82210 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

jtav wrote...

As loath as I am to bring up the betrayal line, I do have a question. Why does Miranda say the line if you pick the Paragon response when every other person who advocates destroying the base responds to the Renegade response? Coding error?

Like Flemm said, I think that, unlike everyone else, Miranda is talking toTIM and not Shepard.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
And I am not happy about the loyalty shift one bit.

Well, as MisterJB points out, it's mainly away from TIM, which is why the change eventually manifests itself even if you keep the base (meaning that Shep and TIM are in agreement about the base).

One of the more overlooked aspects of that particular exchange is Miranda's objection to TIM treating her as expendable (something that would especially resonate with her, given her father's treatment of his daughters). 

This helps to explain why the change manifests itself more quickly if you keep the base than if you don't. TIM shows no loyalty to her, whereas Shepard does (in theory at least, by that point). If you keep the base, TIM never has the opportunity to reveal his lack of loyalty to Miranda. Thus she is driven to resign less quickly.

It's a good thing, imo, that Miranda loses her illusions about TIM and what Cerberus stands for (as long as it is operated by him). It's a necessary step for Miranda's character to continue to evolve. Where the writers go with it is another question (totally open, of course, at this point).

In short, Miranda's lines are more about her relationship to TIM, whereas everybody else is just giving advice to Shepard.

Modifié par flemm, 18 octobre 2011 - 05:15 .

[CrutchCricket]

So let's see if I get this (I've only ever brought Miranda and Tali to that part, and it always plays out the same. I say I'll destroy it, Miranda says she keeping the base feels like a betrayal and then I destroy it, she resigns everyone wins-except TIM).
Shepard can either say he'll destroy it or keep it and the character broadcasting TIM's hologram will speak up if Shep's line is against their own beliefs. But Miranda is the only one who agrees with him at that point?

Why is this a problem?

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Why is this a problem?

Suffice it to say people have strong opinions about this

Mostly it has to do with how Miranda expresses her views on the subject. Some feel her opinion is insufficiently pragmatic, basically.

Believe me when I say that is a very short summary of what has been said on the subject.

Modifié par flemm, 18 octobre 2011 - 05:08 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Suffice it to say people have strong opinions about this

Mostly it has to do with how Miranda expresses her views on the subject. Some feel her opinion is insufficiently pragmatic, basically.

Believe me when I say that is a very short summary of what has been said on the subject.

Hah! I actually took Ieldra up on discussing some of that over PM. I guess we'll see if I can hold my own. I think even the way Miranda expressed it works but I'm not trying to start something.

Either way it wouldn't make sense if she followed the pattern and only spoke if she disagreed with you. I think she was set up for resigning and if so it ups the chances of the resignation being canon and planned all along which only helps us I think.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I know I'm stepping into a minefield here, but it's an aspect of Miranda I've often thought about. I hope this thread won't be derailed because of it. This is about Miranda's view on politics within the ME universe, so avoid bringing real-world examples into it if at all possible.

So, are you really going to leave me hanging on this one? 

I was watching football at the time, but that doesn't mean I wasn't paying attention

When I came back from sleeping, the topic was five pages upthread. So I just left it alone. But here you are:

IMO, Miranda thinks the ideal state is one where the experts rule and those who've proven that they're willing and able to serve the greater good. Sort of meritocratic or technocratic. That would go hand-in-hand with her idealism. Likely she can see that none of the systems invented so far reliably keeps the incompetents out of office, so she'll settle for any system that keeps vested interests from dominating policy as best as it can and where - as you said - some important decisions are made behind closed doors because they're too important to be left to the influence of public opinion. 

Which, btw, complements my main Shepard, Cyrus Shepard, in a way. He thinks the majority of the population must, in time, come to accept what so far has gone on behind closed doors as normal, that hard decisions must be made and that strategy, not passion, is what keeps things from falling apart. He'd shatter what Donovan Hock has called "the galaxy's gleeful delusion of peace". Humanity, so he believes, will only grow up as a species if people don't look at the universe through rose-colored glasses or believe their own preferences in life are in any way relevant to the universe at large. Not everyone should do what he does, of course, but everyone should damn well know everything he's seen and everything he's had to do. That's why he's particularly annoyed with the Council's sweep-under-the-rug policy regarding the Reapers.    
.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Hah! I actually took Ieldra up on discussing some of that over PM. I guess we'll see if I can hold my own.
 

Good luck

I've enjoyed many of the conversations we've had on the topic, but for some it is a touchy subject. So, you are probably making the right call by handling it via PM.

Modifié par flemm, 18 octobre 2011 - 05:32 .

[jtav]

Believe me, nothing would delight me more than the resignation not being canon. The only reason I don't want her to be Shepard's enemy is that she'd probably die.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
So let's see if I get this (I've only ever brought Miranda and Tali to that part, and it always plays out the same. I say I'll destroy it, Miranda says she keeping the base feels like a betrayal and then I destroy it, she resigns everyone wins-except TIM).
Shepard can either say he'll destroy it or keep it and the character broadcasting TIM's hologram will speak up if Shep's line is against their own beliefs. But Miranda is the only one who agrees with him at that point?

Why is this a problem?

Here we go again

I say that Miranda's line "Using anything from this base feels like a betrayal" is out of character because she would never be sentimental about a decision like that. She'd never hesitate to use a weapon against her enemy just because it's been used to kill her friends, so to speak, and she'd never ascribe a "taint" to anything that carries over from the pods that liquefied humans to "anything from this base". It's a 100% non-pragmatic, sentimental reasoning he uses here. As an experienced operative, she will have made many decisions where she had to overcome emotional misgivings because of a strategic necessity, and thus, her betrayal line compromises her competence as an operative.

Which means, if she recommended destroying the base (which I'm not sure she'd do in the first place if not for Bioware's Paragon favoritism), it would be for something pragmatic like "I don't think we can handle this safely", and she would not extend her recommendation to "anything from this bas", for surely there are things you could take with you for study. How that would constitute a betrayal is completely incomprehensible. 

Edit:
Got your PM. Very long. That will take me a while to digest. May be a day before I can answer.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 octobre 2011 - 05:37 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Believe me, nothing would delight me more than the resignation not being canon. The only reason I don't want her to be Shepard's enemy is that she'd probably die.

Personally, I think it's important for Miranda to wake up to the fact that Cerberus, as run by TIM, is not what she believes it is or wants it to be. That has to happen, really, at one point or another, for her character to grow.

[jtav]

But does it have to grow by aligning herself with *Shepard?*

[Barquiel]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

Believe me, nothing would delight me more than the resignation not being canon. The only reason I don't want her to be Shepard's enemy is that she'd probably die.

Personally, I think it's important for Miranda to wake up to the fact that Cerberus, as run by TIM, is not what she believes it is or wants it to be. That has to happen, really, at one point or another, for her character to grow.

I got the impression that she has realized this in ME2.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I come bringing fanfic.

The latest update of Elyvern's fanfic Degrees of Inheritance is up. The link goes directly to the new part, if you want to start at the start, go here.

It's a small update, but it contains the big revelation about what, in this timeline, were Mr. Eldfell's (Miranda's father's) plans for his daughters, why he did what he did and what exactly is encoded in their genomes. I have no idea how many of Elyvern's regular readers saw that coming....but it's big.

Congratulations on solving the riddle. It's... terrifying, really.

Terrifying? That's interesting. Why do you think so?

[Athayniel]

Just out of curiosity since I hadn't read all 600-odd pages from before I started reading the thread, but has anyone tweeted Mac Walters or Patrick Weekes to ask about the line?

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

But does it have to grow by aligning herself with *Shepard?*
.

Why not?

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here we go again [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

I
say that Miranda's line "Using anything from this base feels like a
betrayal" is out of character because she would never be sentimental
about a decision like that. She'd never hesitate to use a weapon against
her enemy just because it's been used to kill her friends, so to speak,
and she'd never ascribe a "taint" to anything that carries over from
the pods that liquefied humans to "anything from this base". It's a 100%
non-pragmatic, sentimental reasoning he uses here. As an experienced
operative, she will have made many decisions where she had to overcome
emotional misgivings because of a strategic necessity, and thus, her
betrayal line compromises her competence as an operative.

Which
means, if she recommended destroying the base (which I'm not sure she'd
do in the first place if not for Bioware's Paragon favoritism), it would
be for something pragmatic like "I don't think we can handle this
safely", and she would not extend her recommendation to "anything from
this bas", for surely there are things you could take with you for
study. How that would constitute a betrayal is completely
incomprehensible. 

Edit:
Got your PM. Very long. That will take me a while to digest. May be a day before I can answer.

Wouldn't she though? I understand she's pragmatic and all but that's a farcry from being a combination of Spock/The Terminator. Also I think the exact nature of base is quite relevant here. We're not talking about picking up a gun and shooting someone or shoving someone out an airlock here. We're talking about the wholesale liquification of human beings for the purpose of creating a cosmic horror. The only purpose of the whole thing I might add (this was part of my PM). I think we're in a slightly different league from a few simple "murder for science" scenarios. Also note that for a lot of the more horrific crap Cerberus has pulled, TIM has been able to claim plausible deniability and Miranda has downright disavowed them (example: Subject Zero). Is she playing dumb/compassionate in those cases, merely claiming plausible deniability like TIM? Possibly. Is she deliberately in the dark (Cerberus cells have no communcation with each other) about them and thus showing genuine feeling when she says they're a bad idea?  Also a possibility.
Furthermore I think she's plenty sentimental as evidenced by her romance. The fact that it's optional and some people never do it is irrelevant. The point is that had they pursued it this is how she would've reacted is sufficient proof of the possibility of sentimentality. Thus it is not inconceivable that faced with a cosmic horror factory that her boss wants to just take over (really desperately I might add) she might express some real doubts beyond just "it could be bad for business".

I think the "out of character" position is much tougher to defend since you need to rule out the probability that she would act sentimental , while your opposition merely has to prove that some probability exists.

Yeah sorry for the length. But it seemed like a lot of thought went into that discussion so I wanted to do it justice by working through my points as logically as I could.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 18 octobre 2011 - 06:08 .

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

But does it have to grow by aligning herself with *Shepard?*

She already is aligned with Shepard.

And I think the "betrayal" line comes from her not having truly put her thoughts together yet, about why it would seem like a betrayal to give the base to Cerberus specifically. Her words weren't as controlled as they normally are, but perhaps she could see a future in which TIM would feed more humans into the base. Remember, Miranda knows TIM better than everyone else, and she broke her general loyalty to Cerberus because she saw a dark potential in TIM and this base. I think that now more than ever is a good time to listen to her recommendation, poorly phrased though it may be.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Wouldn't she though? I understand she's pragmatic and all but that's a farcry from being a combination of Spock/The Terminator. Also I think the exact nature of base is quite relevant here. We're not talking about picking up a gun and shooting someone or shoving someone out an airlock here. We're talking about the wholesale liquification of human beings for the purpose of creating a cosmic horror. The only purpose of the whole thing I might add (this was part of my PM). I think we're in a slightly different league from a few simple "murder for science" scenarios. Also note that for a lot of the more horrific crap Cerberus has pulled, TIM has been able to claim plausible deniability and Miranda has downright disavowed them (example: Subject Zero). Is she playing dumb/compassionate in those cases, merely claiming plausible deniability like TIM? Possibly. Is she deliberately in the dark (Cerberus cells have no communcation with each other) about them and thus showing genuine feeling when she says they're a bad idea?  Also a possibility.
Furthermore I think she's plenty sentimental as evidenced by her romance. The fact that it's optional and some people never do it is irrelevant. The point is that had they pursued it this is how she would've reacted is sufficient proof of the possibility of sentimentality. Thus it is not inconceivable that faced with a cosmic horror factory that her boss wants to just take over (really desperately I might add) she might express some real doubts beyond just "it could be bad for business".

Please note: I am not saying she wouldn't feel what she says she feels. Feeling horrified is to be expected. I am saying she would not make a recommendation in a matter that could affect the fate of the galaxy based on that feeling, but distance herself from it, take a mental step back and think things through - as she was trained to do!

Another thing: she says "using *anything* from this base feels like a betrayal". I can't look into her head, but that's so un-Miranda-Like that I really thought they'd given her the wrong line by accident. So suddenly, taking stuff away from the base for study is a betrayal? WTF? One way or the other, that stuff needs to be studied, and Miranda knows it. Had the derelict Reaper survived, it would have been totally OK. But to throw away even the slightest chance of understanding more about the Reapers for a mere sentiment? Sorry, I don't buy it. Whoever wrote that line didn't know what he was doing.

Also, being emotional in a romance is not being sentimental. Romance is *about* emotion. And it affects just the two of them, so it's not at all problematic to give her emotions more leeway in the romance. The same, however, cannot be said of the CB decision. The strategic implication are huge, she wouldn't just ignore them. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 octobre 2011 - 06:23 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Terrifying? That's interesting. Why do you think so?

1- The very idea of thousands of human beings descended from Ashland and Woman X, by itself, grates me on a primal level. It's very similar to the theory of Genhis Khan having over 16 millions descendants. I find it hard to explain, it just scares me.

2-The alien traits, the whole process being described as "self-propagating mechanism",coupled with prhases like this:
"the part of her that was human and female was deeply aware of the sensation that somehow along the way, she'd lost control of her own body, that it no longer belonged to her."
Makes Ashland's legacy sound like an incurable disease that will spread.

3-Last but certainly not least, Miranda's own assertion that all of her wishes, choices, sacrifices, all of it was programmed into her genetic code by her father. Not being able to distinguish which thoughts are yours and which are there because someone else wanted them to be there. And there's absolutely nothing she can do about it. This is my very own definition of Hell.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Please note: I am not saying she wouldn't feel what she says she feels. Feeling horrified is to be expected. I am saying she would not make a recommendation in a matter that could affect the fate of the galaxy based on that feeling, but distance herself from it, take a mental step back and think things through - as she was trained to do!

Granted, but training can only take you so far. I don't have any good specific examples but a lot of war stories typically feature hardcore soldiers just losing it. Despite all the training they went through and even some combat which was supposed to numb them to the horrors of war can still break down in situations of extreme stress. Also I don't want to beat this point to death but again I doubt "Wholesale Liquifing Reaper Factory proceedures" is standard Cerberus training

Ieldra2 wrote...
Another thing: she says "using *anything* from this base feels like a betrayal". I can't look into her head, but that's so un-Miranda-Like that I really thought they'd given her the wrong line by accident. So suddenly, taking stuff away from the base for study is a betrayal? WTF? One way or the other, that stuff needs to be studied, and Miranda knows it. Had the derelict Reaper survived, it would have been totally OK. But to throw away even the slightest chance of understanding more about the Reapers for a mere sentiment? Sorry, I don't buy it. Whoever wrote that line didn't know what he was doing.

You're right, this is hard to argue, particularly since you have been studying Collector tech (seekers, particle beam, you can even wear their armor). Still, it's either a careless throwaway line or it's meant as "anything else". In my message I mentioned that the base, indeed the whole Collector shebang was set up for the express purpose of creating the Reaper. Thus Miranda could recognize that the only thing it could be used for is creating a Reaper- which is a "betrayal". The support tech- weapons, armor, seeker swarms were already being studied. Bit of a stretch I know. If you have a problem with the literal wording of the line, I can agree it's sloppy. But I believe the thought behind it is genuine, and possible.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Also, being emotional in a romance is not being sentimental. Romance is *about* emotion. And it affects just the two of them, so it's not at all problematic to give her emotions more leeway in the romance. The same, however, cannot be said of the CB decision. The strategic implication are huge, she wouldn't just ignore them. 

Agreed, they're not the same thing. But it's not really just affecting them. It's a distraction from the mission. It's not just blowing off steam (as Mordin thinks). The emotions are troubling to Miranda which clearly can interfere with her judgement and thus jeopardize the mission- something which she wouldn't allow if she was 100% pragmatic. But she does give in (also relevant is the fact she mentions love first). I think the idea is that she starts out as you say but gets more sentimental as part of her character development. You can dislike it. But that doesn't make it impossible.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Terrifying? That's interesting. Why do you think so?

1- The very idea of thousands of human beings descended from Ashland and Woman X, by itself, grates me on a primal level. It's very similar to the theory of Genhis Khan having over 16 millions descendants. I find it hard to explain, it just scares me.

Except that you know, we all are like that. Go far enough back and I have a common ancestor with Hitler. It doesn't bother me because it doesn't mean anything. I understand why people might feel otherwise, but really, what I don't understand is why that feeling doesn't go away once you think about it. It does for me (and hasn't that resulted in cognitive dissonances between Elyvern and me when talking about her story). 

2-The alien traits, the whole process being described as "self-propagating mechanism",coupled with prhases like this:
"the part of her that was human and female was deeply aware of the sensation that somehow along the way, she'd lost control of her own body, that it no longer belonged to her."
Makes EldfellAshland's legacy sound like an incurable disease that will spread.

It may sound like that, until you realize that's the same for all humans, only most aren't aware of it. At least once in its history, the human species has incorporated a viral DNA into its genome, and to some degree, we're all the slaves of our genes. We cannot change what we are, we might not even be able to change who we are. But within the unknown limits of our capacity for decision-making, we can choose what to make of it. That's all anyone can do. It only becomes more obvious in this setup. Which is the whole point.
BTW, I understand the feeling. Miranda has it, too, in the story. You'll see how she deals with it in Chapter 7 (may be a while).

3-Last but certainly not least, Miranda's own assertion that all of her wishes, choices, sacrifices, all of it was programmed into her genetic code by her father. Not being able to distinguish which thoughts are yours and which are there because someone else wanted them to be there. And there's absolutely nothing she can do about it. This is my very own definition of Hell.

In the same vein, who of us knows which of our desires is ours? What exactly is individuality? Do I have a genetic trait that gives me a special ability to detach myself emotionally in debates like this? If it's something I've learned, why have I learned that so well when others haven't? Thinking that something is only yours if it's not encoded in your genes is a flaw, based on a false notion of individuality. Regardless of whether your traits are an accident of nature or a result of engineering, you can accept them or reject them, but you cannot unmake them. Regardless of where it comes from, you may curse your feelings (believe me, I've cursed my capacity for falling in love when I was a teenager more often than not) or you may embrace them. That's all the choice you ever have.

Or perhaps it is not, in a universe like the ME universe. WIth (somatic) genetic modification, you have the means to unmake your own genome to some degree, though it won't unmake your history. If Miranda wanted, she could make sure her father's legacy doesn't survive her generation. But would she want to? Had those traits manifested by accident, wouldn't she appreciate them? So what's different now that her father is dead and it's her choice what to do with his legacy?

BTW, it's funny how this exchange echoes the debates I had with Elyvern when we talked about the big plot of her story.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 octobre 2011 - 07:21 .

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Please note: I am not saying she wouldn't feel what she says she feels. Feeling horrified is to be expected. I am saying she would not make a recommendation in a matter that could affect the fate of the galaxy based on that feeling, but distance herself from it, take a mental step back and think things through - as she was trained to do!

Granted, but training can only take you so far. I don't have any good specific examples but a lot of war stories typically feature hardcore soldiers just losing it. Despite all the training they went through and even some combat which was supposed to numb them to the horrors of war can still break down in situations of extreme stress. Also I don't want to beat this point to death but again I doubt "Wholesale Liquifing Reaper Factory proceedures" is standard Cerberus training

I'd accept it if she'd "lost it". A moment of losing it is indeed understandable. But what I fear - really, really fear - is that this is a sign of where Miranda might go in ME3. I fear it because it - a future pattern of making strategic decisions from sentimentality - would turn her from being my favorite character into someone I despise. 

It would also make her an embodiment of the stereotypical emotional female. away from the competent operative with an air of mystery I fell in love with to The Chick, a woman who embodies social conscience, empathy and who holds the group together. How much that would enrage me is totally beyond the capacity of words to express. If the writers want to do it I can't do anything about it. But I can do my best to make sure they're aware that this is a problem for some of us. That's one reason why I don't shut up about this.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 octobre 2011 - 07:19 .

[Eyeshield21]

Hey I'm back. So what debate or discussion about Miranda or Oriana are we having now?

[Ieldra]

Eyeshield21 wrote...
Hey I'm back. So what debate or discussion about Miranda or Oriana are we having now?

(1) A rehash of Miranda's behaviour at the Collector base
(2) An exchange about Miranda's genetic engineering, based on the last chapter of Elyvern's fanfic Degrees of Inheritance.

[Eyeshield21]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Eyeshield21 wrote...
Hey I'm back. So what debate or discussion about Miranda or Oriana are we having now?

(1) A rehash of Miranda's behaviour at the Collector base
(2) An exchange about Miranda's genetic engineering, based on the last chapter of Elyvern's fanfic Degrees of Inheritance.

Cool, I'll have to read it.
Edit: reading it now.

Modifié par Eyeshield21, 18 octobre 2011 - 07:30 .

[CrutchCricket]

Ah I understand now. Character derailment's indeed a ****. I will rail against unwarranted character change on principle but if it follows a natural progression... I guess it's purely a matter of opinion whether it's good or not. I don't know if I feel as strongly as you about this matter. But  "keep Miranda, Miranda" sounds like a good idea.

If it's a real concern maybe we should all go over to the Kelly thread and get her into a more prominent role. That way ME3 will already have The Chick and two would just be redundant:O

On an unrelated note we seem to have one of the biggest threads on the ME3 character board and definitely the biggest on the front page. Kinda proud of that, even though I only just came in:)