82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Actually, I don't want to influence Miranda much. I like her Lazarus Station personality.

Me too, but I guess we're a minority. Perhaps we'll have to influence her against a general trend Bioware will take with her in ME3. 

[jtav]

And now I think I'm going to Gibb my game and kill the Coumcil in my romance game.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Me too, but I guess we're a minority.

I wouldn't say that exactly. I think most people who like Miranda like both the efficient, competant side of the character, as well as the emotional side. Main difference is more subtle: has Miranda changed in some fundamental way over the course of the game (partly due to player action/involvement), or has she always been this way, and the player just finds out more about her along the way?

I think the material in the game actually supports either interpretation, and was probably designed that way, though not in so many words.

Modifié par flemm, 11 octobre 2011 - 07:03 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
I personally believe that the regulations are there for a reason,

Indeed. To perpetuate the power of the Council

and that if the Alliance would have to go outside them to accomplish something, then that something is likely as not to be something not good at all.

Untrue. Take Project Overlord, for example. Obviously, it went against Citadel regulations. However, had it suceeded, humanity would have a private army of synthetics.
What was the Turian's first reaction when they met humanity? Try to forces us into becoming a client race. What is the race with the least amount allowed of Dreadnaugths? Us.
Humanity needs to protect itself.

Modifié par MisterJB, 11 octobre 2011 - 07:02 .

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Speaking for myself, the problem is that the Alliance has to justify its actions to the Citadel council, for example the AI research in "Ascension".
By being free of ties to the Alliance, Miranda's organization can do what is necessary to protect and advance the human race while the Alliance continues on being the poster boy of humanity and a blunt object.
That way, if one of the New Cerberus projects is ever discovered and it goes against Citadel regulamentations, the Council can't blame humanity for it.

I personally believe that the regulations are there for a reason, and that if the Alliance would have to go outside them to accomplish something, then that something is likely as not to be something not good at all.

Yikes. Status quo bias at its best! It's exactly that attitude I want to break, and as long as humanity hasn't got enough political clout to change the legislation, a covert organisation is the only way to do it. Maybe if the old Council is dead things will change a little... but I guess that's another scenario you'll never see.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 octobre 2011 - 07:08 .

[Xilizhra]

Untrue. Take Project Overlord, for example. Obviously, it went against Citadel regulations. However, had it suceeded, humanity would have a private army of synthetics.

Overlord is the worst possible example. First, it was evil and torturous. Second, the evil was stupid; apparently no one thought it would be a bad idea to have the geth demigod be in maddened pain from sensory overstimulation, and were thus surprised when he killed everyone and nearly caused a galactic techno-apocalypse. And third, it was completely pointless, especially since I did everything Overlord was supposed to do in the very next mission, Legion's loyalty, except better and more thoroughly. Overlord is a wonderful example of Shooting the Shaggy Dog, perhaps the best in the entire ME series.

Yikes. Status quo bias at its best! It's exactly that attitude I want to break, and as long as humanity hasn't got enough political clout to change them, a covert organisation is the only way to do it. Maybe if the old Council is dead things will change a little... but I guess that's another scenario you'll never see.

It isn't that I want to see the regulations never change. I could stand seeing AI research, although that's not totally banned in any case; Synthetic Insights and others can handle it. But if you just throw all of them out, well, then you get things like Teltin, TRAPDOOR and Trident.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 octobre 2011 - 07:08 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
First, it was evil and torturous.

It was not evil. We had just finished a war with the Geth, a race that, as far as we knew, whished the extinction of organic life. Not only that, Cerberus was aware that the Reapers would return and that the Geth would join them.
As far as they knew back then, Project Overlord could be the only way to prevent another war with the geth. Therefore, the Project in itself was not evil.
 

Second, the evil was stupid; apparently no one thought it would be a bad idea to have the geth demigod be in maddened pain from sensory overstimulation, and were thus surprised when he killed everyone and nearly caused a galactic techno-apocalypse.

 True, it was handled without the necessary security measures. Archer's fault, no one else's.

And third, it was completely pointless, especially since I did everything Overlord was supposed to do in the very next mission, Legion's loyalty, except better and more thoroughly.

No, you didn't. Legion's LM either restores the geth to full strength or eliminates a large number of heretics and it might have secured an alliance against the Reapers.
Project Overlord would have made sure the entire Geth race would be ready to protect humanity from any threats, including the Council races.

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yikes. Status quo bias at its best! It's exactly that attitude I want to break, and as long as humanity hasn't got enough political clout to change them, a covert organisation is the only way to do it. Maybe if the old Council is dead things will change a little... but I guess that's another scenario you'll never see.

It isn't that I want to see the regulations never change. I could stand seeing AI research, although that's not totally banned in any case; Synthetic Insights and others can handle it. But if you just throw all of them out, well, then you get things like Teltin, TRAPDOOR and Trident.

What the hell has promoting radical technological change to do with torturing children to "improve" their biotics? Exactly that kind of assumption is used to justify status quo bias. As for Trapdoor, I find its goals understandable - why wouldn't you want to find a means to reduce a rival faction's battlefield advantage? 

But this is getting way off-topic. Can we please get  back to Miranda! Every thread you enter, Xilizhra, ends up at the same place. Don't you have anything else to discuss but the "evils" of Cerberus?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 octobre 2011 - 07:29 .

[Xilizhra]

It was not evil. We had just finished a war with the Geth, a race that, as far as we knew, whished the extinction of organic life. Not only that, Cerberus was aware that the Reapers would return and that the Geth would join them.
As far as they knew back then, Project Overlord could be the only way to prevent another war with the geth. Therefore, the Project in itself was not evil.

One could argue about the intent, and Cerberus' ignorance of the geth/heretic split. But the execution was most definitely evil (stupidly so, as previously mentioned).

Project Overlord would have made sure the entire Geth race would be ready to protect humanity from any threats, including the Council races.

If it had succeeded, it would have been the enslavement of an entire species. I would have stopped it based on that alone.

But this is getting way off-topic. Can we please get back to Miranda! Every thread you enter, Xilizhra, ends up at the same place. Don't you have anything else to discuss?

My apologies. The tricky part is that while I rather like Miranda and find her fascinating in general, I despise Cerberus, so most of what I mention will be about that dichotomy. Though I did try to talk about the Shadow Broker thing earlier without mentioning Cerberus, and it kind of derailed after people asked me what my reasons were.

Anyway... what groups would Miranda focus on gaining the loyalty of for the Reaper war? Or want to, anyway?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 11 octobre 2011 - 07:31 .

[flemm]

Well, Cerberus, as run by TIM, has a history of letting certain cells go completely off the rails as far as the experiments they perform and the methods they employ are concerned. We are told their more abusive work has not been authorized, but also that they felt extreme pressure to produce results, which spurred them toward cruelty and brutality.

Is this TIM's method of getting some of this more extreme work accomplished, while creating a situation where he has a certain amount of plausible deniability? Or just an overused plot device on the part of the writers? Of course, option two could turn into option one very easily, as the story unfolds.

At any event, this is one aspect of the organisation that would have to change with Miranda in charge.

Modifié par flemm, 11 octobre 2011 - 07:37 .

[Ieldra]

PLEASE MAKE IT STOP!

[Xilizhra]

See above edit.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

PLEASE MAKE IT STOP!

Tbh, I don't think it's very far off-topic, if at all, since Cerberus concerns Miranda so closely.

But anyway, we can certainly tighten the focus on the Miranda aspect

Modifié par flemm, 11 octobre 2011 - 07:34 .

[Ieldra]

Sorry. I went overboard with my shout. But since I'm hanging out mainly here and in the TIM thread, I've become a little oversensitive to the neverending debate of the ethics of covert intelligence organizations.

Xilizhra wrote...
Anyway... what groups would Miranda focus on gaining the loyalty of for the Reaper war? Or want to, anyway?

I think the necessity would overrule any anti-Council sentiment. The Salarians are likely closest to her mindset with their STG. Maybe quarians, too. I think she'd give deciphering the Reapers' secrets priority over a military buildup.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 octobre 2011 - 07:40 .

[Xilizhra]

And what could she, personally, do about it?

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...

If it had succeeded, it would have been the enslavement of an entire species. I would have stopped it based on that alone.

Not enslavement. The Project appealed to the Geth's religious tendencies rather than mind control them.
But, for once, we agree. I stopped supporting the Project after meeting Legion.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...

And what could she, personally, do about it?

Personally, I really like the idea of Miranda being the one who discovers a cure to indocrination.

[flemm]

Well, on a somewhat different topic, I've been asking myself what type of appearance by Miranda would leave me reasonably satisfied without her being recruitable to the squad.

I'm optimistic on that point, but you never know. Maybe there is no space in the design for the tension that Miranda would probably bring to the Normandy.

Maybe something like this...

You first meet Miranda fairly early in the game because you go to help her with whatever trouble she's in. At the end of this mission, you get to suggest that she join you. But she says, no, she has no interest in serving on an Alliance ship, and that she has plans to help bring Cerberus back in line on her own. So you part ways.

Later, after you've tracked down TIM, you find out Miranda has done the same. So, this is Miranda's big mission in the game. You confront TIM with her, and the defining moment for the character is what you decide to do at that point. Maybe a couple of different outcomes are possible, with one of them leading to Miranda supporting you as a faction leader for the final battle.

Not a result I would be thrilled with overall, but I might be able to begrudgingly accept it as adequate.

Modifié par flemm, 11 octobre 2011 - 07:55 .

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
And what could she, personally, do about it?

You mean to gain their allegiance? Well, in any halfway realistic scenario (which we won't get), the need to ally would be obvious, and the question would be what kind of contribution everyone could - and would - make to the war. Miranda's contribution would be information and scientific expertise. There is no doubt Cerberus knows more about the Reapers than anyone else in the galaxy. I'd say she'll try to infiltrate Cerberus bases in order to get important information she could share with her would-be allies to show her side has something to offer. 

In the game, we'll probably end up helping our would-be allies to deal with some distraction that, for some mysterious reason makes them unable to contribute to a war for their own survival.  

@MisterJB:
Miranda discovering a protective measure against indoctrination is one of my favorite scenarios!

@flemm:
That's very similar to a minimum acceptable scenario I posted some time ago. Miranda's impact on the big picture is more important than her semi-permanent presence. But it would still be a big disappointment were her presence that short.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 octobre 2011 - 07:54 .

[Athayniel]

flemm wrote...

Well, Cerberus, as run by TIM, has a history of letting certain cells go completely off the rails as far as the experiments they perform and the methods they employ are concerned. We are told their more abusive work has not been authorized, but also that they felt extreme pressure to produce results, which spurred them toward cruelty and brutality.

Is this TIM's method of getting some of this more extreme work accomplished, while creating a situation where he has a certain amount of plausible deniability? Or just an overused plot device on the part of the writers? Of course, option two could turn into option one very easily, as the story unfolds.

At any event, this is one aspect of the organisation that would have to change with Miranda in charge.

Doesn't EDI tell Shepard after her blocks are taken off that Cerberus usually has a dozen projects on the go and he likes to pay very close attention to them? How can so many projects go bad without him knowing? Once is an happenstance, twice is a coincidence... three times...

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda's impact on the big picture is more important than her semi-permanent presence.

Erf, I'm really torn on that point. But no matter, since I don't get to choose 

Athayniel wrote...
Doesn't EDI tell Shepard after her blocks are taken off that Cerberus usually has a dozen projects on the go and he likes to pay very close attention to them? How can so many projects go bad without him knowing? Once is an happenstance, twice is a coincidence... three times...

I think you're right, and that the habit we are describing is just TIM's way of doing things, and is therefore intentional. But it's an inference at this point. Just a very plausible one. 

Modifié par flemm, 11 octobre 2011 - 08:01 .

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...


I was actually referring to the Eclipse mercenary who appelidates Mr. Lawson of "the richest guy in the Galaxy". during Miri's LM.
The accuracy of that statement is, obviously, debatable. After all, Shepard would have no problem identifying him after that, would he?

It depends how much Miranda resembles her father, and if Lawson is her really surname. Mybe she changed her surname of Lawson is only a fake surname.

[The Elder King]

Ieldra2 wrote...



@flemm:
That's very similar to a minimum acceptable scenario I posted some time ago. Miranda's impact on the big picture is more important than her semi-permanent presence. But it would still be a big disappointment were her presence that short.

If her presence isn't as a permanent squadmate, I could lived with it, if her impact on the game is big enough and if her presence time isn't too short.

[CuseGirl]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
Miranda, Jack, and Jacob are the only LIs unaccounted for. The only question is are they the equivalent of Garrus in ME2 or Ash/Kaidan/Liara.

Well, I would be very surprised if Jacob is in the game a lot. I like the guy, but he just wasn't a successful character overall by any measure. He'll get his mission, and I hope it's awesome. But I think that will be that.

Jack... I'm not sure. There's always been a possibility that the Jack/Miranda and Tali/Legion conflicts from ME2 correspond to a squad slot in ME3, i.e. you eventually have to pick one or the other as you move through the Cerberus and Geth/Quarian conflicts respectively. Many imported games would have, in effect, already chosen.

this makes me feel alot calmer loll......altho freakin' Tali is already a permanent squad member without so much of a question......<_<

i dunno, i want a CHOICE of a permanent squadmate. I never used Tali, I kno nothing about Anderson or the VS. I use Garrus when I need Overload and we're stuck with Vega (who I hope is awesome). But I'm sorry, i'm gonna pissed if Miranda isn't on my squad after the 3rd mission.......

Modifié par CuseGirl, 11 octobre 2011 - 08:30 .

[flemm]

CuseGirl wrote...

this makes me feel alot calmer loll......altho freakin' Tali is already a permanent squad member without so much of a question......<_<

Well, it's just an idea among many. It makes sense from a certain point of view. It's not what I think is most likely, if I had to guess, but it's possible. Casey Hudson seemed to basically confirm in a recent tweet that there will be some element of choice.


And I know it's frustrating, but the order in which info is announced doesn't necessarily mean all that much in the end. We're in an annoying sort of limbo period now.

Modifié par flemm, 11 octobre 2011 - 08:50 .