82210 réponses à ce sujet

[flemm]

enayasoul wrote...
I don't see what's so wrong with that cliche'... women are doing that right now.  Having a career, family and being sexy...  Why can't she be a kick-ass operative with family and looking sexy doing it?

If she does all that at once, then I think we're good. The cliché would be more like giving up her career to do the other things.

Don't think it's likely because, as you say, her career is basically kicking ass, and you know she is going to be doing her share of that in a game like this 

But I guess the fear would be more that Miranda's motivations change too much. Like she loses her edge, basically.

Modifié par flemm, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:45 .

[Bran187]

jtav wrote...

Bran, have you read the Origin EULA. I'm concerned about my privacy, which I rate rather higher than even Miranda.

Sorry im a couple of pages beind. Forgive me. lol

That is a much more valid concern i was expecting. I thought you were another person upset about it not being on steam (there is alot of this going around because of BF3 and the Crysis 2 incident). Sorry for jumping to conclusions. But yeah i get what you were saying now, Privacy is more important.

No i havent read it, hopefully they arent doing anything to shady. I have Origin on my machine from the BF3 beta... XD

[Quething]

Just a quick point before the topic moves completely on, and I know I'm being a bit "no true Scotsman" here, but anyone who dumps Miranda for Ash in ME3 because Ash is "hot now" isn't an Ash fan any more than they're a Miranda fan, and is just as irritating to those of us who genuinely like the Chief.

I think scars would be interesting for Miranda from a storytelling perspective. A lot of her self-image is tied up in her various varieties of perfection, physical included. A permanent marring of that physical perfection could cause her to make an interesting re-evaluation of her worth, and could be a good catalyst for shaking some of her self-esteem issues down to their foundations.

Hard to justify in-universe, though, it's true, given Shep's reconstruction and that 50-grand platinum facelift machine sitting in the medbay.

Of course, Garrus still hasn't used it...

[flemm]

Quething wrote...
Hard to justify in-universe, though, it's true, given Shep's reconstruction and that 50-grand platinum facelift machine sitting in the medbay.

Of course, Garrus still hasn't used it...

Nothing shall stand in the way of the plot...

Modifié par flemm, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:59 .

[Dr. Doctor]

I'm actually liking the idea of Miranda's class being called Cerberus Renegade, it just sounds awesome. As for a slightly more banged-up battle-worn Miranda that would also be interesting to see.

Miranda: Life these past few months has been a little rougher than I'm used to.

Shepard: Rougher than going on a suicide mission?

Miranda: Other than being hunted by my former colleagues, and spending weeks in some of the wost hellholes that the Terminus has to offer it was about on par with our little jaunt through through the Omega-4 relay.

Shepard: I have to admit I sort of think the burned agent asthetic looks good on you.

Miranda: Oh, you mean the 'I haven't slept in days' look?

Shepard: I thought that was reserved for the Illusive Man's quarterly reports?

Miranda: (chuckles) You ass.

[Bran187]

Quething wrote...

Just a quick point before the topic moves completely on, and I know I'm being a bit "no true Scotsman" here, but anyone who dumps Miranda for Ash in ME3 because Ash is "hot now" isn't an Ash fan any more than they're a Miranda fan, and is just as irritating to those of us who genuinely like the Chief.

Wait Ash is gonna be hot in ME3? Im switching camps! lol 

I never really liked Ash's charactor. It has nothing to do with looks. I can genuinely say that i just straight up like Miranda's charactor more. Yes her looks are a plus. But thats not the reason i like her charactor. If they were to switch bodies i would still pick Miri over Ash.

[Td1984]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

jtav wrote...

Here's what was supposed to happen this game:

S: Cerberus! *growls* I don't trust you!
M: *saves him from thresher maw*
S: Well, I guess *you* aren't so bad...

What happened:

M: *shoots Wilson*
S: Marry me? *wears Cerberus uniform proudly*

So pretty much "Damnit Miranda, I hate you and all that you stand for and yet I love you"?

Right now the issue that I'm having with my Winter Soldier-inspired Shepard is that no matter what I do there isn't any way to be allied with Cerberus in ME3. My plan was that I was going to take my Spacer/War Hero character who during ME1 was a goody two-shoes Paragon and then throw him into a world that either thinks he's crazy, a traitor, or both.

Meanwhile, Cerberus not only believes in the Reapers but they also give him a ship and a crew. While working for Cerberus might not carry the same honor and glory that serving the Aliiance did, from where Shepard's standing things look pretty good. Of course now that Cerberus is relegated to being our enemy in ME3 that whole line of thinking went out the window.

Cue Three Days Grace's "I Hate Everything About You."

[drakmoor]

enayasoul wrote...

I don't see what's so wrong with that cliche'... women are doing that right now.  Having a career, family and being sexy...  Why can't she be a kick-ass operative with family and looking sexy doing it?  :wub:

I think that jtav is not worried about Miranda having a family (LoTSB dossier issue aside) its they are worried that Miranda will drop a very promising career as one of (if not the) top agent in a covert scientific and paramilitary organization to focus soley on having a family and being sexy all because Shepard entered her life.

Modifié par drakmoor, 19 octobre 2011 - 04:43 .

[enayasoul]

I see your point drakmoor. That would be a shame. Miranda is VERY good at what she does.

[Shotokanguy]

jtav wrote...

I'm under no illusions that I own or control any character.

I didn't think you did, but I just wanted you to know what your posts might look like to others. You've even implied a few times that you might care too much.

[Arijharn]

I'm not sure how having a scar is supposed to sell the whole "they live in dangerous times" vibe even more so than the simple fact that a galactic war is going on. It just seems a bit redundant to me.

I actually think having a scar to do this would actually be pretty lazy in a way. "I have gone through a traumatic part in my life. You can tell because I have a scar!" It's just cliche.

[alxboss78]

I see a lot of people in here who get upset over Miranda's resignation from Cerberus and cry foul on the writers. The fact though remains (as mentioned in her storyline) that the reason she went to Cerberus and TIM in the first place is protection. It's the feeling of safety that she was looking for (primarily) and of course afterwards the feeling of belonging, of being needed and later on of being the best at what she did. Therein lies the reason of her loyalty to TIM. It's not the political beliefs, it's not the way he does things and it's not a feeling of affection. He offered her something, she felt indebted to him and his organisation (also later on she felt useful and needed) and therefore was loyal to him.

So it is very easy to imagine that when someone like Shepard comes along, who represents a different way of doing things (Paragon Shepard does) and offers her exactly the same things as TIM, helps her with her sister and makes her feel that he really needs her and not that he just uses her as a tool, she would feel a lot more loyal to him. If you also add the romance angle then that switch of loyalties is even more logical and understandable.

The only problem with this storyline (because it is a game) is that it happens very fast. If this story happened in a novel or in real time, it would have taken months, so this switch might then have felt more organic, than it did in the game. However that doesn't mean that it is not realistic, logical and what would most probably have happened at that time.

Oh and Miranda is not always pragmatic and cold and calculating. When something is too close to home, she uses her "heart" or if you like she makes more emotional decisions than when she is acting on a mission that does not directly affect her (ex. her relationship to Shepard and of course her lyalty mission).

EDIT: Sorry if this has been discussed many times...

Modifié par alxboss78, 19 octobre 2011 - 06:43 .

[Skullheart]

About Miranda having scars, I wouldn't mind if she gets a scar in her chest or abdomen. It would remind me characters like Misato (Evangelion) and The Boss (MGS3).

[drwells123]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Hmm. Unless she's ended up in the trenches I don't think disfigurment is warranted. Oh and another note. If you're coming at this from the "she used to live in comfort but now she's in battle all the time" angle, it might be interesting to see that another way- namely if she looks more underfed, dirtier, slouched, weaker looking etc. Those kinds of subtle changes would tell a world more than some scars.

*edit- gotta watch those double negatives...<_<

There's a fic where she gets dragged into one of Wrex's brushfire wars on Tuchanka and comes out of it thoroughly filthy and bedraggled. I confess to thinking it would look good on her

Would be interesting to see how she'd react to being scarred/disfigured (assuming it couldn't be fixed with the med-bay upgrade). I could even see it as liberating, since her looks were just one more thing her father paid for, as she put it. Maybe there would be a period of - not self-doubt, but uncertainty, after which she could more easily see her accomplishments as her own.

Arijharn wrote...

I'm not sure how having a scar is supposed to sell the whole "they live in dangerous times" vibe even more so than the simple fact that a galactic war is going on. It just seems a bit redundant to me.

I actually think having a scar to do this would actually be pretty lazy in a way. "I have gone through a traumatic part in my life. You can tell because I have a scar!" It's just cliche.

Scarring is the new dead parents!

Modifié par drwells123, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:25 .

[Bran187]

alxboss78 wrote...

I see a lot of people in here who get upset over Miranda's resignation from Cerberus and cry foul on the writers. The fact though remains (as mentioned in her storyline) that the reason she went to Cerberus and TIM in the first place is protection. It's the feeling of safety that she was looking for (primarily) and of course afterwards the feeling of belonging, of being needed and later on of being the best at what she did. Therein lies the reason of her loyalty to TIM. It's not the political beliefs, it's not the way he does things and it's not a feeling of affection. He offered her something, she felt indebted to him and his organisation (also later on she felt useful and needed) and therefore was loyal to him.

So it is very easy to imagine that when someone like Shepard comes along, who represents a different way of doing things (Paragon Shepard does) and offers her exactly the same things as TIM, helps her with her sister and makes her feel that he really needs her and not that he just uses her as a tool, she would feel a lot more loyal to him. If you also add the romance angle then that switch of loyalties is even more logical and understandable.

The only problem with this storyline (because it is a game) is that it happens very fast. If this story happened in a novel or in real time, it would have taken months, so this switch might then have felt more organic, than it did in the game. However that doesn't mean that it is not realistic, logical and what would most probably have happened at that time.

Oh and Miranda is not always pragmatic and cold and calculating. When something is too close to home, she uses her "heart" or if you like she makes more emotional decisions than when she is acting on a mission that does not directly affect her (ex. her relationship to Shepard and of course her lyalty mission).

EDIT: Sorry if this has been discussed many times...

EXACTLY!!!! Don't trust your first impression's about miranda. Get to know her. Nuff said.

[Ieldra]

enayasoul wrote...
How does this relate to Miranda?  She stayed true to her character by objecting to be tossed aside because of past issues.   She was talking to TIM and not Shepard.  True.  Her loyalty did shift.  She says, "You have to work to earn my trust."  Did TIM prove loyal to her? I say no!  Shepard did.  She even remarks, "This is the best team I've been a part of."

The problem is this: there is absolutely no indication that Miranda's exchange with TIM at the CB is about loyalty and how he has used her as an expendable  tool and doesn't deserve her loyalty anymore. Believe me, I would love to interpret it that way, but really it isn't. Her "betrayal" line is about the base and nothing else, and if it's that, it's out of character.

Besides, TIM actually has NOT treated her as an expendable tool. He treats Shepard that way when he orders Miranda to prevent Shepard from destroying the base, but not Miranda. She has no reason to resent TIM in that regard. He didn't even lie to her as far as we know. No, he didn't tell her everything he does, but he is not required to by any standard. Also in an organization like Cerberus, you get  information on a need-to-know basis. Miranda would have no reason at all to resent him for not telling her about his other operations.

That Cerberus isn't exactly what Miranda thought it was, and that she starts to see that, is a plausible speculation about the reason why she resigns, but again, that's not what the exchange at the base is about.  Again, I would like it if it was, but clearly it isn't. If you interpret it that way, I would like to see - in great detail - how you draw this interpretation from what's actually said at the base between her and TIM.

@flemm:
This is also adressed to you. To me it seems as if you completely ignore what's actually said at the base in order to put your more in-character interpretation in. You ignore that Miranda's "betrayal" line actually contradicts your interpretation of the scene. I wish it wasn't so, for then I could make my peace with that thrice-damned line which has become my most hated line in both games of any character, but I can't see it.

[alxboss78]

Ieldra2, the problem i find with what you write above is that you take one sentence (and not the whole of the sentence at that... it's mainly the "anything" from that sentence... so basically one word) and then say "oh.. the shift in her character is too abrupt, inexplicable and ultimately out of character". The point is that you are right about that one word. The "anything" used in that sentence IS used incorrectly and it is something that Miranda and Shepard for that matter, would not say. However everything we have seen from Miranda up to that point and everything she says, justifies entirely her ultimate decision of resignation and siding with Shepard (coupled with the explanation i mentioned in my previous email).

So bottom line if you want to cry foul over that one word used... ok by all means do it. However it's not enough based on all the wonderful rest that the writers have given us...

[Athayniel]

jtav wrote...

And mine, making allowance for the fact that I was playing FemShep at the time. I suppose, at the end of the day, I don't like relationships born of rivalry. He likes her. She likes him. They gel. It's not complicated.

I know that this is a bit late, I blame you guys continuing these conversations when I have to go to bed. It's really rather thoughtless of all of you, I must say. Anyways... What if it's Shep likes Miri and Miri likes Shep, but niether of them likes that they like the other. That's usually where rivalmances live.

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

So what's the difference if the trait comes about accidentally? It's still not your choice. You are the slave of fate as you'd otherwise be the slave of another's intentions. You may question the morality of the engineering, but you, as the resulting individual, have the same choices in both scenarios.

All the difference in the world. If I am a certain way because I was fathered and raised by one couple instead of another then that is still me, my genes, my morals , my individuality. I might not like the way I am, but there's no point in getting angry about it.
But if I am a certain way because of genetic engineering, then my creator replaced what morals I could have had with his own. Even me writing this rigth now would be a consequence of that. I can't imagine a worse fate.

There's no point in getting angry about it either way, unless the engineered trait is undesirable in any objective sense or if the engineer could have foreseen you would resent it. Imagine a world where genetic engineering is common and reasonably cheap. You might as well resent your parents for NOT having put certain modifications in that you might find desirable. What about cases like this: "Why did you make me like this? I do not want to care about other humans as much as I do. It's painful."

Admittedly behavioural modifications present a special problem from a moral point of view, and have a potential of impinging on your feeling of individuality more than physical modifications. That's why I argued against including them when discussing the outline of this chapter with Elyvern. Also, in a different context, this "heightened libido" thing could come straight out of male fantasies with a potential to come across as really creepy. However, in the mild form Elyvern implemented this, the modifications manifest as a slight preference that you could, if you knew of it, ignore if you wanted to. Miranda now knows. How will she deal with it? That's one of the questions that will be answered in the last chapter. Recall the story title: "Degrees of Inheritance". It's been always about this in this story.

Or lack of them. All too often, we don't have a choice about falling in love. Still every instance of our falling in love is ours. None of us know if we have any freedom at all. If Miranda's decisions are determined by her genes, so are everyone else's. That random chance is behind it in one case and human intention in the other doesn't make the least bit of difference to the freedom, or lack thereof, of the individual.

No but it will affect the way the individual looks at itself and it's actions. The individual can choose to do something and honestly believe that it was the right choice. But it will wonder if it chose that way because it wanted to do so or because the human who created this individual wanted it to choose like that and, under different cirscunstances, would it choose differently.

And doesn't bring this home the possibility that our beliefs may not be ours in the first place, if you follow that reasoning to its end? How much is there to our vaunted freedom in the first place? We do not know. Do we want to know that we are not free? I think we are approaching this from a philosophical viewpoint that will become outdated in a rather short time in the real world.

Also, I'm surprised you didn't jump on the problems presented by Miranda's controlled upbringing. Or is that because everyone who has children feels they have the right to indoctrinate their children with their beliefs? Isn't that kind of programming even worse than genetic engineering, because you might twist them against built-in preferences, overriding what they would want if their genetic preferences were allowed to express themselves?

[enayasoul]

Ieldra2 wrote...

enayasoul wrote...
How does this relate to Miranda?  She stayed true to her character by objecting to be tossed aside because of past issues.   She was talking to TIM and not Shepard.  True.  Her loyalty did shift.  She says, "You have to work to earn my trust."  Did TIM prove loyal to her? I say no!  Shepard did.  She even remarks, "This is the best team I've been a part of."

The problem is this: there is absolutely no indication that Miranda's exchange with TIM at the CB is about loyalty and how he has used her as an expendable  tool and doesn't deserve her loyalty anymore. Believe me, I would love to interpret it that way, but really it isn't. Her "betrayal" line is about the base and nothing else, and if it's that, it's out of character.

Besides, TIM actually has NOT treated her as an expendable tool. He treats Shepard that way when he orders Miranda to prevent Shepard from destroying the base, but not Miranda. She has no reason to resent TIM in that regard. He didn't even lie to her as far as we know. No, he didn't tell her everything he does, but he is not required to by any standard. Also in an organization like Cerberus, you get  information on a need-to-know basis. Miranda would have no reason at all to resent him for not telling her about his other operations.

That Cerberus isn't exactly what Miranda thought it was, and that she starts to see that, is a plausible speculation about the reason why she resigns, but again, that's not what the exchange at the base is about.  Again, I would like it if it was, but clearly it isn't. If you interpret it that way, I would like to see - in great detail - how you draw this interpretation from what's actually said at the base between her and TIM.

@flemm:
This is also adressed to you. To me it seems as if you completely ignore what's actually said at the base in order to put your more in-character interpretation in. You ignore that Miranda's "betrayal" line actually contradicts your interpretation of the scene. I wish it wasn't so, for then I could make my peace with that thrice-damned line which has become my most hated line in both games of any character, but I can't see it.

Interesting... but you sound as if you completely INDOCTRINATED by CERBERUS.    Maybe you are from all the proCerberus propaganda and how you don't want Miranda to change from YOUR ULTIMATE vision.   All of what you've said is your opinion and I really don't have to agree with any of it.  Like you don't have to agree with me.  We both see and interpret it in different ways. You can rant and rave on how you want her to be or how she will only do this or that. I'm sorry but each and everyone of us Miranda fans see it differently and roleplay the game in different ways.  I hope you can understand that and accept other peoples take on it.

TIM uses EVERYONE as his expendable tool.  The Cerberus Cells are USED to push ahead HIS agenda.  They all being given spoonfuls of whatever bull**** TIM wants to give them on his payroll.  He is the great manipulator.  He manipulates the situation for his outcome.  If you watched his behavior at all on the CB you'll notice that he is greedy and desparate and looking out for his own interests.  He could care less about humanity being experimented on and killed all in the name of science and the preservation of humanity.  What bull****.    He shows his cards at the Collector Base plain and simple.  Who subjects humans to death by exploiting them by experimenting on them just to understand the enemy? Really?  Who leads them into ambush one after another?  "Oh well Shepard, you can handle any harm I put in your way."  blah blah...  He could care less if they survived the suicide mission.   In the latest book, he manipulates Aria the way HE wanted distorting facts.   He's a great villian. 

The list can go on and on but I'm off to work. See ya when I get back. I'm sure you'll have more to talk about and try to convince me in your way of thinking but I've heard it all... since day 1 of this threads creation.  Thanks.

Modifié par enayasoul, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:20 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The problem is this: there is absolutely no indication that Miranda's exchange with TIM at the CB is about loyalty and how he has used her as an expendable  tool and doesn't deserve her loyalty anymore.

What about the part where she says, "Or what? You'll replace me next?"

[Ieldra]

alxboss78 wrote...
So bottom line if you want to cry foul over that one word used... ok by all means do it. However it's not enough based on all the wonderful rest that the writers have given us...

To make it short: I don't want to see a pattern of Miranda making strategic decisions based on sentimentality in ME3.

Her "betrayal" line raised that fear. It sounds too much like those people who say that the (potentially beneficial) results of the n*zi experiments in the concentration camps shouldn't be used (I believe it was intentionally written to recall that, given that internal documents refer to Cerberus as "n*zi scientists"). Personally, I find that stupid but I can see where they're coming from. In the scenario we face in ME2, however, that's a luxury we cannot afford and I simply cannot believe that Miranda would ever make such a sentiment even a minor consideration in her decision-making.   

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is this: there is absolutely no indication that Miranda's exchange with TIM at the CB is about loyalty and how he has used her as an expendable  tool and doesn't deserve her loyalty anymore.

What about the part where she says, "Or what? You'll replace me next?"

That's *after* she says her line. By then, TIM has proven that he treats Shepard as an expendable tool. That brings home to her that she might be next and plausibly leads to her resignation. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the reason she gives for disagreeing with TIM in the first place.

[enayasoul]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

The problem is this: there is absolutely no indication that Miranda's exchange with TIM at the CB is about loyalty and how he has used her as an expendable  tool and doesn't deserve her loyalty anymore.

What about the part where she says, "Or what? You'll replace me next?"

Exactly!  But Ieldra2 doesn't even hear that because she doesn't take Miranda to the base remember?  Miranda is more intelligent and a big girl. Miranda can say whatever she wants and does to express her point of view.   Even with Jacob's loyalty mission she oversteps her bounds with TIM because Miranda values her relationship with Jacob and keeps the promise she's made to him dispite the ramifications that come later if any.

The Illusive man wanted Shepard to be stopped! Discarded.  Miranda understood his command and knew if he was so easily this careless with throwing away Shepard after all the billions he spend on his "resurrection"  who is to say that he wouldn't do the same to her.  So yes, I see that as a loyalty shift.  Take or leave it.  It's there, if you WANT to see it.  

[alxboss78]

Ieldra2 wrote...

alxboss78 wrote...
So bottom line if you want to cry foul over that one word used... ok by all means do it. However it's not enough based on all the wonderful rest that the writers have given us...

To make it short: I don't want to see a pattern of Miranda making strategic decisions based on sentimentality in ME3.

Her "betrayal" line raised that fear. It sounds too much like those people who say that the (potentially beneficial) results of the n*zi experiments in the concentration camps shouldn't be used (I believe it was intentionally written to recall that, given that internal documents refer to Cerberus as "n*zi scientists"). Personally, I find that stupid but I can see where they're coming from. In the scenario we face in ME2, however, that's a luxury we cannot afford and I simply cannot believe that Miranda would ever make such a sentiment even a minor consideration in her decision-making.   

The important part of what you wrote above is : "I don't want to see"

Ok on that bases we can discuss. If it is a matter of personal preference. But personal preference doesn't make for a universal truth as you very well know. Like i wrote in my previous post, Miranda is not foreign to making "sentimental" decisions. She has made them and will continue to make them. Wether they will be the majority, minority, or whether they will be apt for a specific situation that is another topic and one that we will have to wait and see.

Based on the progression her character makes down the paragon path, i see no fault in logic. ok... like i said i will give you the inapropriate use of "anything" in that phrase, but that's the extent of the fault on the writers part. All the rest is quite well done and fitting to the situations they find themselves in...