82210 réponses à ce sujet

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
 Lazarus is an obvious plot hook, but only assuming there's really something wrong with Shepard.

I don't know that there will be anything "wrong," precisely. But I expect the Lazarus project will impact Shepard's ability to deal with the Reapers in some way. Maybe negatively initially, but positively in the long run. So, it might be mostly a question of understanding it better. Which is where Miranda would come in, since she headed the project.

The workaround for her being dead would be recovered Lazarus project logs or something. This would probably be in addition to a Cerberus-related story arc, honestly, if it is there. But I could see it being the thing that stays in the game even if Miranda is dead, via the logs, whereas Miranda's involvement in the Cerberus plot might just disappear, except perhaps as a passing mention.

In any case, a return to Lazarus station could be in the works. Seems likely, given how central it is to Shepard's story.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 03:20 .

[jtav]

I think there is, just because you could have Shep in a coma/stranded for two years and not change a thing, and I don't think the writers are stupid enough to do a resurrection and completely ignore it.

But Lazrus Station is a no-go. It was destroyed. (first mission report)

Modifié par jtav, 16 octobre 2011 - 03:21 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I think there is, just because you could have Shep in a coma/stranded for two years and not change a thing, and I don't think the writers are stupid enough to do a resurrection and completely ignore it.

Well, Shep is biosynthetic now, the Reapers are a fusion of organic and technological components. That's a retcon, arguably, but if so, it happened while the writers were dreaming up the lazarus project anyway. The Reapers can "assume control" of organic avatars, there's the blackout during Arrival, etc. So, my probability meter is going crazy on this one.

jtav wrote...
But Lazrus Station is a no-go. It was destroyed. (first mission report)

True, but I wouldn't rule it out even so. You'd just be returning to a wrecked station. Or there's a high-security bunker or something that was not destroyed. Whatever.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 03:27 .

[nitefyre410]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I so completely reject that mindset that it's comical. Reaper technology is advanced, but it's still technology and should be treated as such. It's also the most potent weapon the Reapers have, and a counter has to be found or we are done for. And quite frankly everyone who studied indoctrination before was carrying the Idiot Ball around beforehand.

QFT. I have nothing more to add.

But I don't think it will be Miranda's role. I'm still betting on fixing Lazarus.

I mentioned it as a possibility. Doesn't ring quite true, though. Lazarus is an obvious plot hook, but only assuming there's really something wrong with Shepard.

 

My guess is that  indoctrination works along the lines of the DC universes Anti-Life equation just not on same scale  subverting a subjects free will but that is just a guess.

[jtav]

And of course, there's only one person who understands Lazarus. It's truly unique to Miranda. A disgruntled Cerberus agent could be created out of the air, but Miranda is the last survivor of the Lazarus science team.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

And of course, there's only one person who understands Lazarus. It's truly unique to Miranda. A disgruntled Cerberus agent could be created out of the air, but Miranda is the last survivor of the Lazarus science team.

Yeah, though there's always a way to write a character out of the story, if that is desirable. Not saying it's likely, since there's no reason to expect that will happen. But I don't think it's any less likely in the case of Lazarus. With Lazarus, if you didn't want Miranda involved, or had her focus elsewhere, you would just have the other scientists on the Normandy figure out what was done during Lazarus.

I do really like the video log idea, though, as it would be a cool fallback for the "Miranda is dead" scenario.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 03:36 .

[jtav]

Well, that's when we go back to logs/notes. SB had a mole there. We have access to the SB network.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Well, that's when we go back to logs/notes. SB had a mole there. We have access to the SB network.

Right, exactly. It's just a question of whether the writers want to acknowledge Miranda's role in Lazarus or not. I would think they would. But you never know.

[MisterJB]

flemm wrote...

I do really like the video log idea, though, as it would be a cool fallback for the "Miranda is dead" scenario.

I would kill a romanced Miranda just for this, if possible. Should make for a very emotional scene.

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...
I would kill a romanced Miranda just for this, if possible. Should make for a very emotional scene.

Didn't somebody say earlier in the thread that a romanced Miranda can't be killed?

But anyway, yeah, getting to see more of the Lazarus project would be awesome. It's worth noting, as I recall, that the brief glimpse we get of Miranda in the SB surveillance videos is on Lazarus station.

[jtav]

You probably wouldn't get anything special out of it. Romanced Miranda can't die. When she put on her clothes after the sex scene, she also stole Liara's plot armor.

[MisterJB]

I did say "if possible". Maybe I should have said: "Had it been possible, I would have killed a romanced Miranda just for that."

jtav wrote...

You probably wouldn't get anything special out of it. Romanced Miranda can't die. When she put on her clothes after the sex scene, she also stole Liara's plot armor.

Loyal Miranda can't die, actually. Must be something on Illium's water.

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...

I did say "if possible". Maybe I should have said: "Had it been possible, I would have killed a romanced Miranda just for that."

Hmm, yeah. It's true that a Shepard who romanced Miranda, saw her die, and then ends up seeing images of her bringing him back to life... well, that could get pretty emotional indeed.

[jtav]

Oh, um sorry. And yeah, I'd cry buckets. It was hard enough to kill her off at all. First time I grieved for a game character.

Probably nothing, but her SB vid is the most complex, with cuts to multiple angles. It's also fairly long and nothing happens really.

Modifié par jtav, 16 octobre 2011 - 04:05 .

[flemm]

The funny part would be that she would probably not be really happy about spending all those resources on you and not really all that convinced you are worth her time (in the videos). So, that would just be a reminder of the whole story arc in ME2.

jtav wrote...
Probably nothing, but her SB vid is the most complex, with cuts to multiple angles. It's also fairly long and nothing happens really.

As maddening as it is in parts, her SB dossier is also the most complex. That seems more significant as far as story elements, but the glimpse of Lazarus station is a pretty positive sign for more references to that in ME3, I would say.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 04:27 .

[Ieldra]

nitefyre410 wrote...
My guess is that  indoctrination works along the lines of the DC universes Anti-Life equation just not on same scale  subverting a subjects free will but that is just a guess.

In a Sci-Fi universe, they'd have to come up with something more convincing than that. "Anti-Life equation"? What kind of nonsense is that. Also free will is a metaphysical construct.

We have already seen one component, btw: memory alteration. I suspect those dreams some people have are created using the same method as the changed memories. 

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
Probably nothing, but her SB vid is the most complex, with cuts to multiple angles. It's also fairly long and nothing happens really.

As maddening as it is in parts, her SB dossier is also the most complex. That seems more significant as far as story elements, but the glimpse of Lazarus station is a pretty positive sign for more references to that in ME3, I would say.

Hmm.... I wonder if we can take that as a sign that she'll be very important in ME3, or just a result of her being the female lead in ME2.

BTW, if Lazarus is a topic in ME3, I wouldn't be surprised if we got an opportunity to go back to Lazarus Station. "Destroyed" can mean anything between dysfunctional beyond easy repair and exploded into very small parts.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Hmm.... I wonder if we can take that as a sign that she'll be very important in ME3, or just a result of her being the female lead in ME2.

Well, I wouldn't read too much into it. But LotSB seems to be the closest thing we have to a preview of ME3 as far as many design elements are concerned (it has been referenced as setting the standard for a variety of things). And the video logs and dossiers seem to contain teases and hints for ME3. So, there's probably some reason why Miranda's file contains so much info. What that means for her involvement in ME3... I don't know tbh.

This was released in what? September of last year? ME3 development had to have been well under way by then.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 06:08 .

[jtav]

Please don't let it be a preview for Miranda. That'd be worse than a cameo.

[Dr. Doctor]

When it comes to indoctrination we know a researcher in that particular field: Rana Thanoptis. I'm a fan of the Ascended Extra trope and it would be nice to have Shepard not ruin her day for a change.

Miranda: So how exactly do you know Shepard?

Rana: Well I was a researcher on Virmire, until Shepard blew it up with a nuke. Then I was working with Okeer until Shepard blew that place up too. How did you meet him?

Miranda: I brought him back from the dead, and then the station we were on exploded.

Rana: It looks like Shepard and science don't mix.

Miranda: Indeed.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Please don't let it be a preview for Miranda. That'd be worse than a cameo.

As a preview, I was speaking more of the style: character interaction handled with more depth and emotion, reunion with an old squad member/LI, more cinematic approach, more complicated boss fights, significant story arc within a small series of missions, different squad member AI, etc.

The files and videos do seem to be teasers, though. Other than maybe the video of Lazarus station, the Miranda stuff doesn't exactly fill me with enthusiasm either tbh. It's an odd bunch of info. But we'll see.

Basically, Miranda's dossier has a WTF? factor that the others really don't. So, that has to be intentional. Either as a red herring, a teaser, or a set-up for something else. Could be any of the above, really.

Ieldra2 wrote...
BTW, if Lazarus is a topic in ME3, I wouldn't be surprised if we got an opportunity to go back to Lazarus Station. "Destroyed" can mean anything between dysfunctional beyond easy repair and exploded into very small parts.

I think, if I were handling it anyway, I would arrange to go back there. It just makes everything more concrete. And Cerberus would probably be there, too. Hell, it could even be where we run into Miranda again, if she's alive. Otherwise, you get the missing logs.

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 06:47 .

[Ieldra]

A little food for thought: One of the most common epithets haters give Miranda is "elitist b*tch". Which brought me to ask myself the question: is Miranda elitist? Note that I'm using the word as a decriptive term, not a pejorative one.

What does she think about politics? I don't think she's egalitarian, and given her contempt for incompetence I don't think she'd support a system where an incompetent could come to rule just because of popularity or enough money to finance a big PR campaign. On the other hand, neither can I see her supporting an autocratic system.

In the game she comes across as somewhat apolitical, perhaps it's all the same for her as long as the experts do what must be done to bring humanity forward, in secret if necessary. But Cerberus has a political agenda, so I can't imagine she hasn't thought about it.

I know I'm stepping into a minefield here, but it's an aspect of Miranda I've often thought about. I hope this thread won't be derailed because of it. This is about Miranda's view on politics within the ME universe, so avoid bringing real-world examples into it if at all possible.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 octobre 2011 - 08:35 .

[Xilizhra]

I think Miranda might be a technocrat, or something similar to it. I definitely see her as being apathetic to democracy.

[flemm]

Well, my first reaction is that her opinion on politics would be along the lines of, "democracy is the worst form of government with the possible exception of every other kind," and that her whole motivation, at least intellectually, for being involved with an organisation like Cerberus, would be the conviction that certain types of results can only be achieved outside of the main system that prevents chaos from consuming society, while recognizing that a basically non-oppressive, even if somewhat weak and corrupt system is most effective over the long term for maintaining a certain amount of stability. While more radical advancements would be achieved in the shadows.

I could see her supporting a more authoritarian rule in times of crisis, but republican government over the long term, a bit like Machiavelli.

*clears throat*

*goes back to watching football*

Modifié par flemm, 16 octobre 2011 - 08:45 .