82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Quething]

flemm wrote...
But overall, if you want to roleplay Shepard undercutting his/her XO, that is just as valid as roleplaying Shep supporting her.

Moreso, actually, which was my original point.

Because my latest Shep likes Miri quite a bit (like, hoping she's available for s/s in ME3 quite a bit). Respects her opinion. Thinks she's very competent and admires her loyalty and seeks out her advice.

But when Jack laughs in her face in the debriefing room, said Shep does not have the option to say "Jack, sit down and shut up." She has to stand there and let Miranda founder. Nor do I have the option to imagine that my Shep is supporting her offscreen and making it clear where her confidence lies, because when the Suicide Mission rolls around, her most loyal and obedient friend is the one who refutes Miranda's authority in front of the group.

The game does give you multiple opportunities to undercut her. In front of Jack (three times), in front of the whole team (several times through the suicide mission), in front of the Illusive Man. You only get one chance to genuinely back her (against Jack in the loyalty fight, though choosing her to lead a fireteam is certainly a strong implied support, if still not, to my mind, enough to balance out the shut-down you can give her when you choose a bad fireteam leader).

Few of my Sheps would take pro-Miranda options initially (though most come to respect her quite a bit by the endgame), but the options should still be there. "Few" is not "none" and I'm not the only one who has such Sheps by a long shot.

Modifié par Quething, 16 octobre 2011 - 04:24 .

[flemm]

There are always opportunities to play those situations one way or another. You can support Miranda in her conflict with Jack, take her advice during the SM, have her lead the fire teams, etc. And beyond that there is the simple fact that, depending on how you play it, Miranda doesn't need Shepard's support at every turn, because her situation just isn't that fragile or vulnerable.

If anything, the game mostly supports the idea that Miranda is the second in command throughout the game, and not only symbolically. Otherwise, why is she the one who organizes the mission involving all the squad members while the Reaper IFF is getting installed? And why is she the one doing what the XO would normally do, i.e. giving advice, assessing the tactical situation, etc., during the SM? There's no reason for her to still be the one doing this if her authority has been undermined. She doesn't even need to be loyal to successfully lead the fire teams.

There are ways to roleplay around it, but that's the case either way.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 04:39 .

[MisterJB]

I most heartedly agree with Quenthing. The fact that you can tell Miranda to shut up but not Jack or Garrus ia appalling.
With that being said, I do like what she says if you pick Jack as Fire Team Leader: "You'be got to be kidding."
Had me giggling for the duration of the mission.

Dr. Doctor wrote...

 I like both Miranda and Jack and their romances. (please don't kill me)

I like Jack but her romance just rubs me in all the wrong ways, especially her "love scene" (I refuse to believe anything happened).
Besides, I love her response if Shepard says he does not want sex from her.
"I don't get you. You don't want anything but you keep coming back." Or something close to that.

New pic:

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 octobre 2011 - 04:39 .

[spirosz]

If there is an option in ME3, concerning her role as second in command specifically, I wonder if she would feel awkward not being able to address that certain role. IMO, she's really the best suited for that role compared to any of the other squadmates (1 and 2), but I wouldn't mind seeing her out of that zone. Maybe having her and Kaidan fill in different aspects of that role together.

[spirosz]

MisterJB wrote...


I like Jack but her romance just rubs me in all the wrong ways, especially her "love scene" (I refuse to believe anything happened).
Besides, I love her response if Shepard says he does not want sex from her.
"I don't get you. You don't want anything but you keep coming back." Or something close to that.

New pic:
*pretty*

On the bolded part, most of us jackolytes tend to agree that nothing happened as well. 

[Shotokanguy]

Haha. Jackolytes. Clever. Does any other character fanbase have a clever nickname like that?

[Andaius20]

they all do....just visit there threads....

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
So Miranda is basically the commissar?

You mean like this?

by louvette.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
From today's Q&A:

A fan asked Mac to elaborate on other characters and how they'll pop into ME3

He said that if they were more significant in past games, they'll be at least as important in Mass Effect 3.

OK, that sounds very encouraging. May still result in a too limited time on the team, but looks good for Miranda's role in the plot.  

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
I most heartedly agree with Quenthing. The fact that you can tell Miranda to shut up but not Jack or Garrus ia appalling.

It has never bothered me until now, but you're right. Miranda doesn't really need support, but not having the option to say that you trust her judgment, only to say you do not or to say nothing, that's galling. Having said that, I think when Jack says her piece at the SM, "as if anyone would trust *you*" is in everyone's mind. And the best response to Jack's comment is to select Miranda as the fire team leader.

With that being said, I do like what she says if you pick Jack as Fire Team Leader: "You'be got to be kidding."
Had me giggling for the duration of the mission.

I never did that, and since you need to replay from the O4-relay entry to get there, I've almost never experimented with that situation.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 octobre 2011 - 07:21 .

[Arijharn]

I think not being able to tell Jack or Garrus to shut up is in the same way of maintaining as much discipline within the crew as possible, while cutting Miranda down was in some way more political than anything like an actual vote of no confidence (at least that's how I play it through my head). I still don't think it was appropriate though even if Shep agreed with Garrus or Jack.

The reason why I think that is Jack at least isn't a military operative; so military discipline is something that is completely foreign to her (and Garrus isn't a 'very good Turian', even though I still think it was stupid for him to actually say it given that he knows the stakes etc, or maybe it's just because he wanted to go with Shephard and was slightly pushing it) so maybe she just doesn't realize that she's actually good for the job and is instead clouded by prejudice more than anything else.

[Ieldra]

spiros9110 wrote...
If there is an option in ME3, concerning her role as second in command specifically, I wonder if she would feel awkward not being able to address that certain role. IMO, she's really the best suited for that role compared to any of the other squadmates (1 and 2), but I wouldn't mind seeing her out of that zone. Maybe having her and Kaidan fill in different aspects of that role together.

If there is a choice, it will be between Miranda and Kaidan/Ashley. But I don't think it's the only role for Miranda on the ship. She's a good scientist, too, and since I'd like her to find a defense against indoctrination and so far we have no resident science officer, I would like her to fill that role.

[UserForFun]

Re; Ieldra. I've heard it numerous times from you, but I still can't figure it out; Why you think Miranda is suitable to research the indoctrination?

I think it's exact opposite as a matter of fact; Studying indoctrination is a risky proposition in the best of circumstances. It is reckless and bold, Miranda is not reckless, on the opposite, she despises it.

I can't see her studying it to be really honest.

Re; Miranda's authority. Miranda is the leading operative of Lazarus Cell. The entire crew is composed of surviving Lazarus Cell members ( Apart from Squad-Members, Joker, Dr. and Jacob ) thus Miranda can exert more practical authority than Shepard. ( Officially, Shepard's in charge, but Miranda's been their leader for a longer time/ )

Thus, is obvious that she's Shepard's second in command, it is not a self-appointed position. ( She even has her own office ) As for the Suicide Mission, Miranda as a leader;

Well, the squad-members may dislike her as a person, but they'll follow her because they trust Shepard's judgement ( Otherwise, they would had not agreed to follow him ) If Shepard is confident in Miranda's leadership abilities, the others may not like it, but they'll follow her without question. In such a situation, you tend to set aside the little trivialities such as personal feelings.

All the squad knows that if you do not follow orders, you endanger yourself, and the team.

[Ieldra]

UserForFun wrote...
Re; Ieldra. I've heard it numerous times from you, but I still can't figure it out; Why you think Miranda is suitable to research the indoctrination?

I think it's exact opposite as a matter of fact; Studying indoctrination is a risky proposition in the best of circumstances. It is reckless and bold, Miranda is not reckless, on the opposite, she despises it.

I can't see her studying it to be really honest

Have you played ME1? The scientists in Saren's base on Virmire studied indoctrination, and we know of none of them who succumbed to it. Rana Thanoptis said that there was some danger, but apparently she didn't suffer any permanent bad effects. They also got results: they found out there is a signal component involved. Later Cerberus scientists found out that there is a nanotech component involved. That's why Dr. Chandana felt secure after no functional nanotechnology was found on the Derelict Reaper (as by the logs). Apparently he didn't think that the signal could affect his team on its own.

Anyway, this means that the problem does not lie with Reaper technology itself - though admittedly it is very dangerous - but with the people who study it. The Cerberus scientists like Dr. Chandana were careless. Miranda is not careless. That's why she could succeed where others failed.

How would it be studied? With remote-controlled labs and robot probes, rotating science teams and regular checkups by psychologists who never go on-site, to start with. Well OK, given these requirements it would probably not be a good idea to study it on the Normandy, but it must be studied somewhere and somehow because it must be understood. Miranda is one of very few individuals with first-hand experience.

Also note that in almost all cases where people became indoctrinated by accident in both games, they didn't know what they were dealing with. The only exceptions are Dr. Chandana's team and Dr. Kenson.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 octobre 2011 - 12:13 .

[flemm]

While Miranda could certainly perform the role of research scientist, I don't see it as likely, because you need one regardless of circumstances, and Miranda might not be there. XO is actually more likely because, in that case, the game could more easily default back to the VS as defacto XO, for example, in Miranda's absence. Or you might have to choose between them at some point, if Miranda is around.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 12:28 .

[UserForFun]

On the contrarily, Rana herself stated that her first test subject was the previous chief-scientist. You cannot set boundaries of safety to a technology or process you cannot even comprehend. Using mechanical aid is also futile, due to need of organic-subjects to monitor the progress of indoctrination, and Cerberus already attempted it:

Cerberus began the study of indoctrination several months after Suicide Mission, the result was catastrophic, to say atleast; An unstoppable test-subject that wiped out ( With aid ) the entire reserch facility; Illusive Man himself barely escaped alive. This subject continued it's rampant pursuit, eventually gaining access to Ascension Program, and uploaded a tremendous amount of information regarding the Alliance, Human Biotics, and their technology.

The research itself is too unpredictable, by the time the Reapers act trough an avatar ( Indoctrinated individual ) it is already unstoppable. ( Speed, strength, regenerative abilities, biotic abilities, awareness of danger, reaction time.. Everything. ) A single avatar wiped out all of Aria's forces, Cerberus forces, and the entire security of one of the most secure Alliance facilities.

There is no safety, is merely '' man's hand exceeding it's grasp ''

Modifié par UserForFun, 16 octobre 2011 - 01:37 .

[jtav]

I so completely reject that mindset that it's comical. Reaper technology is advanced, but it's still technology and should be treated as such. It's also the most potent weapon the Reapers have, and a counter has to be found or we are done for. And quite frankly everyone who studied indoctrination before was carrying the Idiot Ball around beforehand.

But I don't think it will be Miranda's role. I'm still betting on fixing Lazarus.

[MisterJB]

UserForFun wrote...

On the contrarily, Rana herself stated that her first test subject was the previous chief-scientist. You cannot set boundaries of safety to a technology or process you cannot even comprehend.

We already know what causes Indocrination and its effects. Based on that, it's possible to establish safety protocols
 

Using mechanical aid is also futile, due to need of organic-subjects to monitor the progress of indoctrination, and Cerberus already attempted it:

There will be no lack of organic-subjects under the effect of Indocrination once the Reaper fleet arrives.. The mechanical aid would still protect the scientists.

Cerberus began the study of indoctrination several months after Suicide Mission, the result was catastrophic, to say atleast;

I don't support what Cerberus did to Grayson but, to be fair, it was Anderson and Khalee's fault that he escaped.

The research itself is too unpredictable, by the time the Reapers act trough an avatar ( Indoctrinated individual ) it is already unstoppable. ( Speed, strength, regenerative abilities, biotic abilities, awareness of danger, reaction time.. Everything. ) A single avatar wiped out all of Aria's forces, Cerberus forces, and the entire security of one of the most secure Alliance facilities.

Shepard destroyed an Avatar single handedly. Perhaps AvatarSaren was not as powerful as AvatarGrayson because he was already dead by the time Sovereign assumed direct control but still...
Ironically, the Reapers assuming Avatars is our best hope.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 octobre 2011 - 02:06 .

[jtav]

Now's probably the time to mention the quote is "man's reach should exceed his grasp or what's a heaven for?" and the speaker is a technically gifted but uninspired artist. It isn't a caution.

[UserForFun]

Even without Anderson's intervention, Illusive Man ordered Grayson's execution in 48 hours ( Or somewhere around ), by that time Grayson's evolution would had attained perfection. With or without assistance, he would had escaped.

The same case applies to all potential test-subjects. The Reapers -know- how Organic minds function, they know how to hold the leash, they are patient after all. A subject may remain dormant while the Reapers build strength, with no apparent visible alterations. By the time any scientist figures it out, the subject becomes an unstoppable juggernaut that can literally tear a city in half.

However, this applies to Cerberus being incompetent. However, even if would be the case to implement a few safety-mechanisms, such as an automatic-release of toxins ( Proven by the red-sand thingie ) or even explosive, there's no guarantee it would kill it, as Grayson endured far worse.

Risk exist, that is without a doubt. But, if Miranda decided to study the effects of indoctrination, then she would had done it on Grayson. She was not present however. Which makes me wounder; What the heck she did for such a long time?

Only faction that is shown studying Reapers/Indoctrination is Cerberus, and like all their projects, it failed. Makes me wounder how we're going to win a war with an enemy we know very little of.. Magically make a weapon during the time Earth is invaded?

Modifié par UserForFun, 16 octobre 2011 - 02:35 .

[flemm]

UserForFun wrote...

Only faction that is shown studying Reapers/Indoctrination is Cerberus, and like all their projects, it failed. Makes me wounder how we're going to win a war with an enemy we know very little of.. Magically make a weapon during the time Earth is invaded?

Probably some version of "Shepard is Space Jesus." On the bright side, it probably means the Lazarus project will be central to the plot's resolution, since that's a big part of what makes Shepard unique. That and the cypher.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 02:52 .

[MisterJB]

UserForFun wrote...

Even without Anderson's intervention, Illusive Man ordered Grayson's execution in 48 hours ( Or somewhere around ), by that time Grayson's evolution would had attained perfection. With or without assistance, he would had escaped.

Maybe, maybe not. I doubt Kai Leng's preferred method of execution would be to walk into Grayson's prison and stab him in the eye.

The same case applies to all potential test-subjects. The Reapers -know- how Organic minds function, they know how to hold the leash, they are patient after all. A subject may remain dormant while the Reapers build strength, with no apparent visible alterations. By the time any scientist figures it out, the subject becomes an unstoppable juggernaut that can literally tear a city in half.

Grayson was directly implanted with Reaper technology recovered from the Collectors. Him, along with Saren and the Collectors, was special, a direct conduct of the Reaper's powers, an Avatar.
Most Indocrinated become like the Salarians Shepard encounters on Virmire, maddened/mindless husks. Another example, we were not attacked by super powerful former Cerberus operatives on the Derelict Reaper.
I doubt we will encounter many Reaper agents of Grayson's caliber now that they know taking over an Avatar can leave them vulnerable. Notice how Grayson and the Collector General were abandoned before their deaths.
And again, Avatars are not indestructible. Shepard killed one.

However, this applies to Cerberus being incompetent. However, even if would be the case to implement a few safety-mechanisms, such as an automatic-release of toxins ( Proven by the red-sand thingie ) or even explosive, there's no guarantee it would kill it, as Grayson endured far worse.

Just put a remote controlled explosive in his brain.

Risk exist, that is without a doubt. But, if Miranda decided to study the effects of indoctrination, then she would had done it on Grayson. She was not present however. Which makes me wounder; What the heck she did for such a long time?

"Retribution" happens after ME2 so, obviously, Miranda could not have been in the novel. She could have resigned or even be dead.
Also, I doubt Miranda would be ok with the experiments on Grayson. She seems to be against forced experiments on sentient beings.

Only faction that is shown studying Reapers/Indoctrination is Cerberus, and like all their projects, it failed.

Not entirely. The project did produce useful intel.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 octobre 2011 - 03:07 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
So Miranda is basically the commissar?

You mean like this?

by louvette.

O.O

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

^ Miri would most likely throw me against the wall with her biotics shouting....and with a small smirk, "My eyes are up here dammit."

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 16 octobre 2011 - 03:13 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I so completely reject that mindset that it's comical. Reaper technology is advanced, but it's still technology and should be treated as such. It's also the most potent weapon the Reapers have, and a counter has to be found or we are done for. And quite frankly everyone who studied indoctrination before was carrying the Idiot Ball around beforehand.

QFT. I have nothing more to add.

But I don't think it will be Miranda's role. I'm still betting on fixing Lazarus.

I mentioned it as a possibility. Doesn't ring quite true, though. Lazarus is an obvious plot hook, but only assuming there's really something wrong with Shepard.