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"I'll always want you in my life." Miranda Lawson in Mass Effect 3


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#17501
flemm

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jtav wrote...

But does it have to grow by aligning herself with *Shepard?*


My answer would be Yes, mostly. But also somewhat No.

Yes...
*Shepard* is the player, really. It is a positive thing that trust and loyalty develop between Miranda and the player-character. Especially given that most of the Miranda material in the game is devoted to developing this trust (as with other characters). It should pay off, and it does.

Practically speaking, there is no desirable role in the game that does not involve Miranda being allied with the player-character. Perhaps not completely or without reservations, but allied.

The player-character is fighting the Reapers, which is unequivocally also Miranda's goal. Why wouldn't they be allied?

No...
Miranda should continue to have her own agenda, which would not overlap entirely with that of the p-c and might eventually lead to a confrontation at a crucial point in the plot, if the p-c opts to defy Miranda. However, the opposite path should also be in the game.

Example: once Cerberus is defeated, Miranda wants to repurpose the assets and personnel, rather than destroying them. If you don't like it, you have a fight on your hands.

The confrontation part is optional, though. Conceivable, but optional. With the overall goal being the defeat of the Reapers, Miranda is going to be 100% focused on that, and any confrontation would be due to her being convinced that a crucial mistake was being made in the battle against the Reapers.

Modifié par flemm, 18 octobre 2011 - 09:10 .


#17502
Vertigo_1

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jtav wrote...

Shepard, you do not want to do Miranda's LM now. You want to wait so you can properly pace remaining conversations. And why the hell are you and Miranda getting along so well? Remember Akuze? Control chip? Does none of that matter to you?

I hate it when characters take on a life of their own.


Well there's no real evidence to tie her to Akuze...the other stuff well I tend to RP it off as "we didn't get along well at the beginning" and "with something so momentus (and expensive) as bringing someone back to life, it's understandable she would like to have control just to be safe"

Plus I like to talk to EDI about Cerberus and the different cells so I figure, "maybe she wasn't part of that"
Too bad we can't ask her directly.

Then there's the whole "If I'm stuck here I might as well make nice with you"

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 18 octobre 2011 - 09:02 .


#17503
jtav

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No, she wasn't at Akuze, but you'd think her defense of Cerberus would be a sore point, wouldn't you? But noooo, he's turning into a pro-Cerberus man himself. No animosity at all. Heh. Should I let him get what he wants, pacing be damned?

#17504
enayasoul

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flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

Believe me, nothing would delight me more than the resignation not being canon. The only reason I don't want her to be Shepard's enemy is that she'd probably die.


Personally, I think it's important for Miranda to wake up to the fact that Cerberus, as run by TIM, is not what she believes it is or wants it to be. That has to happen, really, at one point or another, for her character to grow.


Yes!  I agree with you Flemm.   A character has to grow and change!  This is a must!  Miranda saw what TIM thought of her and she made that decision whether some people like it or not.  TIM treated her like some expandable tool.  It was a decision that was, I believe, related to how her father treated her.  Miranda's father discarded her sisters.  I think this hit close to home.  And think about all the humans that died because of this base.  I personally DO NOT trust the Illusive man to use the base with any sense of safety or intelligence no matter what safeguards you use.  It's a decision I stand by.  As we know TIM used it regardless of what we chose it seems from the comics.  With the limited amount of information we know.  It doesn't seem to have gone that well if Omega is under attack???

On another note:  I've taken a screen writing class in college.  The major point I learned is characters have to grow and change. 

If you look at how stories/movies are developed there is a point near the end of the second
act that everything that goes wrong goes wrong with the main character.  The character feels
defeated.   This is where the plot would turns in the third act where the character finds the strength and comes back and wins!

How does this relate to Miranda?  She stayed true to her character by objecting to be tossed aside because of past issues.   She was talking to TIM and not Shepard.  True.  Her loyalty did shift.  She says, "You have to work to earn my trust."  Did TIM prove loyal to her? I say no!  Shepard did.  She even remarks, "This is the best team I've been a part of."  

Anyways, this is a touchy subject where I will disagree with her being out of character despite other posters views.  To each their own.
 
;)

#17505
CrutchCricket

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jtav wrote...

No, she wasn't at Akuze, but you'd think her defense of Cerberus would be a sore point, wouldn't you? But noooo, he's turning into a pro-Cerberus man himself. No animosity at all. Heh. Should I let him get what he wants, pacing be damned?


Hmm still wondering why you're so against this. Not everyone's Jack who only sees Cerberus logo and freaks out (also funny to mention Jack seeing as how Miranda admits that project was a mistake to Shepard in private which is about as apologetic as she could get without humbling herself.)

I don't see Shepard as (necessarily) being pro-Cerberus. If you play Renegade maybe although even then it's just a means to an end. And in the end he decides to judge Miranda on her current actions not her past. Gets further as a result too.

#17506
CrutchCricket

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enayasoul wrote...
On another note:  I've taken a screen writing class in college.  The major point I learned is characters have to grow and change. 

If you look at how stories/movies are developed there is a point near the end of the second
act that everything that goes wrong goes wrong with the main character.  The character feels
defeated.   This is where the plot would turns in the third act where the character finds the strength and comes back and wins!

How does this relate to Miranda?  She stayed true to her character by objecting to be tossed aside because of past issues.   She was talking to TIM and not Shepard.  True.  Her loyalty did shift.  She says, "You have to work to earn my trust."  Did TIM prove loyal to her? I say no!  Shepard did.  She even remarks, "This is the best team I've been a part of."  

Anyways, this is a touchy subject where I will disagree with her being out of character despite other posters views.  To each their own.
 
;)


Word!:wizard:

#17507
MisterJB

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Ieldra2 wrote...
Oops. I hope this misunderstanding isn't common. As Cordelia explains, it's only the "natural biotics" genecomplex that propagates itself and won't be diluted. All of Miranda's descendants will be natural biotics, but otherwise as diverse as usual.

I hope it is, maybe I'll feel less stupid.Image IPB

That's it. Also, from a scientific viewpoint, behavioural traits should be extremely difficult to program reliably, because so much of that is influenced by your upbringing. To take an analogy from morality: you could conceivably program someone to care a great deal about fairness, but you won't be able to influence whether the individual would consider a flat tax rate or a progressive tax rate more fair.

Difficult, yes. But that's what fiction is for. If Elyvern had specifically written that Miranda is only pragmatic due to behavioral traits implanted by Eldfell, I'd accept it. I'd be much more interested by the ramifications that such a revelation would have on Miranda's character that in discussing if it's possible.



So what's the difference if the trait comes about accidentally? It's still not your choice. You are the slave of fate as you'd otherwise be the slave of another's intentions. You may question the morality of the engineering, but you, as the resulting individual, have the same choices in both scenarios.

All the difference in the world. If I am a certain way because I was fathered and raised by one couple instead of another then that is still me, my genes, my morals , my individuality. I might not like the way I am, but there's no point in getting angry about it.
But if I am a certain way because of genetic engineering, then my creator replaced what morals I could have had with his own. Even me writing this rigth now would be a consequence of that. I can't imagine a worse fate.

See above. Our value systems are the results of social interaction in our early years at least as much as genetic engineering. Miranda's very controlled upbringing is a much greater potential problem in that regard than her genetic engineering. Likely, you could genetically program a capacity for empathy or its lack, but whether that ever manifested as a distinct trait would be a result of upbringing.
Also, it's always Miranda's choices.

Good to know, honestly. Guess I won't have to request for the fanfic to be changed from "drama" into "horror"

Or lack of them. All too often, we don't have a choice about falling in love. Still every instance of our falling in love is ours. None of us know if we have any freedom at all. If Miranda's decisions are determined by her genes, so are everyone else's. That random chance is behind it in one case and human intention in the other doesn't make the least bit of difference to the freedom, or lack thereof, of the individual.


No but it will affect the way the individual looks at itself and it's actions. The individual can choose to do something and honestly believe that it was the right choice. But it will wonder if it chose that way because it wanted to do so or because the human who created this individual wanted it to choose like that and, under different cirscunstances, would it choose differently.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 octobre 2011 - 09:26 .


#17508
jtav

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Because I'm a writer. I can't help but tell stories, even through playthroughs. And the story I wanted to tell involved him realizing he misjudged her. Only the characters are going off-script. And, as a practical matter, I'm trying to make conversations stretch farther.

#17509
MisterJB

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This one hasn't been posted in a while
Image IPB

#17510
flemm

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Vertigo_1 wrote...

Well there's no real evidence to tie her to Akuze...the other stuff well I tend to RP it off as "we didn't get along well at the beginning" and "with something so momentus (and expensive) as bringing someone back to life, it's understandable she would like to have control just to be safe"


Well, also, I take the control chip thing as partly just Miranda's way of saying "**** off" initially.

#17511
enayasoul

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I think in a sense they (Shepard and Miranda) misjudged each other. Him being Alliance and her being the Cerberus's cheerleader. I was thinking about this the other day. Miranda wasn't looking for a friend but in the end she does find Shepard to be her friend and more if you romanced her. I am sure they would have their disagreements but both would probably compromise on various subjects. They both do want to defeat the Reapers. I think Miranda would help keep Shepard focused on the mission? But we won't know until ME3 rolls around.

#17512
jtav

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Here's what was supposed to happen this game:

S: Cerberus! *growls* I don't trust you!
M: *saves him from thresher maw*
S: Well, I guess *you* aren't so bad...

What happened:

M: *shoots Wilson*
S: Marry me? *wears Cerberus uniform proudly*

#17513
CrutchCricket

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jtav wrote...

Because I'm a writer. I can't help but tell stories, even through playthroughs. And the story I wanted to tell involved him realizing he misjudged her. Only the characters are going off-script. And, as a practical matter, I'm trying to make conversations stretch farther.


Well unfortunately Bioware seems to be going in a different direction from your story. Still, I can relate as I have a similar relationship to the whole of Starcraft 2.  When you get as invested in a story as I do (and as you do apparently), you start continuing it in your head. 12 years is a long time to wait for a game and a really long time to continue the story and fill in the details. Obviously what came out is about as different from what I wanted as you get. So yeah, it sucks. Still Bioware isn't Blizzard, we're not waiting 12 years (I hope:?) and I don't think we'll be disappointed.

#17514
BancsBubbl3

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Ieldra2 wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
Wouldn't she though? I understand she's pragmatic and all but that's a farcry from being a combination of Spock/The Terminator. Also I think the exact nature of base is quite relevant here. We're not talking about picking up a gun and shooting someone or shoving someone out an airlock here. We're talking about the wholesale liquification of human beings for the purpose of creating a cosmic horror. The only purpose of the whole thing I might add (this was part of my PM). I think we're in a slightly different league from a few simple "murder for science" scenarios. Also note that for a lot of the more horrific crap Cerberus has pulled, TIM has been able to claim plausible deniability and Miranda has downright disavowed them (example: Subject Zero). Is she playing dumb/compassionate in those cases, merely claiming plausible deniability like TIM? Possibly. Is she deliberately in the dark (Cerberus cells have no communcation with each other) about them and thus showing genuine feeling when she says they're a bad idea?  Also a possibility.
Furthermore I think she's plenty sentimental as evidenced by her romance. The fact that it's optional and some people never do it is irrelevant. The point is that had they pursued it this is how she would've reacted is sufficient proof of the possibility of sentimentality. Thus it is not inconceivable that faced with a cosmic horror factory that her boss wants to just take over (really desperately I might add) she might express some real doubts beyond just "it could be bad for business".

Please note: I am not saying she wouldn't feel what she says she feels. Feeling horrified is to be expected. I am saying she would not make a recommendation in a matter that could affect the fate of the galaxy based on that feeling, but distance herself from it, take a mental step back and think things through - as she was trained to do!

Another thing: she says "using *anything* from this base feels like a betrayal". I can't look into her head, but that's so un-Miranda-Like that I really thought they'd given her the wrong line by accident. So suddenly, taking stuff away from the base for study is a betrayal? WTF? One way or the other, that stuff needs to be studied, and Miranda knows it. Had the derelict Reaper survived, it would have been totally OK. But to throw away even the slightest chance of understanding more about the Reapers for a mere sentiment? Sorry, I don't buy it. Whoever wrote that line didn't know what he was doing.

Also, being emotional in a romance is not being sentimental. Romance is *about* emotion. And it affects just the two of them, so it's not at all problematic to give her emotions more leeway in the romance. The same, however, cannot be said of the CB decision. The strategic implication are huge, she wouldn't just ignore them. 


I think the betrayal line didn't actually have anything to do with Cerberus or Shepard. The way I perceived it was that, after everything they had done to stop the Collectors, for her, it would be a betrayal to the human race to use a piece of technology, no matter how advanced or powerful, which had so gruesomely terrorized humanity.

In other words: She had doubts about using a piece of technology that they had so devotedly been hunting down to destroy.

Not only that, but Miranda did have doubts about even considering to open Grunts tank. And if you campare that to the Collector base...

Remember, this just my perception.

Modifié par BancsBubbl3, 18 octobre 2011 - 11:07 .


#17515
CrutchCricket

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jtav wrote...

Here's what was supposed to happen this game:

S: Cerberus! *growls* I don't trust you!
M: *saves him from thresher maw*
S: Well, I guess *you* aren't so bad...

What happened:

M: *shoots Wilson*
S: Marry me? *wears Cerberus uniform proudly*


Wasn't it more like:
S:-_-
M: Wake up! We gotta go or we're gonna blow up!
S: Ok I guess that makes sense
Later...
M: *shoots Wilson*
S: WTF??
M: Spycheck (bam TF2 reference!)
S: Oh I guess that makes sense.
TIM: You gotta fight the collectors.
S: **** that! Cerberus sucks!
TIM: We can give you the Normandy and Joker back. Also the reapers are still coming and you'd be dead without us.
S: Oh. I guess that makes sense.
M: Don't talk to me.
S: ...
Much later...
M: Wow you saved my sister and you're totally commited to this mission. I guess you're not an opportunistic douchebag after all.
S: Wow you have genuine feelings and you really want to make a difference. I guess you aren't an complete monster ice queen **** after all.
M: Cool. Now what?
S: I should go.

#17516
MisterJB

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CrutchCricket wrote...
M: Cool. Now what?

S: Sexy Time!

#17517
flemm

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BancsBubbl3 wrote...

Not only that, but Miranda did have doubts about even considering to open Grunts tank. And if you campare that to the Collector base...

Remember, this just my perception.


Well, I think you make some solid points.

In fairness to Ieldra and others who don't like that particular line of dialogue, the real complaint is not so much that she's in favor of destroying the base, but that she doesn't explain, for example, what you explain: keeping the base is too risky, especially with TIM likely to have control over it.

Her thought-process is not especially clear on the specific point of destroying the base. In that sense, it is a bit of a cliffhanger for the character, which will only really be resolved in ME3.

In other respects, such as on the question of her loyalty to the TIM, the dialogue is easier to interpret: she realizes that her loyalty to him as an individual, and to the organisation he runs, has been misplaced. This was probably the main focus in the writers' minds.

Modifié par flemm, 18 octobre 2011 - 11:03 .


#17518
BancsBubbl3

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flemm wrote...

BancsBubbl3 wrote...

Not only that, but Miranda did have doubts about even considering to open Grunts tank. And if you campare that to the Collector base...

Remember, this just my perception.


Well, I think you make some solid points.

In fairness to Ieldra and others who don't like that particular line of dialogue, the real complaint is not so much that she's in favor of destroying the base, but that she doesn't explain, for example, what you explain: keeping the base is too risky, especially with TIM likely to have control over it.

Her thought-process is not especially clear on the specific point of destroying the base. In that sense, it is a bit of a cliffhanger for the character, which will only really be resolved in ME3.

In other respects, such as on the question of her loyalty to the TIM, the dialogue is easier to interpret: she realizes that her loyalty to him as an individual, and to the organisation he runs, has been misplaced. This was probably the main focus in the writers' minds.


True that. I guess we won't really know the answer until ME3 comes out. However, I doubt that Bioware would leave a line unspecified like that on purpose; it's just not like them... I think.

Modifié par BancsBubbl3, 18 octobre 2011 - 11:17 .


#17519
flemm

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jtav wrote...

M: *shoots Wilson*
S: Marry me?


That's pretty much how it went in my first playthrough ;)

#17520
jtav

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And mine, making allowance for the fact that I was playing FemShep at the time. I suppose, at the end of the day, I don't like relationships born of rivalry. He likes her. She likes him. They gel. It's not complicated.

#17521
Dr. Doctor

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jtav wrote...

Here's what was supposed to happen this game:

S: Cerberus! *growls* I don't trust you!
M: *saves him from thresher maw*
S: Well, I guess *you* aren't so bad...

What happened:

M: *shoots Wilson*
S: Marry me? *wears Cerberus uniform proudly*


So pretty much "Damnit Miranda, I hate you and all that you stand for and yet I love you"?

Right now the issue that I'm having with my Winter Soldier-inspired Shepard is that no matter what I do there isn't any way to be allied with Cerberus in ME3. My plan was that I was going to take my Spacer/War Hero character who during ME1 was a goody two-shoes Paragon and then throw him into a world that either thinks he's crazy, a traitor, or both.

Meanwhile, Cerberus not only believes in the Reapers but they also give him a ship and a crew. While working for Cerberus might not carry the same honor and glory that serving the Aliiance did, from where Shepard's standing things look pretty good. Of course now that Cerberus is relegated to being our enemy in ME3 that whole line of thinking went out the window.

#17522
jtav

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Look at it this way: ME3 is when Winter Soldier turns back into Bucky. But I'll be doing everything I can to sabotage the Alliance in ME3. James Shepard's loyalty isn't to the Alliance or humanity. They sold him up the river. They only reason the galaxy is worth saving is the men and women of Lazarus Cell. They are his crew and his family.

#17523
MisterJB

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Dr. Doctor wrote...
Right now the issue that I'm having with my Winter Soldier-inspired Shepard is that no matter what I do there isn't any way to be allied with Cerberus in ME3. My plan was that I was going to take my Spacer/War Hero character who during ME1 was a goody two-shoes Paragon and then throw him into a world that either thinks he's crazy, a traitor, or both.

Meanwhile, Cerberus not only believes in the Reapers but they also give him a ship and a crew. While working for Cerberus might not carry the same honor and glory that serving the Aliiance did, from where Shepard's standing things look pretty good. Of course now that Cerberus is relegated to being our enemy in ME3 that whole line of thinking went out the window.

I have a Shepard who is exaclty like that, down to the point of him being a Spacer/War Hero.
I'm still waiting to see what kind of roleplaying options we will be offered in ME3 regarding the Alliance and Cerberus. 

#17524
jtav

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More screenshots, this time from the aftermath of Jacob's LM.

Image IPB

Image IPB

#17525
enayasoul

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Great screen shots. Miranda looks so sad when she looks at Jacob. Awww