82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
And mine, making allowance for the fact that I was playing FemShep at the time. I suppose, at the end of the day, I don't like relationships born of rivalry. He likes her. She likes him. They gel. It's not complicated.

I like that their relationship has an element of challenge, like in the Renegade romance scene with the kiss. Funny how she says "It's not a competition" when it's very clear it is, in some way. But the pacing of the conversations is strictly metagaming. In my headcanon, they come to like each other almost immediately and must only get over some emotional obstacles and different loyalties. In the end, Cyrus Shepard even come to share their loyalties: not Alliance, not Cerberus. The Lazarus cell, i.e. the crew of the SR2, plus EDI and what remains of the team, that's what keeps their path from being only about duty.

[_FLANDERS]

Some day I will get right with Miranda and shepard for now I will still work on it.

[_FLANDERS]

WHen they talk afer they return to the ship I am still trying to work out how to move them forward, Tell me how on Xbox and playstation. Help

[Ieldra]

alxboss78 wrote...
Based on the progression her character makes down the paragon path, i see no fault in logic. ok... like i said i will give you the inapropriate use of "anything" in that phrase, but that's the extent of the fault on the writers part. All the rest is quite well done and fitting to the situations they find themselves in...

I don't like to repeat myself but no, she does definitely not make a progression down the Paragon path, if you discount her recommendation at the CB and especially if you avoid the confrontation with TIM. Basically, what she says there is the only indicator that something in her thinking might have changed. Her recommendations throughout the main plot missions are all Renegade. Except for this. 

Given that the decision about the base is a big one and made under stressful circumstances, I can live with her recommendation to destroy it, but her "betrayal" line is character assassination, plain and simple.   

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Seems like there's a lot of people ready to dump Miranda for Ash. I'm not surprised, but frustrated as someone who likes Miranda for her personality.

There are?

Hmph. Does that show their preference for Miranda was based on nothing more than her being hot, or does it mean they jump ship because they know Ashley will have a big presence in ME3 while Miranda may not?

Here's another conspiracy theory: is Miranda's revelation intentionally delayed to draw people away from her to Ashley, exactly because Miranda will have a lesser presence?

Ugh......I'm pessimistic again. But it doesn't matter. I want Miranda back quite a bit more than I want Ashley back. A simple redesign isn't going to change that.

[Ieldra]

BancsBubbl3 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Oops. I hope this misunderstanding isn't common. As Cordelia explains, it's only the "natural biotics" genecomplex that propagates itself and won't be diluted. All of Miranda's descendants will be natural biotics, but otherwise as diverse as usual.

Just realised this. Miranda can't have children and therefore won't have any descendants. It says so in the LOTSB dossiers. Unless she ends up with an Asari.

We were talking about Miranda in Elyvern's after-the-Reapers fanfic Degrees of Inheritance. There her infertility has been accidentally cured by - of all things - Reaper nanotech she used in a test of an inoculation against indoctrination she developed, with herself as the experimental subject. 

As for Miranda in ME3, we'll see how it goes. I'm hoping for a hint she might use an offshoot of Lazarus to reverse her infertility, or circumvent it by advanced reproductive technology. Epilogue stuff strictly, though. No children, pregnancies etc. in the main game of ME3.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Arijharn]

Athayniel wrote...

jtav wrote...

And mine, making allowance for the fact that I was playing FemShep at the time. I suppose, at the end of the day, I don't like relationships born of rivalry. He likes her. She likes him. They gel. It's not complicated.

I know that this is a bit late, I blame you guys continuing these conversations when I have to go to bed. It's really rather thoughtless of all of you, I must say. Anyways... What if it's Shep likes Miri and Miri likes Shep, but niether of them likes that they like the other. That's usually where rivalmances live.

So like Talia Al'Ghul and Batman all over again? Speaking of Batman... Arkham City is so good and is a worthy successor to Asylum.

Getting back to the topic at hand though; while I think the 'character assassination' line used by Ieldra is getting 'dangerously' close to hyperbole, I do think the element of anxiety I guess is warranted. I never really got the vibe throughout the course of the game that Miranda was losing faith with Cerberus (or TIM), not even when Shephard can directly challenge Miranda about Jack's situation etc. I don't think that Miranda is one that is usually put into the front lines, but it almost makes Miranda a bit of a 'fair weather friend' if anything, considering I find it highly unlikely that she's never been asked to do anything illegal for them in the past.

[alxboss78]

Ieldra2 wrote...

alxboss78 wrote...
Based on the progression her character makes down the paragon path, i see no fault in logic. ok... like i said i will give you the inapropriate use of "anything" in that phrase, but that's the extent of the fault on the writers part. All the rest is quite well done and fitting to the situations they find themselves in...

I don't like to repeat myself but no, she does definitely not make a progression down the Paragon path, if you discount her recommendation at the CB and especially if you avoid the confrontation with TIM. Basically, what she says there is the only indicator that something in her thinking might have changed. Her recommendations throughout the main plot missions are all Renegade. Except for this. 

Given that the decision about the base is a big one and made under stressful circumstances, I can live with her recommendation to destroy it, but her "betrayal" line is character assassination, plain and simple.   

You are right on the point that we are not given insight on Miranda's thoughts during the gameplay. This game is focused mainly on Shepard. The only insight we get is mainly though the discussions with Shepard and they are focused on her past, on what she thinks of herself and of their "relationship". The other time we get a lot of insight into Miranda's head is her loyalty mission.

So, the only way to make an analysis of her progression during the game is based on those things and through them you see that Miranda is changing in regards to Shepard. Of course you can say that it's only how she sees Shepard and it's not her views and personality that changes, but the problem is that we only get to see her in regards to her interactions and relationship to Shepard.

The few phrases during missions are negligent. So the only way to judge her "evolution" is through her relationship and interaction with Shepard. In that respect she does progress as a character.

And besides like i mentioned before, the main thing about Miranda is not that she had strong political views that tied her with Cerberus, or that she agreed with the way they did things. The main thing about Miranda is that she created a relationship with them that started from her need to feel safe. Shepard shows her an alternative. The progression she makes is that realization that Shepard does indeed present an alternative to TIM.

Hence her resignation comes very naturally.

PS- Like i said i agree with you on the inapropriate use of that phrase during the SM.

[Ieldra]

alxboss wrote....
And besides like i mentioned before, the main thing about Miranda is not that she had strong political views that tied her with Cerberus, or that she agreed with the way they did things. The main thing about Miranda is that she created a relationship with them that started from her need to feel safe. Shepard shows her an alternative. The progression she makes is that realization that Shepard does indeed present an alternative to TIM.

Not quite, as I see it:

Miranda and Cerberus
Miranda may not have a strong political view with regard to Cerberus, but she has a vision of human advancement. You hear it when she talks about what Cerberus is about, and that's why she remained loyal for all those years. And she was loyal, it is clearly more than a job for her. That her vision of human advancement may not exactly compatible with TIM's (anymore) is a plausible speculation I subscribe to, but her attachment to Cerberus has deeper roots than a need to feel safe.

As a sidenote, it is interesting to speculate what changed - has only she changed, has she changed at all, or has TIM changed in the years since he was Jack Harper and had contact with that Reaper artifact?

Anyway, what I wanted to say with this is while I interpret Miranda different from you, that she doesn't want to be with Cerberus anymore can have various reasons and I'm fine with most speculations put forward about it, including the above. We won't see her with Cerberus in ME3, and while I'd like an option where we could continue to work in Cerberus' spirit, I'm fine with that, too. I don't have a problem with her resignation.

The few phrases during missions are negligent. So the only way to judge her "evolution" is through her relationship and interaction with Shepard. In that respect she does progress as a character.

I disagree with this:

Miranda's character development.
The interesting thing to note here is that there is a clear distinction between in-romance development and development along the main plot. As I said, Miranda's recommendations in the main plot missions, up into the SM where she says you can't go back to escort the crew, are thoroughly pragmatic. Always and without exception, so that what she says at the final boss comes totally out of the blue.
In the romance - and in her loyalty mission if you play it that way - there is a clear path of development where she learns to form personal attachments, with Shepard and with Oriana.
So what I see near the end of the game, before the exchange with TIM at the final boss, is a woman who has opened up emotionally to selected individuals, revealed that she's fiercely protective of her sister, came to accept that she loves someone, but otherwise acts as pragmatic as always. That's the Miranda I came to love, based on 99.9% of the game, including what happens when you keep the base. I can even live with what happens if you select the middle option at the exchange with TIM and then destroy the base. 

So what's the problem, you might ask? Well, I fear that they will use the Miranda who said that betrayal line as a template for Miranda in ME3, with the usual thrice-damned Paragon favoritism I've come to resent so much. And I'm not even a Renegade player (more neutral), I just sound like one because I'm fed up with all that one-sidedness. ME2 Miranda  was a promise. She was presented as a badass, hypercompetent and beautiful woman who, for a change, wouldn't throw every other consideration out of the window because of empathy and who could become my companion and lover. I want ME3 to deliver on that promise.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2011 - 12:02 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

I'd actually like it if Miranda were mildly disfigured, but I've always loved Beauty and the Beast stories. And Shepard could either be a jerkass or prove he cares beyond the obvious. Miranda would be dumbfounded, I think.

Well, personally I wouldn't mind at all if they went quite far in that direction. The realities of video game design being what they are, I wouldn't expect anything too extreme, but I do think a change to reflect the harder life she's been living, perhaps on the run from Cerberus, or leading a strike team on hit-and-run attacks, is quite plausible. I would welcome it.

I wouldn't want more than a scar similar to the ones Shepard has in ME1. But "Cerberus Renegade"? Yes, I can totally see that. Feels so right that I can see the designation appear on her character sheet in ME3.

Edit:
Actually, I don't want any disfigurement at all. I could live with something really minor, that's why I said the above.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2011 - 12:12 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Pardon me for derailing, but since I've been called out in public, I'd like to respond in kind.

I'm under no illusions that I own or control any character. But there are certain traits and tropes I enjoy in characters and certain traits I despise. And, as it happens, the traits I loathe the most are perversions of the ones I love. The strong, morally ambiguous woman who is transformed into someone both more traditionally moral and with less agency because of a charismatic hero; the career woman who not only wants a child but abandons her career for the promise of family, rather than having both. I've seen these things happen and to characters I love. It disgusts me. And if that happens to Miranda, she won't be the character I thought she was, but a contemptible mockery. Am i strident about this. Yep. Because I don't want to lose my favorite. It's not the looks or the voice that draw me, it's the ambiguity mixed with the passion, the cynicism mixed with the idealism. Lose that, and you lose Miranda.

Even while coming from the opposite side of the gender divide, I fully, passionately agree with this. It bears repeating. I've also seen this happen to characters I liked, and I don't want to see it happen to Miranda.

Edit:
And now, I'm finally done with catching up on last night's posts. Phew.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2011 - 12:22 .

[typoo855]

"Arijharn wrote...

I'm not sure how having a scar is supposed to sell the whole "they live in dangerous times" vibe even more so than the simple fact that a galactic war is going on. It just seems a bit redundant to me.

I actually think having a scar to do this would actually be pretty lazy in a way. "I have gone through a traumatic part in my life. You can tell because I have a scar!" It's just cliche."

Ive had multiple traumatic moments and i can depict them to you because of a scar or in the case of my leg a M0ther)(#@&$ indent so no not necessarily plus shes in a war shes going to get shot, getting shot leaves a scar.

[alxboss78]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Not quite, as I see it:

Miranda and Cerberus
Miranda may not have a strong political view with regard to Cerberus, but she has a vision of human advancement. You hear it when she talks about what Cerberus is about, and that's why she remained loyal for all those years. And she was loyal, it is clearly more than a job for her. That her vision of human advancement may not exactly compatible with TIM's (anymore) is a plausible speculation I subscribe to, but her attachment to Cerberus has deeper roots than a need to feel safe.

The things she says regarding human advancement are very very general and in a way do not differ at all from the things Shepard could have said. Also she makes it absolutely clear that she knows and believes in having boundries and limits to the actions one would take to achieve what they want. That is why she is quick to wash her handsclean of the many failed experiments of Cerberus and even condemn many of them, by insisting that they were not directly controlled by Cerberus. So in regards to political views and idealism she is not that much close to TIM.

However she does mention very clearly that the reason she joined Cerberus was for protection. So imagine aa young woman who joins a group, and they keep her safe from the biggest threat she perceives, then the head of that organisation acknowledges her skills and makes her one of his confidants. (as a side note it would be interesting to one day read about the initial phases of Miranda joining Cerberus - who trained her who taught her what she knows etc.- that would give us a cleare view of what we are discussing now) It is very easy to imagine that that woman (even if she didn't hold their beliefs close to her heart) would eventually become lyal to that person.

That of course is accentuated by Miranda's (and every person's to be honest) need to feel useful, and needed and that her talents are acknowledged.

All these are clearly apprent in-game and are the MAIN reasons (imho) why Miranda was loyal to TIM all this time

As a sidenote, it is interesting to speculate what changed - has only she changed, has she changed at all, or has TIM changed in the years since he was Jack Harper and had contact with that Reaper artifact?

Definitely both have changed. But the important part (for Miranda's discussion) is whether TIM has changed from the moment she entered the organisation as she didn't know him before that...

I disagree with this:

Miranda's character development.
The interesting thing to note here is that there is a clear distinction between in-romance development and development along the main plot. As I said, Miranda's recommendations in the main plot missions, up into the SM where she says you can't go back to escort the crew, are thoroughly pragmatic. Always and without exception, so that what she says at the final boss comes totally out of the blue.

Except for the choices that are too close to home like you yourself have said. Both in the cases of Oriana and in the case of her romance to Shepard she was not so pragmatic. She chose and acted PURELY emotionally (maybe as a way to counter the other times where she acts very pragmatic). And to me that final scene in the CB can also be attributed to making a decision in the same way. Very emotionally because the situation is too close to home for her, both in terms of Shepard, and in terms of the horrific things she witnessed first hand.

So what's the problem, you might ask? Well, I fear that they will use the Miranda who said that betrayal line as a template for Miranda in ME3, with the usual thrice-damned Paragon favoritism I've come to resent so much. And I'm not even a Renegade player (more neutral), I just sound like one because I'm fed up with all that one-sidedness. ME2 Miranda  was a promise. She was presented as a badass, hypercompetent and beautiful woman who, for a change, wouldn't throw every other consideration out of the window because of empathy and who could become my companion and lover. I want ME3 to deliver on that promise.

I do believe that this fear of yours is unfounded. I can not imagine the writers suddenly for the final part of the trilogy going mental and turning Miranda into Tali, Liara, or i don't know who else. In my opinion it will be a Miranda that more closely resembles the Miranda in the fic you're BETAing... "Degrees of inheritance". As that is the most logical evolution of the character, given what we have seen of her so far, and what we have seen of Bioware in teh past...

[Arijharn]

typoo855 wrote...

Ive had multiple traumatic moments and i can depict them to you because of a scar or in the case of my leg a M0ther)(#@&$ indent so no not necessarily plus shes in a war shes going to get shot, getting shot leaves a scar.

I do not doubt, but when it comes to a literary device to denote she's been through a tough time, giving her a big scar is like the first order of the day. It's just... boring really. 

Personally I think it would be better for her to have a more 'psychological' scar since she's supposed to be quick healing etc.

[Ieldra]

alxboss78 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda and Cerberus
Miranda may not have a strong political view with regard to Cerberus, but she has a vision of human advancement. You hear it when she talks about what Cerberus is about, and that's why she remained loyal for all those years. And she was loyal, it is clearly more than a job for her. That her vision of human advancement may not exactly compatible with TIM's (anymore) is a plausible speculation I subscribe to, but her attachment to Cerberus has deeper roots than a need to feel safe.

The things she says regarding human advancement are very very general and in a way do not differ at all from the things Shepard could have said. Also she makes it absolutely clear that she knows and believes in having boundries and limits to the actions one would take to achieve what they want. That is why she is quick to wash her handsclean of the many failed experiments of Cerberus and even condemn many of them, by insisting that they were not directly controlled by Cerberus. So in regards to political views and idealism she is not that much close to TIM.

You don't know that. You only know - or at least have some indication that - she's not as ruthless as TIM. She could be close or a little further away. As for her ideals, recall how she answers Shepard and explains what Cerberus is about: "The advancement of the human race, nothing more, nothing less." Recall her tone when she says this. If that doesn't sound like she believes Cerberus does more to advance the human race than, say, the Alliance (recall her comment about them on Horizon) I don't know what would. 

However she does mention very clearly that the reason she joined Cerberus was for protection. So imagine aa young woman who joins a group, and they keep her safe from the biggest threat she perceives, then the head of that organisation acknowledges her skills and makes her one of his confidants. (as a side note it would be interesting to one day read about the initial phases of Miranda joining Cerberus - who trained her who taught her what she knows etc.- that would give us a cleare view of what we are discussing now) It is very easy to imagine that that woman (even if she didn't hold their beliefs close to her heart) would eventually become lyal to that person.

No, she does not mention that. She mentions that Cerberus protects her sister, but never that that was the reason she joined. All she says is that TIM recruited her at a young age. I'll give you that it sounds likely, since I don't think 16-year-old Miranda would have a vision of human advancement (though....hmm....I had that at 16, through my extensive reading of sci-fi). However, given the way she talks she's come to believe in the cause she's been working for all those years. Maybe it's a cause she's made up for herself which in the end proves not very similar to what TIM has in mind, but it's there.

BTW, have you read ME:Evolution? There's this excerpt from the Cerberus Manifesto you see Jack Harper record at the end. I find it very plausible that Miranda would subscribe to that.

All these are clearly apprent in-game and are the MAIN reasons (imho) why Miranda was loyal to TIM all this time

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

As a sidenote, it is interesting to speculate what changed - has only she changed, has she changed at all, or has TIM changed in the years since he was Jack Harper and had contact with that Reaper artifact?

Definitely both have changed. But the important part (for Miranda's discussion) is whether TIM has changed from the moment she entered the organisation as she didn't know him before that...

Timeline: 2157 - Jack Harper distributes the Cerberus Manifesto. Around 2166 - Miranda runs away from home, taking Oriana with her, and is recruited by Cerberus. 2185 - Miranda meets Shepard after having been a Cerberus operative for 19 years. I'd say there is a good chance TIM changed in that time. ME3 will likely tell us more about his history. 

Miranda's character development.
The interesting thing to note here is that there is a clear distinction between in-romance development and development along the main plot. As I said, Miranda's recommendations in the main plot missions, up into the SM where she says you can't go back to escort the crew, are thoroughly pragmatic. Always and without exception, so that what she says at the final boss comes totally out of the blue.

Except for the choices that are too close to home like you yourself have said. Both in the cases of Oriana and in the case of her romance to Shepard she was not so pragmatic. She chose and acted PURELY emotionally (maybe as a way to counter the other times where she acts very pragmatic). And to me that final scene in the CB can also be attributed to making a decision in the same way. Very emotionally because the situation is too close to home for her, both in terms of Shepard, and in terms of the horrific things she witnessed first hand.

That's different, you know. Her LM is (a) a very personal situation and ( the fate of the galaxy doesn't depend on her decision. That makes all the difference as far as I'm concerned. The higher the stakes, the less you let your emotions run away with your common sense. I'm sure that's one of the first things Miranda learned in her training. And the stakes don't get bigger than here. 

I do believe that this fear of yours is unfounded. I can not imagine the writers suddenly for the final part of the trilogy going mental and turning Miranda into Tali, Liara, or i don't know who else. In my opinion it will be a Miranda that more closely resembles the Miranda in the fic you're BETAing... "Degrees of inheritance". As that is the most logical evolution of the character, given what we have seen of her so far, and what we have seen of Bioware in teh past...

Well, "Degrees"' Miranda is considerably less pragmatic than ME2 Miranda. But she's more aware of herself and her emotions, and she supported Shepard when he kept the Collector base - and when he decided to give copies of the Reaper IFF to various other factions and broke away from Cerberus.  Which is a choice I would have liked to have. So if things turn out that way it will probably be OK. Also you might want to wait for Chapter 7 before you say that 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2011 - 01:47 .

[flemm]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is this: there is absolutely no indication that Miranda's exchange with TIM at the CB is about loyalty and how he has used her as an expendable tool and doesn't deserve her loyalty anymore.[/quote]
[/quote]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
That's *after* she says her line. By then, TIM has proven that he treats Shepard as an expendable tool. That brings home to her that she might be next and plausibly leads to her resignation. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the reason she gives for disagreeing with TIM in the first place.
[/quote]

I bolded the two sections of your posts above because I think it is the crux of why we see the whole CB question differently.

I think the exchange has to be considered as a whole and in context. For that reason, I don't believe it is an accurate statement to assert that "there is absolutely no indication that Miranda's exchange with TIM is about loyalty." It's only if you consider the "betrayal" line in isolation that it becomes possible to assert this. But why would I do that? It's part of a larger exchange and thought-process. Of course it starts to feel less in-character if you remove the rest of what is said. 

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
But "Cerberus Renegade"? Yes, I can totally see that. Feels so right that I can see the designation appear on her character sheet in ME3.[/quote]

Yeah, I really like it

Modifié par flemm, 19 octobre 2011 - 01:52 .

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't have a problem with her resignation.

Well now I think my three page PM was a tad redundant...<_<

Man don't you people sleep? I guess you're in different timezones or something.  I really want to keep up with this thread but averaging 3+ pages a night? Talk about commitment. Gonna be a loooong 5 months...

Anyway too lazy to pull out all the specific quotes and points people have said that I agree with but in a nutshell:

Scarring- quick and easy path, unnecessary, irrelevant. Other signs of trauma more pertinent/impactful

Miranda/Ash ship jumping- May happen for some people. I was with Ashley in ME1 but I wasn't too sure I picked correctly (had the confrontation). Basically I liked her once she opened up during the romance but I found her too confrontational otherwise. Contrast Miranda whom I knew I wanted immediately. Yes a lot of that had to do with looks and I was initially put off by the cold shoulder. But I stuck with it and the reward was far greater. I made my choice. I stick with it even if Ash becomes a Miranda clone (which would be a detriment to her character and not one the writers are likely to make). Besides the game is supposed to punish you for that kind of thing anyway.

Settle down, have kids, boost the economy- Why is this such a concern? As I see it none of the human LIs are likely to follow this path. Ashley's big on family but she's also big on the Alliance (hell they're pretty much one and the same). Yeah she'd have kids but she wouldn't leave the military. And she's supposed to be the more conventional one. Miranda wants kids sure. Does that in any way lessen her drive for whatever notion of human ideal? Absolutely not. Miranda with kids- possible. Miranda the housewife- highly unlikely.
Jack- no comment necessary.

Resignation, loyalty, the infamous "line"- Resignation perfectly plausible, wanted to highlight the mention of TIM's casual discarding of Shepard after all the money spent on him as obvious proof to Miranda that he doesn't care about any of them. "Betrayal line" taken too seriously. I understand the concern but the exact wording was probably an oversight, not likely to be used as building block for further character development.

Lapsed into Mordin speech for a while there^_^

*edit- fell behind again as I was writing this. Not big suprise.

flemm wrote...

I think the exchange has to be considered as a whole and in context. For
that reason, I don't believe it is an accurate statement to assert that
"there is absolutely no indication that Miranda's exchange with TIM is
about loyalty." It's only if you consider the "betrayal" line
in isolation that it becomes possible to assert this. But why would I do
that? It's part of a larger exchange and thought-process. Of course it
starts to feel less in-character if you remove the rest of what is
said. 

Totally agree.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 19 octobre 2011 - 01:57 .

[flemm]

FLANDERS wrote...

WHen they talk afer they return to the ship I am still trying to work out how to move them forward, Tell me how on Xbox and playstation. Help

I'd like to help, FLANDERS, but I'm afraid I'm not sure precisely what you are asking. Can you clarify?

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is this: there is absolutely no indication that Miranda's exchange with TIM at the CB is about loyalty and how he has used her as an expendable  tool and doesn't deserve her loyalty anymore.

I believe there is: "Or what? You're going to replace me next?"

Besides, TIM actually has NOT treated her as an expendable tool. He treats Shepard that way when he orders Miranda to prevent Shepard from destroying the base, but not Miranda. She has no reason to resent TIM in that regard.

I do not believe Miranda is so selfish as to only care the way TIM treats her, especially since she came to care for Shepard, even when not romanced.
Besides, if TIM can throw away the man he spent two years rebuilding that easily, how long until he decides to do the same to her?

He didn't even lie to her as far as we know.

He did. About the Collector Cruiser. He did not directly lie to her but he knew she would be affected.
Miranda is willing to sacrifice people but only if necessary and she does not lie to them about it.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is this: there is absolutely no indication that Miranda's exchange with TIM at the CB is about loyalty and how he has used her as an expendable tool and doesn't deserve her loyalty anymore.

OK, I was wrong about that, but the following point still stands:

Ieldra2 wrote...
That's *after* she says her line. By then, TIM has proven that he treats Shepard as an expendable tool. That brings home to her that she might be next and plausibly leads to her resignation. I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the reason she gives for disagreeing with TIM in the first place.

I bolded the two sections of your posts above because I think it is the crux of why we see the whole CB question differently.

I think the exchange has to be considered as a whole and in context. For that reason, I don't believe it is an accurate statement to assert that "there is absolutely no indication that Miranda's exchange with TIM is about loyalty." It's only if you consider the "betrayal" line in isolation that it becomes possible to assert this. But why would I do that? It's part of a larger exchange and thought-process. Of course it starts to feel less in-character if you remove the rest of what is said.

A whole yes, but a sequential whole. You can't justify early parts by things that come later. At the time when Miranda says the betrayal line, it is clearly not about her loyalty to TIM or his loyalty to her. The conversation only gets to that topic after TIM orders her to prevent Shepard from destroying the base. Why? Because (a) TIM's loyalty to her was not in question so far in the whole game, and ( because the line makes no sense within that context.

I have repeatedly asked you to explain, in detail, why you think that line refers to TIM's broken loyalty to her. All I have seen is an assertion that it does. I'm sorry, but that's not enough. Tell me, please, how "using anything from this base" can be construed as a betrayal with the topic being TIM's loyalty to her? I'm totally flabbergasted by this spurious connection you're making here. Has the meaning of words suddenly become completely arbitrary? Am I Iiving in the same universe as you do? This is beginning to seriously annoy me, almost more than the topic we're discussing itself.

@MisterJB:
That should also answer your first point.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2011 - 02:06 .

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...
Besides, if TIM can throw away the man he spent two years rebuilding that easily, how long until he decides to do the same to her?

The whole scene really resonates with Miranda's earlier dialogue about her father, which is I think a very under-discussed element of the exchange.

TIM says to Shepard, "I didn't discard you because I knew you could be useful...," or words to that effect. Then TIM is ready to discard him when he proves defiant, and Miranda refuses to comply, stating "Or what? You'll replace me, too?"

Compare with what she says about her father, from memory, something like: "I wasn't the first one he created, I was just the first one he kept." 

Modifié par flemm, 19 octobre 2011 - 02:06 .

[alxboss78]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...

You don't know that. You only know - or at least have some indication that - she's not as ruthless as TIM. She could be close or a little further away. As for her ideals, recall how she answers Shepard and explains what Cerberus is about: "The advancement of the human race, nothing more, nothing less." Recall her tone when she says this. If that doesn't sound like she believes Cerberus does more to advance the human race than, say, the Alliance (recall her comment about them on Horizon) I don't know what would. [/quote]

Well i may not know that for sure, but given her references many times that she wouldn't condone what happened to Tetlin and the negative way with which she spoke regarding the other "projects" of Cerberus, i assume that she is nowhere near as ruthless as TIM. That's all i'm saying. She has mentioned all this staff. Whereas your argument is based on the way she says that.

[quote]No, she does not mention that. She mentions that Cerberus protects her sister, but never that that was the reason she joined. All she says is that TIM recruited her at a young age. I'll give you that it sounds likely, since I don't think 16-year-old Miranda would have a vision of human advancement (though....hmm....I had that at 16, through my extensive reading of sci-fi). However, given the way she talks she's come to believe in the cause she's been working for all those years. Maybe it's a cause she's made up for herself which in the end proves not very similar to what TIM has in mind, but it's there.[/quote]

[quote from in game]

Shepard: Cerberus obviously has your loyalty. How did you get involved with them?

Miranda: Hmm... I suppose you've earned the right to know...

Miranda: Do you remember when I told you how I was genetically altered? Well, that wasn't my choice. My father... created me.

Miranda: He's a very influential man, and extremely controlling. He didn't want a daughter -- he wanted a dynasty.

Miranda: I ran away as soon as I was old and brave enough. I went to Cerberus because I knew they could protect me."

I don't think she can say this more clearly... She never mentions her sister actually.

[quote]BTW, have you read ME:Evolution? There's this excerpt from the Cerberus Manifesto you see Jack Harper record at the end. I find it very plausible that Miranda would subscribe to that. [/quote]

No i haven't so i'll take your word for it.

[quote]
That's different, you know. Her LM is (a) a very personal situation and ( the fate of the galaxy doesn't depend on her decision. That makes all the difference as far as I'm concerned. The higher the stakes, the less you let your emotions run away with your common sense. I'm sure that's one of the first things Miranda learned in her training. And the stakes don't get bigger than here. [/quote]

You do have a point there, and i do agree that it needed a bit more thorough explanation thatn what it actually got on game. However i have come to accept some things in games, one of which is that most things are compressed for time and money's sake...

Modifié par alxboss78, 19 octobre 2011 - 02:16 .

[CrutchCricket]

New insight on betrayal line:
TIM wants to use base. Miranda sees this as betrayal of what she understands "human advancement" to be. Base's sole purpose is Reaper creation. Reaper creation inconsistent with "human advancement".
Betrayal line may be misguided but more along the lines of TIM saying :"I was never on your side". Or in other words "I mean human advancement but not the way you're thinking" Which is actually worse than sentimental breakdown as it implies that what Miranda was loyal to does not exist (and maybe never did)

[MisterJB]

alxboss78 wrote...
The fact though remains (as mentioned in her storyline) that the reason she went to Cerberus and TIM in the first place is protection. It's the feeling of safety that she was looking for (primarily) and of course afterwards the feeling of belonging, of being needed and later on of being the best at what she did. Therein lies the reason of her loyalty to TIM. It's not the political beliefs, it's not the way he does things and it's not a feeling of affection. He offered her something, she felt indebted to him and his organisation (also later on she felt useful and needed) and therefore was loyal to him.

I object this notion. It's true that Miranda's need for protection and the feeling of her work with Cerberus giving her a purpose are two of the reasons she joined and stayed.
However, there are other organizations in the Galaxy that could have protected her and Oriana. Groups like the STG or the Spectres would never refuse someone with her skills. The fact that she chose a human survivalist group, especially one that already had ties to her father and could have easily sold her to him, is revelant.
 

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I have repeatedly asked you to explain, in detail, why you think that line refers to TIM's broken loyalty to her. All I have seen is an assertion that it does. I'm sorry, but that's not enough. Tell me, please, how "using anything from this base" can be construed as a betrayal with the topic being TIM's loyalty to her? I'm totally flabbergasted by this spurious connection you're making here. Has the meaning of words suddenly become completely arbitrary? Am I Iiving in the same universe as you do? This is beginning to seriously annoy me, almost more than the topic we're discussing itself.

Re: the bolded, underlined part, the answer is: it depends on how you look at it. I am actually from a parallel dimension and only visit this universe on occasion to bend language to my will and torture the meaning of words.

(Some questions are easier to answer than others )

As to your main point, your question is something of a non-sequitor because, from the beginning of this discussion, I have been interpreting the meaning of the scene as a whole. I haven't been trying to "justify" the betrayal line. That is your fixation, not mine.

To illustrate the point in another way, I have said, "The scene is largely about Miranda's shift in loyalty." And you interpreted that to mean, "The betrayal line is about Miranda's shift in loyalty." But that is only because you are so focused on that particular line that you despise.

I do think that the rest of the scene sheds light on the betrayal line and helps us to understand what Miranda probably meant when she said that (or what the writers had in mind). But that is a somewhat different thing.

Modifié par flemm, 19 octobre 2011 - 02:29 .