82210 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

Screenshots of interest. Ieldra, I couldn't quite recreate *the* shot, but I hope the attempt is appreciated.

[Ieldra]

Ahhhh.....thanks, jtav. Especially for the first one.

My shot #301 requires you to hit the right tenth of a second, it's really, really hard to get because she's in the process of turning her head. So don't let it bother you, I was incredibly lucky.

BTW, I use Irfanview to cut away superfluous parts of my shots. For instance the bars above and below the images.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 octobre 2011 - 07:40 .

[FeralEwok]

*gawks at Miranda*

What was I about to ask? Oh yes I remember now.

With the redesigns of characters I was wondering what other fans wanted the devs to touch up on Miranda's clothing/armor/gear. That is if most even want anything changed at all.

[CrutchCricket]

FeralEwok wrote...

*gawks at Miranda*

What was I about to ask? Oh yes I remember now.

With the redesigns of characters I was wondering what other fans wanted the devs to touch up on Miranda's clothing/armor/gear. That is if most even want anything changed at all.

Absolutely not! She's perfect just the way she is. You could improve visuals (i.e. animate the hair more, fix whatever messes up her face during animation etc.). But as far as concept? No changes please!

[flemm]

Wow, I get back from class and there is so much I want to respond to, I don't even know where to start...

Beautiful pics, jtav. Guess I'll just start with that

Modifié par flemm, 18 octobre 2011 - 07:45 .

[Nayt Navare]

700 pages, and not even a picture or sentence about Miranda released from Bioware, save a tease here and there, from Mass Effect 3.

I wasn't aware Miranda had such a loyal following. Good to see.

[jtav]

Well, it was asked...

*Proper armor for combat
*Something similar to the black catsuit for casual, with less of a see-through quality
*Fix her jaw and general Uncanny Valley-ness.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
(1) A rehash of Miranda's behaviour at the Collector base

A rehash it may be, but I think it is a natural thing to focus on and debate because, well... pretty much everything about how Miranda is portrayed in ME3 will probably depend largely on that scene... How it is interpreted, what it means, where Miranda goes from there.

I don't agree with all of your views on the subject, Ieldra, but I think you do raise some important points.

[FeralEwok]

jtav wrote...

Well, it was asked...

*Proper armor for combat
*Something similar to the black catsuit for casual, with less of a see-through quality
*Fix her jaw and general Uncanny Valley-ness.

*I would like a combo of armor and clothing. Something that allows for alot of free movement but with more protection.
*I agree about the casual outfit
*Uncanny Valley-ness?

[Ieldra]

Here's another question that just came up in connection with Elyvern's fanfic:

I think we all agree that Shepard's blithe acceptance of his coming back from the dead doesn't ring true.

Miranda has rebuilt Shepard. Given that Shepard might be unsure of the new state of things, with no way to tell where he now fits in the universe, is there any insight Miranda could offer him? I think at this point she knows him better than he knows himself, so even though that kind of thinking isn't exactly her forte, she might have something to say that could help him to get on-track again.

[flemm]

Athayniel wrote...

Just out of curiosity since I hadn't read all 600-odd pages from before I started reading the thread, but has anyone tweeted Mac Walters or Patrick Weekes to ask about the line?

I believe Mac Walters was asked, and the answer was basically, "Desperate times call for desperate measures."

[Eyeshield21]

Nice story from Elyvern, I'm on chapter 2, part 2.
Thanks for passing this along Ieldra.

Modifié par Eyeshield21, 18 octobre 2011 - 08:03 .

[FeralEwok]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's another question that just came up in connection with Elyvern's fanfic:

I think we all agree that Shepard's blithe acceptance of his coming back from the dead doesn't ring true.

Miranda has rebuilt Shepard. Given that Shepard might be unsure of the new state of things, with no way to tell where he now fits in the universe, is there any insight Miranda could offer him? I think at this point she knows him better than he knows himself, so even though that kind of thinking isn't exactly her forte, she might have something to say that could help him to get on-track again.

I've never seen her as being able to hand out advice to others without it being something professional or work related.

Like when she was talking to Oriana in the SB files. She copy and pasted someone else's words

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

Just out of curiosity since I hadn't read all 600-odd pages from before I started reading the thread, but has anyone tweeted Mac Walters or Patrick Weekes to ask about the line?

I believe Mac Walters was asked, and the answer was basically, "Desperate times call for desperate measures."

More like "extreme situations may justify extreme reactions". Which doesn't really say much, but it could mean it's a one-time occurrence. *is optimistic*

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
More like "extreme situations may justify extreme reactions". Which doesn't really say much, but it could mean it's a one-time occurrence. *is optimistic*

Yeah, but to me that is basically a paraphrase of the more common expression.

Xilizhra wrote...
And I think the "betrayal" line comes from her not having truly put her thoughts together yet, about why it would seem like a betrayal to give the base to Cerberus specifically. Her words weren't as controlled as they normally are, but perhaps she could see a future in which TIM would feed more humans into the base. Remember, Miranda knows TIM better than everyone else, and she broke her general loyalty to Cerberus because she saw a dark potential in TIM and this base. I think that now more than ever is a good time to listen to her recommendation, poorly phrased though it may be.

One of the more perceptive comments I can remember reading about the line. And she was probably right. Granted, the fiction could prove her right or wrong at will. But there is every reason to believe it would be a bad idea to let TIM have the base. To me, it honestly would have been more out of character for her not to have figured that out by then, given what she experiences throughout the course of the game.

I do have some sympathy for the idea that she *should* have, in theory, expressed her concerns specifically about Cerberus, but, as I have argued in the past, it's pretty clear from the context that her main concern is Cerberus/TIM using the base, since they/he are the only ones who are going to be able to use it.

Modifié par flemm, 18 octobre 2011 - 08:26 .

[Td1984]

I feel like I'm missing something. What was said about Miri?

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
More like "extreme situations may justify extreme reactions". Which doesn't really say much, but it could mean it's a one-time occurrence. *is optimistic*

Yeah, but to me that is basically a paraphrase of the more common expression.

Does the term "semantic delimitation" mean anything to you? I see nothing similar in concepts you find paraphrasing each other, a situation I don't encounter for the first time in debates with you. Probably the reason why in my opinion, your interpretations sometimes break the limits of the semantically plausible.

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Except that you know, we all are like that. Go far enough back and I have a common ancestor with Hitler. It doesn't bother me because it doesn't mean anything. I understand why people might feel otherwise, but really, what I don't understand is why that feeling doesn't go away once you think about it. It does for me (and hasn't that resulted in cognitive dissonances between Elyvern and me when talking about her story). 

But; if I understood it correctly, I'm by no means a geneticist; unlike natural genetic traits, what Eldfell created won't dilute itself over generations and it actually replaces traits from the other parent. So, we're not just talking about children with superior intelligence (which is undeniably a desirable trait), all Eldfell descendants would be brunnetes with blue eyes, for example. Would they all be female?
Do we really want to lose that much genetic diversity?

We cannot change what we are, we might not even be able to change who we are. But within the unknown limits of our capacity for decision-making, we can choose what to make of it. That's all anyone can do.

 But Eldfell denied them even that. Whatever decisions they made will always be influenced/fall within the confines of the behavioral traits he designed for them.
I would like a clarification about this, actually. How far do they go? Obviously, whatever traits Eldfell put in there do not stop Cordelia from threatening his entire plan.

In the same vein, who of us knows which of our desires is ours? What exactly is individuality? Do I have a genetic trait that gives me a special ability to detach myself emotionally in debates like this? If it's something I've learned, why have I learned that so well when others haven't? Thinking that something is only yours if it's not encoded in your genes is a flaw, based on a false notion of individuality.
Regardless of whether your traits are an accident of nature or a result of engineering, you can accept them or reject them, but you cannot unmake them. Regardless of where it comes from, you may curse your feelings (believe me, I've cursed my capacity for falling in love when I was a teenager more often than not) or you may embrace them. That's all the choice you ever have.

I'm pretty sure we've discussed something similar before.
If your choices in life derivate from a genetic trait or they are result of contact with the world matters little. It's still your individuality.
However, if they are a genetic trait and this particular genetic trait was purposely put in you in order to make sure that you would make this choice and no other, then that makes all the difference.
It won't be your choice anymore, it was the choice of the person who made you this way and you are simply the tool he used.

Or perhaps it is not, in a universe like the ME universe. WIth (somatic) genetic modification, you have the means to unmake your own genome to some degree, though it won't unmake your history. If Miranda wanted, she could make sure her father's legacy doesn't survive her generation. But would she want to? Had those traits manifested by accident, wouldn't she appreciate them? So what's different now that her father is dead and it's her choice what to do with his legacy?

But then we return to the problem I previously mentioned. Does Miranda really have a choice?
I am not referring to obviously benefitial genetic traits like beauty, intelligence, healing, etc. Those bring their own stigma and problems but they can be much more easily overcome. Like Shepard says, what Miranda chose to make with them is what matters.
However, with the revelation of behavioral traits, we have to question ourselves what choices were really Miranda. For example, would she be interested in the advancement of humanity had she been born in a regular way?

[MisterJB]

MisterJB wrote...
 But Eldfell denied them even that. Whatever decisions they made will always be influenced/fall within the confines of the behavioral traits he designed for them.
I would like a clarification about this, actually. How far do they go? Obviously, whatever traits Eldfell put in there do not stop Cordelia from threatening his entire plan.

Oh, and one more thing. Would these behavioral traits extend to the next generations?

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Does the term "semantic delimitation" mean anything to you? I see nothing similar in concepts you find paraphrasing each other, a situation I don't encounter for the first time in debates with you. Probably the reason why in my opinion, your interpretations sometimes break the limits of the semantically plausible.

Ah yes, I was accused of "torturing the meaning of words beyond all recognition," or something along those lines, in the past.

I recall being quite flattered at the time!

I tend to think rather the opposite of certain aspects of the interpretations you favor, by which I mean that you don't take into account the natural flexibility of language. Context is important, words are not always used literally, etc.

Modifié par flemm, 18 octobre 2011 - 08:44 .

[Vertigo_1]

Td1984 wrote...

I feel like I'm missing something. What was said about Miri?

Nothing actually, they were bringing up an old tweet about her betrayal line when I asked Mac Walters (to which he responded with): "Desperate times call for desperate measures, just ask Shepard"

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...
But; if I understood it correctly, I'm by no means a geneticist; unlike natural genetic traits, what Eldfell created won't dilute itself over generations and it actually replaces traits from the other parent. So, we're not just talking about children with superior intelligence (which is undeniably a desirable trait), all Eldfell descendants would be brunnetes with blue eyes, for example. Would they all be female?
Do we really want to lose that much genetic diversity?

Oops. I hope this misunderstanding isn't common. As Cordelia explains, it's only the "natural biotics" genecomplex that propagates itself and won't be diluted. All of Miranda's descendants will be natural biotics, but otherwise as diverse as usual.

But Eldfell denied them even that. Whatever decisions they made will always be influenced/fall within the confines of the behavioral traits he designed for them.
I would like a clarification about this, actually. How far do they go? Obviously, whatever traits Eldfell put in there do not stop Cordelia from threatening his entire plan.

Obviously, they don't go very far. If I may quote: "At puberty, traits like a heightened libido, enhanced fertility in the form of an altered menstrual cycle will come into play" . That's it. Also, from a scientific viewpoint, behavioural traits should be extremely difficult to program reliably, because so much of that is influenced by your upbringing. To take an analogy from morality: you could conceivably program someone to care a great deal about fairness, but you won't be able to influence whether the individual would consider a flat tax rate or a progressive tax rate more fair.

However, if they are a genetic trait and this particular genetic trait was purposely put in you in order to make sure that you would make this choice and no other, then that makes all the difference.
It won't be your choice anymore, it was the choice of the person who made you this way and you are simply the tool he used.

So what's the difference if the trait comes about accidentally? It's still not your choice. You are the slave of fate as you'd otherwise be the slave of another's intentions. You may question the morality of the engineering, but you, as the resulting individual, have the same choices in both scenarios.

But then we return to the problem I previously mentioned. Does Miranda really have a choice?
I am not referring to obviously benefitial genetic traits like beauty, intelligence, healing, etc. Those bring their own stigma and problems but they can be much more easily overcome. Like Shepard says, what Miranda chose to make with them is what matters.
However, with the revelation of behavioral traits, we have to question ourselves what choices were really Miranda. For example, would she be interested in the advancement of humanity had she been born in a regular way?

See above. Our value systems are the results of social interaction in our early years at least as much as genetic engineering. Miranda's very controlled upbringing is a much greater potential problem in that regard than her genetic engineering. Likely, you could genetically program a capacity for empathy or its lack, but whether that ever manifested as a distinct trait would be a result of upbringing.

Also, it's always Miranda's choices. Or lack of them. All too often, we don't have a choice about falling in love. Still every instance of our falling in love is ours. None of us know if we have any freedom at all. If Miranda's decisions are determined by her genes, so are everyone else's. That random chance is behind it in one case and human intention in the other doesn't make the least bit of difference to the freedom, or lack thereof, of the individual.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 octobre 2011 - 08:45 .

[jtav]

Shepard, you do not want to do Miranda's LM now. You want to wait so you can properly pace remaining conversations. And why the hell are you and Miranda getting along so well? Remember Akuze? Control chip? Does none of that matter to you?

I hate it when characters take on a life of their own.

[Eyeshield21]

jtav wrote...

Shepard, you do not want to do Miranda's LM now. You want to wait so you can properly pace remaining conversations. And why the hell are you and Miranda getting along so well? Remember Akuze? Control chip? Does none of that matter to you?

I hate it when characters take on a life of their own.

which characters specifically?

[enayasoul]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
And I am not happy about the loyalty shift one bit.

Well, as MisterJB points out, it's mainly away from TIM, which is why the change eventually manifests itself even if you keep the base (meaning that Shep and TIM are in agreement about the base).

One of the more overlooked aspects of that particular exchange is Miranda's objection to TIM treating her as expendable (something that would especially resonate with her, given her father's treatment of his daughters). 

This helps to explain why the change manifests itself more quickly if you keep the base than if you don't. TIM shows no loyalty to her, whereas Shepard does (in theory at least, by that point). If you keep the base, TIM never has the opportunity to reveal his lack of loyalty to Miranda. Thus she is driven to resign less quickly.

It's a good thing, imo, that Miranda loses her illusions about TIM and what Cerberus stands for (as long as it is operated by him). It's a necessary step for Miranda's character to continue to evolve. Where the writers go with it is another question (totally open, of course, at this point).

In short, Miranda's lines are more about her relationship to TIM, whereas everybody else is just giving advice to Shepard.

EXACTLY how I saw it.   Totally agree with all of this 100%!  :happy: