characters, i.e. VS, Vega, Liara.

I think it's within the realm of possible scenarios.

Modifié par flemm, 09 octobre 2011 - 08:33 .

[jtav]

And more images:

[jtav]

And to romance or not to romance? I keep going back and forth.

[flemm]

drwells123 wrote...
Or the episode in the first season where she meets a former camp commandant and war criminal...and he turns out to be the commandant's filing clerk, impersonating him and expecting to be executed, to expunge his guilt over not trying to stop the atrocities. That's the first time she realizes there are people among the oppressors who are as unhappy about their history as she is.

Duet is a great episode, no doubt. There's a lot of really excellent writing for Kira on that show. Miranda has always reminded me a bit of her.

Superficially, they're not really all that similar, of course. There's no element of genetic engineering or anything. I think it's the rather unusual combo of a morally ambiguous heroine, who's done some pretty dark and brutal stuff, but who doesn't have to apologise or be saved or anything. Tough, but also emotional, and sexy. She's a leader, and has ideals and a cause, though the ideals and the cause evolve over time, leading to a strong character arc...

All that good stuff  

Of course, it's not really a fair comparison, due to the limitations on the writing in a game like this. But I like both characters for a lot of the same reasons.

Modifié par flemm, 10 octobre 2011 - 12:13 .

[jtav]

Just an observation: over on LiveJournal, the theory seems to be that Miranda won't have cut ties with Cerberus in ME3. My initial thought is that the commenterss didn't get her resignation line, but I'm throwing it out there.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Just an observation: over on LiveJournal, the theory seems to be that Miranda won't have cut ties with Cerberus in ME3. My initial thought is that the commenterss didn't get her resignation line, but I'm throwing it out there.

Well, it's certainly a possibility. This is basically why confirming any type of squad status for Miranda (even temporary), is more of a spoiler than for anyone else. She's realistically the only one whose status as an ally is even the slightest bit in doubt. 

I think she'll be an ally, but I think we may not get any specifics until the game is released. Where we might get a twist, I suppose, would be if stats show that Miranda survives unloyal in a significant percentage of games (which is more likely for her than for a lot of other characters). That's where you would get the Miranda boss fight scenario. Which would be pretty awesome, to be truthful.

Modifié par flemm, 10 octobre 2011 - 01:03 .