82210 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
I'll admit that Redemption's quality was dubious in that regard, but if we look at her changing over two years, I don't think it's that unrealistic.

Oh, don't get me started on "Redemption" where Liara starts acting like Jack (KABLOOM DESTRUCT-IONNN).

[MisterJB]

So, does anyone have Miranda in a sexy devil costume or something?

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I'll admit that Redemption's quality was dubious in that regard, but if we look at her changing over two years, I don't think it's that unrealistic.

Oh, don't get me started on "Redemption" where Liara starts acting like Jack (KABLOOM DESTRUCT-IONNN).

Probably it'd be more realistic that she be that broken if Shepard romanced her.

[jtav]

The thing about Miranda working under Liara is well, why? The SB is a pan-galactic organization. Miranda's interests are a stronger humanity. They may make common cause but they are at odds on fundamental precepts.. And it wouldn't be a very interesting relationship in game. Straight-up boss and employee.

[Labrev]

The number of the beast!!! 

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

The thing about Miranda working under Liara is well, why? The SB is a pan-galactic organization. Miranda's interests are a stronger humanity. They may make common cause but they are at odds on fundamental precepts.. And it wouldn't be a very interesting relationship in game. Straight-up boss and employee.

I mostly did it because I didn't know if Miranda would want to work with the Alliance. Do you think that'd fit her better?

[jtav]

She could always work on her own, making common cause with other organizations as advantageous.

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

She could always work on her own, making common cause with other organizations as advantageous.

I'm... there's this Discworld quote that reminded me of this situation: "You could trust Nobby with your life, although you'd be daft to trust him with a dollar." I trust Miranda insofar as she'll have my back in combat and will work with me against the Reapers, and won't be sucked too deeply into TIM's web. But I don't trust her, or anyone, to form an independent covert pro-human-dominance organization without it going bad eventually.

[MisterJB]

But Liara as the Shadow Broker is perfectly cool, right?

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

But Liara as the Shadow Broker is perfectly cool, right?

The Shadow Broker network is much, much more neutral in purpose. It's just about information flow and lacks a political agenda, or particular common cause among its membership.

[jtav]

"Give me ten minutes and I could start a war." Not to mention that very neutrality will require a certain callousness, if Liara even stays neutral, which I doubt.

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

"Give me ten minutes and I could start a war." Not to mention that very neutrality will require a certain callousness, if Liara even stays neutral, which I doubt.

I'm not sure how it'll go, but I doubt it'll be doomed.
Of course, perhaps this is just because I'd have a far greater personal influence on Liara than on Miranda, who while a friend, is much more fundamentally separated from me than Liara.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

But Liara as the Shadow Broker is perfectly cool, right?

The Shadow Broker network is much, much more neutral in purpose. It's just about information flow and lacks a political agenda, or particular common cause among its membership.

You're using double standards, Xilizhra. An independent secret information network like the SB's is just as likely to "go bad" as a pro-human covert ops organization, though in different ways maybe. It all depends on who sits at the top.

My problem is that there isn't any human faction in the galaxy I'd want Miranda to be accountable to. So as far as I'm concerned, she must create a faction that represents her vision of human advancement herself. In time, it might even grow into a regular political entity with a covert arm, and Miranda would lead that covert arm, but at the moment there is no candidate for such a  thing.

[Xilizhra]

You're using double standards, Xilizhra. An independent secret information network like the SB's is just as likely to "go bad" as a pro-human covert ops organization, though in different ways maybe. It all depends on who sits at the top.

Then I suppose it comes down to me trusting Liara more than Miranda.

My problem is that there isn't any human faction in the galaxy I'd want Miranda to be accountable to. So as far as I'm concerned, she must create a faction that represents her vision of human advancement herself. In time, it might even grow into a regular political entity with a covert arm, and Miranda would lead that covert arm, but at the moment there is no candidate for such a thing.

Why would the Alliance not be suitable?

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

jtav wrote...
"Give me ten minutes and I could start a war." Not to mention that very neutrality will require a certain callousness, if Liara even stays neutral, which I doubt.

I'm not sure how it'll go, but I doubt it'll be doomed.
Of course, perhaps this is just because I'd have a far greater personal influence on Liara than on Miranda, who while a friend, is much more fundamentally separated from me than Liara.

You mean in your headcanon. Well, if you bring that into the debate I might mention that while Liara is a friend, she's much more fundamentally separated from me than Miranda. Your preference for Liara and the asari in general is well known, but it doesn't count as an argument in this debate because it's just a preference..

[jtav]

And that's fine. But don't assume your distrust of Miranda should dictate any game but your own. I trust them both.

And I want her to have power in her own right.

[flemm]

Xilizhra wrote...
The Shadow Broker network is much, much more neutral in purpose. It's just about information flow and lacks a political agenda, or particular common cause among its membership.

Its main purpose seems to have historically been assuring the power of the SB. That's not neutrality, it's standard power lust. Under Liara, those resources will undoubtedly be devoted to defeating the Reapers. But beyond that imminent conflict, it's anyone's guess, really.

If anything, in order to darken Liara's character a bit, she is written as being tempted by power itself, and the potential to abuse it. So, I'm not sure at this point how trustworthy she would really be.

Miranda has made her share of mistakes, but she's always been an idealist primarily, as far as her goals are concerned. Ruthless in pursuit of those goals, but that is a somewhat different thing.

Modifié par flemm, 11 octobre 2011 - 06:38 .

[Xilizhra]

You mean in your headcanon. Well, if you bring that into the debate I might mention that while Liara is a friend, she's much more fundamentally separated from me than Miranda. Your preference for Liara and the asari in general is well known, but it doesn't count as an argument in this debate because it's just a preference..

Oh, certainly. I don't doubt you'd have more personal influence over Miranda than Liara in your own game, given that you romance her. Perhaps you'd be safer in giving her her own organization.

[Athayniel]

MisterJB wrote...

Then just build her own. After all, she'll be the richest woman in the Galaxy after taking over the entirety of her father's empire and there's never shortage of humans willing to fight for the race.
Hey, if you can make assumptions about ME3, I can too.
Besides, personally, I'll try to keep as much of Cerberus intact as possible. If I had my way, the only one who would die would be TIM.

Just curious, but where has it been described that Miranda's father is the richest man in the galaxy? I only remember her describing him as 'wealthy'. *edit* Oh, you're being a little facetious. I get it. The sentence just popped out at me, sorry about that.

Modifié par Athayniel, 11 octobre 2011 - 06:42 .

[jtav]

Actually, I don't want to influence Miranda much. I like her Lazarus Station personality.

[flemm]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

The number of the beast!!! 

LoL. At first I was like WTF?

But now I get it.

[Athayniel]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

The number of the beast!!! 

*puts on his nerdy specs*
The real number of the beast is actually 616. Mistranslation from the Hebrew.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Why would the Alliance not be suitable?

Speaking for myself, the problem is that the Alliance has to justify its actions to the Citadel council, for example the AI research in "Ascension".
By being free of ties to the Alliance, Miranda's organization can do what is necessary to protect and advance the human race while the Alliance continues on being the poster boy of humanity and a blunt object.
That way, if one of the New Cerberus projects is ever discovered and it goes against Citadel regulamentations, the Council can't impose sanction on humanity for it, like they tried to in "Ascension".

Athayniel wrote...
Just curious, but where has it been described that Miranda's father is the richest man in the galaxy? I only remember her describing him as 'wealthy'. *edit* Oh, you're being a little facetious. I get it. The sentence just popped out at me, sorry about that.

I was actually referring to the Eclipse mercenary who appelidates Mr. Lawson of "the richest guy in the Galaxy". during Miri's LM.
The accuracy of that statement is, obviously, debatable. After all, Shepard would have no problem identifying him after that, would he?

Modifié par MisterJB, 11 octobre 2011 - 06:50 .

[Xilizhra]

Speaking for myself, the problem is that the Alliance has to justify its actions to the Citadel council, for example the AI research in "Ascension".
By being free of ties to the Alliance, Miranda's organization can do what is necessary to protect and advance the human race while the Alliance continues on being the poster boy of humanity and a blunt object.
That way, if one of the New Cerberus projects is ever discovered and it goes against Citadel regulamentations, the Council can't blame humanity for it.

I personally believe that the regulations are there for a reason, and that if the Alliance would have to go outside them to accomplish something, then that something is likely as not to be something not good at all.

[jtav]

The Council is hidebound and corrupt in its own way. The regulations are there to protect the Council.