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[Dr. Doctor]

On the whole subject of the "I'm Shepard's second in command" line I always took it on establishing the pecking order aboard the ship. It's to put forward the image that she's in a position of authority and that she isn't to be messed with.

Miranda is pretty much the face of Cerberus aboard the Normandy and her response to Shepard giving access to Cerberus data shows that she's going to react whenever Cerberus is critisized, and that's exactly what Jack exploits. 

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

So Miranda is basically the commissar?

Well, her strength seems to be exerting authority that isn't her own. On the Suicide Mission, she's a good leader. But basically what's happening there is, Shepard says "trust and obey her," and because they all trust and obey Shepard, they do trust and obey her. And Miranda is very good at effectively using that trust and obedience in a way that makes best use of the team's talents and resources.

As far as the Cerberus crew goes, they're Cerberus; they signed on because they believe Cerberus is doing something good and is a competent, important organization, and thus if Cerberus put Miranda in charge, she's worth trusting and obeying. And having been given that trust, Miranda uses it perfectly competently, and pretty much lives up to it (getting people's families to safety as well as general being good at her job).

She's not terribly effective at winning over people who don't already agree with her methods and want their leaders to earn their respect, though (Garrus), or especially people who are starting in a position of disagreement (Wilson, Jack). So yeah, I'd say she's better suited to a role that doesn't require her to earn and maintain the respect and loyalty of everyone under her command.

Which, to speak to the wider conversation, I think is part of her reaction to Jack; "I'm Shepard's second-in-command" feels like "it's more than obvious you won't respect me, but you do respect Shepard, so I'm going to try to get your obedience by claiming to speak for Shepard."

Sadly, Shep immediately undercutting her doesn't help her case. Even a Shep who doesn't hand over the files doesn't really say anything supportive of Miranda, which I think is a shame; any commander who actually respects Miranda's claim to XO should have backed her there unequivocally, it could definitely have saved trouble with Jack later.

Modifié par Quething, 16 octobre 2011 - 02:24 .

[Ashwraith]

Xilizhra wrote...

So Miranda is basically the commissar?

*pictures Miri in a Commissar hat*

*approves of this mental image*

[Quething]

haha, that too. XD

[Xilizhra]

Sadly, Shep immediately undercutting her doesn't help her case. Even a Shep who doesn't hand over the files doesn't really say anything supportive of Miranda, which I think is a shame; any commander who actually respects Miranda's claim to XO should have backed her there unequivocally, it could definitely have saved trouble with Jack later.

I have no objections to her XOing the crew, but I found her attempt to immediately use my authority to assert dominance over the psychologically unstable convict with an obvious hatred for Cerberus rather annoying, so I was fine with undercutting her there.

[Quething]

You can't really pick and choose, though, in a command hierarchy. Either she speaks for you, or she doesn't. If you want her as your XO and she does something you don't approve of, you back her anyway, and save the chewing out for later, behind closed doors. Undercut her once and you've undercut her forever.

[flemm]

Quething wrote...

Which, to speak to the wider conversation, I think is part of her reaction to Jack; "I'm Shepard's second-in-command" feels like "it's more than obvious you won't respect me, but you do respect Shepard, so I'm going to try to get your obedience by claiming to speak for Shepard."

Sadly, Shep immediately undercutting her doesn't help her case. Even a Shep who doesn't hand over the files doesn't really say anything supportive of Miranda, which I think is a shame; any commander who actually respects Miranda's claim to XO should have backed her there unequivocally, it could definitely have saved trouble with Jack later.

I think that's a stretch tbh. Why would anyone who is not the XO claim to be the XO? It would be a laughable thing to do and the last thing that would win anyone's respect. She's doing the XO's job, which is partly to ride the crew and to ensure discipline. It's simply Shepard's perrogative as CO to tell her to back off a bit in this case.

It's not even clear that Jack respects Shepard at that point. She just wants the data. So, there's really no way Miranda can be scheming to benefit from Jack's non-existent respect for Shepard.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 02:54 .

[Xilizhra]

Quething wrote...

You can't really pick and choose, though, in a command hierarchy. Either she speaks for you, or she doesn't. If you want her as your XO and she does something you don't approve of, you back her anyway, and save the chewing out for later, behind closed doors. Undercut her once and you've undercut her forever.

If it was in public, I'd agree, but the only other person in the room is Jacob, and he's loyal anyway. In any case, she wasn't privy to my own agreement with Jack on the Purgatory, and thus her order wasn't based on complete knowledge.

[jtav]

Thanks, guys. You've given me all I need to be harsh with Jack with this Shepard.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Thanks, guys. You've given me all I need to be harsh with Jack with this Shepard.

Tbh, I've never liked the way Shepard's initial interactions with Jack work. There aren't any really strong options. S/he tends to act either like a liar or a doormat. Almost like s/he's afraid of Jack.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 03:05 .

[Xilizhra]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

Thanks, guys. You've given me all I need to be harsh with Jack with this Shepard.

Tbh, I've never liked the way Shepard's initial interactions with Jack work. There aren't any really strong options. S/he tends to act either like a liar or a doormat. Almost like s/he's afraid of Jack.

I doubt trying to assert dominance would ever work with Jack. Shepard kind of needs to be conciliatory.

[jtav]

From today's Q&A:

A fan asked Mac to elaborate on other characters and how they'll pop into ME3

He said that if they were more significant in past games, they'll be at least as important in Mass Effect 3.

[flemm]

Xilizhra wrote...
I doubt trying to assert dominance would ever work with Jack. Shepard kind of needs to be conciliatory.

Shepard isn't really conciliatory though. S/he just submits to Jack's demands or lies about doing so. Not the same thing as being conciliatory, really.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 03:10 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

From today's Q&A:

A fan asked Mac to elaborate on other characters and how they'll pop into ME3

He said that if they were more significant in past games, they'll be at least as important in Mass Effect 3.

Stop with the teasing, Bioware. JUST STOP.

LoL.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 03:12 .

[jtav]

She and Samara should have swapped their recruitment requirements. I can think of dozens of reasons not to take her.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

She and Samara should have swapped their recruitment requirements. I can think of dozens of reasons not to take her.

Hmmm, yeah, but then you wouldn't have the confrontation with Miranda, which is somewhat of an important plot point. Samara is more tangential to the main story.

[Dr. Doctor]

 I like both Miranda and Jack and their romances. (please don't kill me)

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

She and Samara should have swapped their recruitment requirements. I can think of dozens of reasons not to take her.

I'd agree if it weren't for the fact that Jack is integral to the Cerberus plot.

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

 I like both Miranda and Jack and their romances. (please don't kill me)

I like both Miranda and Jack. Jack as a romance has never appealed to me, though.

I was commenting specifically on the dialogue options during her initial recruitment.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 03:30 .

[jtav]

I like Jack. I just have characters who dislike her, just like I have characters who file "grinding Miranda into the dirt" under "hobbies."

[Andaius20]

Ashwraith wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So Miranda is basically the commissar?

*pictures Miri in a Commissar hat*

*approves of this mental image*

Agreed, Morale restored!

[jtav]

Heh. Since I'm so negative, let me say I think we can reasonably expect the following:

1. Miranda will be on-squad for at least the length of a ME2 LM
2. She will be alive by default
3. A happy ending will be possible

[Quething]

@flemm: It's not about Miranda not being the XO. It's about whether "the XO" is a meaningful thing to be. On main!Shep's ship, it's not. Miranda can call herself that, but main!Shep doesn't tell her anything, doesn't ask her for opinions, overrules her decisions and calls on Garrus and Joker to do anything she would normally ask her XO to do. She's still nominally XO, she's got the pips on her jacket, TIM is totally paying her XO payscale. But she's not de facto Shep's second-in-command in any way. This is not at all an uncommon situation in places where the command structure is ordered by an outside force.

Someone like Jack, especially, would be extremely sensitive to who actually has power of their own, who can rely on someone else with power stepping in for them, and who's blowing smoke. If you leave Miranda hanging there, she's blowing smoke.

@Xil: Jack is there. Who is the one person on the ship who Miranda is the most in need of help asserting herself against. (Of course, doing so isn't particularly healthy or helpful for Jack, but very little of anything you can do in the game is particularly helpful for Jack.)

[flemm]

Quething wrote...

@flemm: It's not about Miranda not being the XO. It's about whether "the XO" is a meaningful thing to be. On main!Shep's ship, it's not. Miranda can call herself that, but main!Shep doesn't tell her anything, doesn't ask her for opinions, overrules her decisions and calls on Garrus and Joker to do anything she would normally ask her XO to do. She's still nominally XO, she's got the pips on her jacket, TIM is totally paying her XO payscale. But she's not de facto Shep's second-in-command in any way. This is not at all an uncommon situation in places where the command structure is ordered by an outside force.

Sure, there's some space to roleplay that. For the most part the game leaves that open. Big exception that I can think of is Miranda organizing the mission while the Reaper IFF is being installed, which doesn't really fit with the idea that Shep has basically backed her into a symbolic role.

The way the suicide mission plays out also doesn't really support that. But overall, if you want to roleplay Shepard undercutting his/her XO, that is just as valid as roleplaying Shep supporting her.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 04:11 .

[MisterJB]

jtav wrote...

From today's Q&A:

A fan asked Mac to elaborate on other characters and how they'll pop into ME3

He said that if they were more significant in past games, they'll be at least as important in Mass Effect 3.

Right, so we can expect Miranda to be the XO and for Jacob to "welcome" every new crewmember aboard.
There's not enough salt in the world for this one.