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[CptData]

jtav wrote...

Well, I'd prefer to know bad news now, to reduce stress.

And if there's anything I can do to see that Miranda retains her ideals and ruthlessness from ME2, I'll do it. Nit one step more towards Paragon for me. I'm drowning in Paragon LIs as is.

Dunno why, but Miranda won't go down the paragon road. She's renagon for sure - and will be in ME3. Can't see any problems with a paragon!Shep having renagon!Miranda as LI, so that's fine for me.
Funny enough, I don't have a renegade!Shepard and can't see him having ANY LI (not even my main LI). Miranda is renagon, but don't work well as a renegade character.

And no, I don't know why. It doesn't fit to her imo.

[Xilizhra]

So do you think that Miranda will really want to take over Cerberus?

[jtav]

I certainly hope so, yes.

[Dariansarr]

Just like Liara takes over the Shadow Broker

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
So do you think that Miranda will really want to take over Cerberus?

Why wouldn't she? She could shape it according to her ideals instead of TIM's. She always worked for a cause bigger than herself, and here's her chance to affect things in a big way.

Yes, I certainly hope she'll get the chance.

[Ieldra]

CptData wrote...
Depends on taste, I guess. My image of Miranda is a bit different, Ieldra2 - in my universe, she IS fighting for human advancement, but not in a way to make mankind more powerful than other races. That's not her primary agenda - and it's not the one of my Shepard.

Human advancement is a vague concept. For me it includes technological advancement, advancement of any human's individual capabilities (transhumanism) and political power. For everyone, the limit where the desire for power starts to cross over into evil lies where the methods needed to achieve it cross a moral event horizon. This side of your moral event horizon, wherever it may lie, power is, as a rule, desirable, for everyone and every faction. To wish for an equal basis is to wish for mediocrity. We always wish for superiority, and if we are content with an equal basis, it's because most often, the cost of getting more - in reputation and resources - is too high. I think Miranda would see things from this perspective.

But yeah, since everyone can have his/her own idea about the ME-universe and every character, I can see why you think so. It works for me, I just like "my" Miranda a bit less pro!human. Same when it comes to her past - some guys believe she had numerous one night stands because she couldn't get in touch with romantic feelings. I believe she had far less one night stands and most likely a boyfriend or two. However, she's not inexperienced in sex and such, not a bit, and she's used to use her body as weapon and goal for every man she wants to manipulate.

I have outlined what "pro-human" means for me. I'd like to know what it means for you.

As for Miranda's sexual experience, I think Miranda enjoys recreational sex. Love needn't come into it, but neither is any problem with romantic feelings the reason she enjoys it. It's not an escape mechanism, it's just something she likes. How "numerous" her lovers were is of no concern to me and I don't understand at all why people get riled up about it. In the end, if you agree she's sexually experience we're on the same (vague) page regarding the facts, if not necessarily their interpretation. 

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
So do you think that Miranda will really want to take over Cerberus?

Why wouldn't she? She could shape it according to her ideals instead of TIM's. She always worked for a cause bigger than herself, and here's her chance to affect things in a big way.

Yes, I certainly hope she'll get the chance.

I'm not sure... what TIM's motives are now seems unclear, but the Cerberus army seems to be heavily implied to indoctrinated, whether it be to the Reapers' will or TIM's. It wouldn't be like Liara taking over an intact network by virtue of no one knowing its leader's true identity; Miranda might only have some business contacts and research left when the whole business is done. Would that be enough? And if it was, would I have a chance to stop her from doing the same thing again?

This side of your moral event horizon, wherever it may lie, power is, as a rule, desirable, for everyone and every faction. To wish for an equal basis is to wish for mediocrity.

I can accept mediocrity if it's what's necessary for the greatest possible good for all.

[flemm]

Re: Cerberus/TIM in ME3, to follow the Loghain analogy, which may be fairly apt in certain respects, it's entirely possible that TIM is no more siding with the Reapers than Loghain with the darkspawn. He just wants to be the one who defeats them, and he wants to be the man in charge when the dust settles.

That fits the TIM 100%, certainly much better than siding with the Reapers does. So, the issue would be methods, and the degree to which TIM is willing to sacrifice the other sentient races, as well as perhaps much of humanity, in order to make sure the war ends how he wants it to end.

So, you have this situation where Shepard is going around trying to recruit allies, and TIM opposes her/him because he doesn't want victory to be obtained in that manner, he sees Shepard as his primary rival, etc.

That's the scenario where you would get a showdown with TIM maybe 75% of the way through the game, and either kill him, or convince him that, in fact, Shepard was the one for the job all along. It fits. Doubtless it won't work exactly like that, but I could see it unfolding along those lines.


Edit: In passing, it looks like speculation earlier about that cover art picturing MP avatars was probably accurate:

Chris Priestly wrote...

Which characters can I play in co-op multiplayer? Can I play as Commander Shepard?

• Commander Shepard’s part in the war will take place in the single-player campaign, as will that of other beloved characters in the franchise such as Garrus, Ashley, and Liara…these characters do not appear in the multiplayer missions. In multiplayer, players will create custom characters to fight on different and unique fronts in the war. This will include the ability to play as favorites like Turians, Krogans, Asari and more… each with their own unique set of abilities.

Modifié par flemm, 11 octobre 2011 - 03:28 .

[Xilizhra]

Loghain's ideology was never really in conflict with the Warden's, though; the whole conflict was a result of Loghain's paranoia about Orlais, and when he realized he was wrong about that, he had no problem with submitting to the Warden's agenda. I can't see TIM admitting he was wrong about anything, ever, or submitting to anyone.

[flemm]

Xilizhra wrote...

Loghain's ideology was never really in conflict with the Warden's, though; the whole conflict was a result of Loghain's paranoia about Orlais, and when he realized he was wrong about that, he had no problem with submitting to the Warden's agenda. I can't see TIM admitting he was wrong about anything, ever, or submitting to anyone.

Maybe so. It's not going to work exactly like Loghain anyway. But as an analogy, it might be applicable. Especially regarding TIM's motives, and why he is opposing Shepard.

[jtav]

I have to ask: anybody planning to make Miranda for MP, so far as possible?

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I have to ask: anybody planning to make Miranda for MP, so far as possible?

Since I suspect (a) it won't be possible, and ( we'll not be able to roleplay much in MP, if at all, I don't see the point in attempting it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 octobre 2011 - 03:43 .

[CptData]

Ieldra2 wrote...
*snip*

I have outlined what "pro-human" means for me. I'd like to know what it means for you.

That's kinda difficult to explain. If we had a chance to live in a time where mankind has met aliens already, I'd say we need to find a role for mankind in this new community. In ME this role is under development and got through several stages - first contact war - contact to Citadel - first human Spectre - member of the Council etc. Also mankind is rivaling with the Turians in military matters.
Basically, I'd like to fight for that new role in the galactic community. And I don't want to start a war or two to achieve that goal, means, aliens shouldn't be seen as enemies, but as possible friends and allies.
Being on par with old Council races is good enough to me.

As for Miranda's sexual experience, I think Miranda enjoys recreational sex. Love needn't come into it, but neither is any problem with romantic feelings the reason she enjoys it. It's not an escape mechanism, it's just something she likes. How "numerous" her lovers were is of no concern to me and I don't understand at all why people get riled up about it. In the end, if you agree she's sexually experience we're on the same (vague) page regarding the facts, if not necessarily their interpretation. 

Hmm, dunno here. Actually, I just dislike the idea of a woman (or man) having sex just for recreation, not because it's great or out of love. Yeah, must be something from my R/L, I refuse to do that one-night stuff. My greatest problem with Miranda as LI is, that everything could turn out as another "one night stand" in ME3. Shepard deserves better, Miranda too. Dunno if pure Miranda fans feel the same.
However, a Miranda-Shepard relationship won't be boring - both have their history, Miranda seems to be decisive, when it comes to physical actions - I'm just wondering if she can become ONE man's woman. Or if she doesn't want to give up freedom to choose her partners at wish.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Since I suspect (a) it won't be possible, and ( we'll not be able to roleplay much in MP, if at all, I don't see the point in attempting it.

Well, her basic character model might be available. And her powers. So, you might be able to come pretty close in certain respects. Might be something I'd try for the fun of it, I suppose, though, as you say, character will not matter in MP.

[nitefyre410]

Xilizhra wrote...

So do you think that Miranda will really want to take over Cerberus?

  

Because its would be a great CMOA  seeing Miranda sitting in  TIM charr having outwitted, out manilupated  and out fought both  TIM and her father. Then cue Oriana(sister) and Jacob(FIrst real friend as he has never turned on her) flanking. Thus in brillant stroke  showing her to have a caring side, resolving her daddy issues AND showing  that she is not to be F-with because she takes down one  not only a rather power paramalitary  orgnization , Large interstella buisness.  

Why won't this happen(not that I don't like BIoware) I just don't think they can pull it off 

[flemm]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Because its would be a great CMOA  seeing Miranda sitting in  TIM charr having outwitted, out manilupated  and out fought both  TIM and her father. Then cue Oriana(sister) and Jacob(FIrst real friend as he has never turned on her) flanking. Thus in brillant stroke  showing her to have a caring side, resolving her daddy issues AND showing  that she is not to be F-with because she takes down one  not only a rather power paramalitary  orgnization , Large interstella buisness.  

There is only one problem with your scenario.

It is so full of epic win that the game would explode...

Reality just never ends up being this awesome

Modifié par flemm, 11 octobre 2011 - 04:03 .

[nitefyre410]

flemm wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Because its would be a great CMOA  seeing Miranda sitting in  TIM charr having outwitted, out manilupated  and out fought both  TIM and her father. Then cue Oriana(sister) and Jacob(FIrst real friend as he has never turned on her) flanking. Thus in brillant stroke  showing her to have a caring side, resolving her daddy issues AND showing  that she is not to be F-with because she takes down one  not only a rather power paramalitary  orgnization , Large interstella buisness.  

There is only one problem with your scenario.

It is so full of epic win that the game would explode...

Reality just never ends up being this awesome

 


Which makes wonder can  BIoware really pull EPIC off... 

[jtav]

I think TIW or assuming her father's mantle are the natural conclusions of her arc. TIW would be turning Cerberus into what TIM promised it would be--an organization to ensure the safety and political/technological superiority of humanity (think the US in the decades after WWII not the Roman Empire) Of course, I'm sure players could nudge her a bit toward being more like TIM or Cerberus becoming part of the Alliance. Taking over her father's empire has the despised, rejected prodigal who was told she could never measure up returning in triumph. And again, redeeming a flawed vision of human advancement that sees individuals as no more than tools. Miranda will sacrifice others, but she'll put herself on the "expendable" list too. And that's what separates her from TIM and her father.

[flemm]

I don't deny your logic or vision at all. There's a lot there that I would love to see. And I think we may see some of it. But probably not all.
I'm optimistic about Miranda's role in the game, but within certain bounds

Miranda's father is a big wildcard, I think. We might never see him, or he might turn out to be important. Maybe a key figure with regard to Cerberus' connection to the alliance. Could go either way.

It's also possible that a lot of what fans here want doesn't really line up with what more casual fans might want to see, or what bioware has in mind. There's a scenario where Miranda is in the game a lot, and on the squad full time, and a lot of the more frequent posters here hate every second of it.

It would make me a bit sad to see it. But I wouldn't rule it out. I think Miranda's appeal is probably very different to some of her more hardcore fans than to the broader player base.

Modifié par flemm, 11 octobre 2011 - 04:37 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
Because its would be a great CMOA  seeing Miranda sitting in  TIM charr having outwitted, out manilupated  and out fought both  TIM and her father. Then cue Oriana(sister) and Jacob(FIrst real friend as he has never turned on her) flanking. Thus in brillant stroke  showing her to have a caring side, resolving her daddy issues AND showing  that she is not to be F-with because she takes down one  not only a rather power paramalitary  orgnization , Large interstella buisness.  

There is only one problem with your scenario.

It is so full of epic win that the game would explode...

Reality just never ends up being this awesome

You mean not even fictional reality?

But yes, the image of Miranda in TIM's chair makes me drool. And not primarily in a sexual sense (though it would add greatly to her sex appeal). That scenario would be so impossibly epic....if the game won't give us us that, I'm sure it will materialize in a fanfic.

I'm not sure, though, if Miranda would want Oriana on her space station. It appears to me she doesn't want her sister to know what she does. 

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
You mean not even fictional reality?

Yes

[jtav]

I doubt the casual fan wants more than T&A and being useful in combat. Those epilogues will be for the hardcore fan.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I doubt the casual fan wants more than T&A and being useful in combat.

I think you're being a little hard on the casual fan there. Though maybe in part. What I meant more was that some players who are attached to the character might just want her around a lot, allied with them, supporting them, in combat and otherwise.

Miranda being an independantly powerful individual at the end is something I'd like to see, of course. And I do think we might see it.

Modifié par flemm, 11 octobre 2011 - 04:47 .

[Ieldra]

LOL, if all those scenarios materialize, Shepard's team will rule the galaxy. Liara as the Shadow Broker, Miranda as the mysterious Illusive Woman, Tali as Admiral of the Migrant Fleet... where does it end?

[Xilizhra]

Maybe we can merge Cerberus' material resources into the Shadow Broker network. Is that a fair compromise?
Miranda could perhaps lead the SB army.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 octobre 2011 - 04:53 .