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[MisterJB]

flemm wrote...

I think the exchange has to be considered as a whole and in context. For that reason, I don't believe it is an accurate statement to assert that "there is absolutely no indication that Miranda's exchange with TIM is about loyalty." It's only if you consider the "betrayal" line in isolation that it becomes possible to assert this. But why would I do that? It's part of a larger exchange and thought-process. Of course it starts to feel less in-character if you remove the rest of what is said. 

This time, I disagree, flemm. I do believe that the "Betrayal" line and the "Replace" line should be looked at separately. This is because if you keep the Base, after returning to the Normandy, Miranda does not warn Shepard that Cerberus will kill him the first time he disobeys an order. This leads me to believe that, while Miranda maybe have harbored doubts since the Collector Cruiser, it was TIM's order to kill Shepard that lead to her resignation and what she says before that has to be derivated from a different line of thought.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 octobre 2011 - 02:33 .

[alxboss78]

MisterJB wrote...

alxboss78 wrote...
The fact though remains (as mentioned in her storyline) that the reason she went to Cerberus and TIM in the first place is protection. It's the feeling of safety that she was looking for (primarily) and of course afterwards the feeling of belonging, of being needed and later on of being the best at what she did. Therein lies the reason of her loyalty to TIM. It's not the political beliefs, it's not the way he does things and it's not a feeling of affection. He offered her something, she felt indebted to him and his organisation (also later on she felt useful and needed) and therefore was loyal to him.

I object this notion. It's true that Miranda's need for protection and the feeling of her work with Cerberus giving her a purpose are two of the reasons she joined and stayed.
However, there are other organizations in the Galaxy that could have protected her and Oriana. Groups like the STG or the Spectres would never refuse someone with her skills. The fact that she chose a human survivalist group, especially one that already had ties to her father and could have easily sold her to him, is revelant.
 

The reason she went specifically to Cerberus (as she says) was that she knew of Cerberus from her father's dealings.

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...
This time, I disagree, flemm. I do believe that the "Betrayal" line and the "Replace" line should be looked at separately.

Fair enough. And I don't mean to suggest that they are necessarily motivated by exactly the same thought-process.

However, I don't think they can be considered in total isolation from one another because they both represent a more or less drastic step away from loyalty to TIM. He wants to keep the base, she doesn't. If you keep the base, she doesn't resign, but she indicates that she may be beginning to question the organisation's goals ("our goals").

Modifié par flemm, 19 octobre 2011 - 02:43 .

[MisterJB]

alxboss78 wrote...
The reason she went specifically to Cerberus (as she says) was that she knew of Cerberus from her father's dealings.

And wouldn't that have actually made it  a group to avoid? Seems to me that an alien organization would have been more logical at the time.
Yet, Cerberus.

[alxboss78]

And to try and wrap this up. Twice she mentions her REASONS for joining Cerberus. Once prompted by you asking her exactly that and once she tells you herself. The first time she says that the reason was so that they protect her against her father and the second time she tells you that there was another reason that they are also protecting her sister.

So she twice mentions to you the reasons she joined Cerberus and not once is there any mention that I agree with TIM or that i believe in the same ideals he does, or even that i agree with what Cerberus tries to achieve.

I'm not saying she oposes all that at that specific point, it's just that they never factored as reasons. Protection for her and her sister is the only reason she clearly states twice...

[alxboss78]

MisterJB wrote...

alxboss78 wrote...
The reason she went specifically to Cerberus (as she says) was that she knew of Cerberus from her father's dealings.

And wouldn't that have actually made it  a group to avoid? Seems to me that an alien organization would have been more logical at the time.
Yet, Cerberus.

Sorry for the double post but this doesn't make a whole lot of sense... You are an American citizen and someone very powerful (Bill Gates... ) wants to get you and your loved one. You are aware of some people and of certain things of KGB because of past dealings (maybe you even met someone from them too) and you know how to get to them. Will you try and find a way to approach NSA or CIA without ANY knowledge whatsoever of them at the moment of your danger or will you go to the ones you are aware of ... which is KGB... Does that make you a KGB sympathiser?? No. Will you believe certain things they believe and after 19 years behave a little like they do. Most definitely... That's all i mean

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...
I object this notion. It's true that Miranda's need for protection and the feeling of her work with Cerberus giving her a purpose are two of the reasons she joined and stayed.
However, there are other organizations in the Galaxy that could have protected her and Oriana. Groups like the STG or the Spectres would never refuse someone with her skills. The fact that she chose a human survivalist group, especially one that already had ties to her father and could have easily sold her to him, is revelant.
 

Spectres don't choose their own members. The council does that. And STG is a salarian group. Might as well ask to join asari commandos. Given her father is either a) a public supporter of Cerberus very outside the law with his whole create a legacy thing or both, chances are Miranda didn't have a lot of contact with the Alliance or the Citadel during that time. Also she was 16. Cereberus was the only possible choice.

Also no one's even batting an eye at my interpretation of the betrayal line? It might've come up in 700 pages already, but it was new to me...

[flemm]

@alxboss78 and MisterJB, I believe the reality lies somewhere in between your respective points.

I do think Miranda is 100% sincere when she says that she believes in Cerberus' goals (as she perceives them), and that she appreciates the opportunites for fulfilling work that the organisation provides. 

But I think it's also true that Cerberus' role as a refuge from her father tends to cause her to idealize its activities, at least to an extent, and to rationalize its excesses.

Modifié par flemm, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:07 .

[MisterJB]

alxboss78 wrote...

So she twice mentions to you the reasons she joined Cerberus and not once is there any mention that I agree with TIM or that i believe in the same ideals he does, or even that i agree with what Cerberus tries to achieve.

Lazarus Station 2:

"I believe in what Cerberus stands for."

And then during her third conversation, there is this dialogue:

"Shepard: With your intelligence, you could have landed any job you wanted. Why choose this?
Miranda: Because I still envy the time Mordin spent with the Special Tasks Group, working with people as smart as he was.
Miranda: Cerberus never tells me that something is impossible. They give me my resources and say, "Do it.""

BTW, I am also answering to your post directed to me and Ieldra, I have not forgotten about out "genetic" debate.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
New insight on betrayal line:
TIM wants to use base. Miranda sees this as betrayal of what she understands "human advancement" to be. Base's sole purpose is Reaper creation. Reaper creation inconsistent with "human advancement".
Betrayal line may be misguided but more along the lines of TIM saying :"I was never on your side". Or in other words "I mean human advancement but not the way you're thinking" Which is actually worse than sentimental breakdown as it implies that what Miranda was loyal to does not exist (and maybe never did)

Hard to say on the first part. Can this technology be put to any other use? I dunno. But probably.

On the second part, I think it's very plausible that, yes, as you say, TIM's version of "human advancement" differs from Miranda's. Or maybe we could say simply that Miranda is interested in "human advancement," whereas TIM has always been interested more in "human domination."

One of the interesting things about Miranda is how appreciative she is of certain alien cultures: the asari and the salarians, especially. That seems odd for someone working with Cerberus until you take into account that her vision of what the organisation is, and should be, probably differs from that of TIM.

Modifié par flemm, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:05 .

[MisterJB]

alxboss78 wrote...
Sorry for the double post but this doesn't make a whole lot of sense... You are an American citizen and someone very powerful (Bill Gates... ) wants to get you and your loved one. You are aware of some people and of certain things of KGB because of past dealings (maybe you even met someone from them too) and you know how to get to them. Will you try and find a way to approach NSA or CIA without ANY knowledge whatsoever of them at the moment of your danger or will you go to the ones you are aware of ... which is KGB... Does that make you a KGB sympathiser?? No. Will you believe certain things they believe and after 19 years behave a little like they do. Most definitely... That's all i mean

That is not a valid example. First, the KGB is russian while I am an American citizen. In this metaphor,Cerberus would be the CIA while the KGB would be an alien organization.
So, in this, the CIA is heavily funded by Bill Gates (Mr. Lawson) and I (Miranda....only manlier) need protection from him.  So, why would I choose an organization like the CIA, that has ties to my father and can sell me to him any time they feel the need? Wouldn't it make more sense for me to make myself extremely useful to the KGB, a rival organization that will not want to have anything to do with Bill Gates. And, let's not forget, that by joining the CIA (Cerberus), I become a terrorist and will not only have to run away from my father but also the USA government.
Why would I do this? Unless, the CIA's ideals matched my own? While in KGB, I would often have to work against the United States.

[alxboss78]

MisterJB wrote...

alxboss78 wrote...

So she twice mentions to you the reasons she joined Cerberus and not once is there any mention that I agree with TIM or that i believe in the same ideals he does, or even that i agree with what Cerberus tries to achieve.

Lazarus Station 2:

"I believe in what Cerberus stands for."

And then during her third conversation, there is this dialogue:

"Shepard: With your intelligence, you could have landed any job you wanted. Why choose this?
Miranda: Because I still envy the time Mordin spent with the Special Tasks Group, working with people as smart as he was.
Miranda: Cerberus never tells me that something is impossible. They give me my resources and say, "Do it.""

BTW, I am also answering to your post directed to me and Ieldra, I have not forgotten about out "genetic" debate.

Regarding the first comment she makes it's like i told you in my post above. After 19 years you are bound to have formed some sort of connection to the organisation otherwise you would have gone insane... or left (which given her situation was more difficult to do). And like i told you i never said that she objects or oposes what Cerberus stands for. Or at least what Cerberus stands for in her head... However that comes as an afterthought. Her reasons for going to Cerberus were clearly mentioned. The fact that she also believes in what she thinks Cerberus stands for is a bonus for her.

The second expert you mention is also another plus that i mentioned, the fact that Cerberus makes her feel needed. It has nothing to do though with ideology or political views.

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Spectres don't choose their own members. The council does that.

Spectres can suggest individuals, though.

And STG is a salarian group.

Even Cerberus is willing to work with aliens. The STG won't turn away someone useful. 
 

Given her father is either a) a public supporter of Cerberus very outside the law with his whole create a legacy thing or both, chances are Miranda didn't have a lot of contact with the Alliance or the Citadel during that time.

The Alliance would be a bad idea, anyway. They would never stand up to the richest human alive.
But yes, it would have been harder to join an alien organization but also safer. 
 

Also she was 16.

Unless she returned for Oriana, after she had already joined Cerberus. In which case, she was even younger.
16 or younger, she managed to escape the richest man in the Galaxy. That's impressive.

Cereberus was the only possible choice.

Cerberus was a bad choice if all she wanted was to be safe. One phonecall from TIM and she would be back in her room before she could bat an eyelash.
Thankfully, it turned out alright.

[alxboss78]

MisterJB wrote...

alxboss78 wrote...
Sorry for the double post but this doesn't make a whole lot of sense... You are an American citizen and someone very powerful (Bill Gates... ) wants to get you and your loved one. You are aware of some people and of certain things of KGB because of past dealings (maybe you even met someone from them too) and you know how to get to them. Will you try and find a way to approach NSA or CIA without ANY knowledge whatsoever of them at the moment of your danger or will you go to the ones you are aware of ... which is KGB... Does that make you a KGB sympathiser?? No. Will you believe certain things they believe and after 19 years behave a little like they do. Most definitely... That's all i mean

That is not a valid example. First, the KGB is russian while I am an American citizen. In this metaphor,Cerberus would be the CIA while the KGB would be an alien organization.
So, in this, the CIA is heavily funded by Bill Gates (Mr. Lawson) and I (Miranda....only manlier) need protection from him.  So, why would I choose an organization like the CIA, that has ties to my father and can sell me to him any time they feel the need? Wouldn't it make more sense for me to make myself extremely useful to the KGB, a rival organization that will not want to have anything to do with Bill Gates. And, let's not forget, that by joining the CIA (Cerberus), I become a terrorist and will not only have to run away from my father but also the USA government.
Why would I do this? Unless, the CIA's ideals matched my own? While in KGB, I would often have to work against the United States.

Umm... no... i used those two to drive another point. If you have no idea how one organisation works, if you have no idea who to approach, or how they do things and you probably don't know of their existence (you are only 16 btw), when the time comes that you desperately need help you will not try to find out what you can about that organisation, who to approach how to approach them. that would have taken her years if she knew what she was doing and wasn't 16 years old.

However you are aware of another organisation and you know some people within that organisation (maybe you have met them in the past) and maybe you even know their reqruitment channels and methods. That would be the first thing that would pop into your head. If you knew someone from the organisation that would be a bonus. So even if... you were American you would go to the KGB for protection and safety because you would know how and what to do.

I used that to show that even though you woul;dn't be sharing their beliefs or goals you would try your luck with them, because that is what you knew... that would be the easy thing and the first thing that would pop in your head.

I must have not explained it correctly before...

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Hard to say on the first part. Can this technology be put to any other use? I dunno. But probably.

On the second part, I think it's very plausible that, yes, as you say, TIM's version of "human advancement" differs from Miranda's. Or maybe we could say simply that Miranda is interested in "human advancement," whereas TIM has always been interested more in "human domination."

One of the interesting things about Miranda is how appreciative she is of certain alien cultures: the asari and the salarians, especially, that I can recall. That seems odd for someone working with Cerberus until you take into account that her vision of what the organisation is, and should be, probably differs from that of TIM.

Hmm. What other things can the Collector base be used for though? Please jump in if I'm forgetting something. We have:
Seeker swarms (targeting, prey imobilization)- already studied by Mordin
Stasis pods- Have similar tech already
Weapons- Particle beam, collector assault rifle Thannix cannon, all researched and already in use
Armor- all researched and already in use
Collector physiology- N/A as that gets destroyed regardless, already studied by Mordin
Tissue Liquification, likely with focus on preserving genetic traits and memory(I don't know how this makes sense except for the fact that humans are chosen for genetic diversity)
The creation of Reaper material, programs and cognitive network, likely through tissue liquification.

Besides the obvious dangers of messing with any direct Reaper tech I don't see how you can study that last one without putting it through its paces. It might be valuable to know how Reaper programs are built but assuming you can get that information without being indoctrinated you still need to liquify people to do it. And we all know Cerberus wouldn't balk at that. Miranda's wicked smart. What's to say she didn't work all this out?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:17 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
To illustrate the point in another way, I have said, "The scene is largely about Miranda's shift in loyalty." And you interpreted that to mean, "The betrayal line is about Miranda's shift in loyalty." But that is only because you are so focused on that particular line that you despise.

No, that was not the reason. The scenes are different. You can always have one but not the other. To get the betrayal line, you need to select "This is an abomination" at the first conversation node with TIM. After that, you *can* choose to destroy the base and get the conversation node with "You'll replace me next", but you can also keep the base and not get it. In the same way, you can choose the middle or lower option at the first conversation node and then destroy the base to get "You'll replace me next" and what follows.

Also, the two are thematically different. The first is about the base, and the second about Miranda's loyalty. So those two conversations are structurally separate, independent from each other and thematically different. IN taht light, your assertion that....

[...] the rest of the scene sheds light on the betrayal line and helps us to understand what Miranda probably meant when she said that (or what the writers had in mind).

....seems rather far-fetched, especially in the light that there is an obvious meaning to the betrayal line (I've outlined that on the previous page) that you'd need to discard before you can tie it elsewhere. If you think the betrayal line makes sense, then explain why you think it does. You still haven't.

Also, you mistake me. I don't want to understand the betrayal line. I want it GONE! Killed! Utterly unmade with every trace of its history annihilated and even the memory of it purged from people's brains!

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:18 .

[MisterJB]

alxboss78 wrote...

Regarding the first comment she makes it's like i told you in my post above. After 19 years you are bound to have formed some sort of connection to the organisation otherwise you would have gone insane... or left (which given her situation was more difficult to do).

I guess we'll just have to agre to disagree.
You say that after spending years working for Cerberus, Miranda started to believe in their ideals.
I say that Miranda chose Cerberus exactly because she believed in their ideals, protection and advancement of humanity.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:23 .

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...

Spectres can suggest individuals, though.

Sure but what Spectre would go up to the council with some human teenager and claim she's the best thing since sliced bread genetic modifications or not? Besides this is before Shepard, likely around the time Anderson a proven qualified candidate got sabotaged by Saren. Remember him? He who hates all humans?

Even Cerberus is willing to work with aliens. The STG won't turn away someone useful.

 Maybe. But as you admit, it's hard to get into an alien organization, even more so if you're a teenager.

The Alliance would be a bad idea, anyway. They would never stand up to the richest human alive.
But yes, it would have been harder to join an alien organization but also safer.

Uhm... the Alliance is pretty much human government in space. I'm sure they'd "stand" just fine. On the other hand they can get infiltrated quite easily and again the age issue comes up.

Unless she returned for Oriana, after she had already joined Cerberus. In which case, she was even younger.
16 or younger, she managed to escape the richest man in the Galaxy. That's impressive.

Indeed. Impressive as it may be, it also means she didn't have a lot of options to begin with.

Cerberus was a bad choice if all she wanted was to be safe. One phonecall from TIM and she would be back in her room before she could bat an eyelash.
Thankfully, it turned out alright.

She probably didn't run right into TIM's lap. She probably joined a cell in disguise and rose through the ranks. By the time daddy-o figured out what was happening Cerberus probably wouldn't let her go.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:29 .

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
New insight on betrayal line:
TIM wants to use base. Miranda sees this as betrayal of what she understands "human advancement" to be. Base's sole purpose is Reaper creation. Reaper creation inconsistent with "human advancement".
Betrayal line may be misguided but more along the lines of TIM saying :"I was never on your side". Or in other words "I mean human advancement but not the way you're thinking" Which is actually worse than sentimental breakdown as it implies that what Miranda was loyal to does not exist (and maybe never did)

I considered that, but it doesn't mix well with the phrasing "Using *anything* from this base feels like a betrayal". That she doesn't want a human Reaper I take as given. But surely something like taking stuff away from the base in order to understand the Reapers better cannot be construed as a betrayal. The same would apply to the other technologies you mentioned above in your answer to flemm. How could all that be a betrayal?

Given her phrasing, I still think the most likely intended meaning is as an analogy to using the results of the n*zi experiments, which I mentioned above. Unfortunately, that would make it out of character.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:31 .

[Ieldra]

MisterJB wrote...

alxboss78 wrote...

Regarding the first comment she makes it's like i told you in my post above. After 19 years you are bound to have formed some sort of connection to the organisation otherwise you would have gone insane... or left (which given her situation was more difficult to do).

I guess we'll just have to agre to disagree.
You say that after spending years working for Cerberus, Miranda started to believe in their ideals.
I say that Miranda chose Cerberus exactly because she believed in their ideals, protection and advancement of humanity.

Yep. that's how I see it, too. alxboss, we have to agree to disagree as well.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I considered that, but it doesn't mix well with the phrasing "Using *anything* from this base feels like a betrayal". That she doesn't want a human Reaper I take as given. But surely something like taking stuff away from the base in order to understand the Reapers better cannot be construed as a betrayal. Given that phrasing, I still think the most likely intended meaning is as an analogy to using the results of the n*zi experiments, which I mentioned above. Unfortunately, that would make it out of character.  

Did you see my post above where I was talking about the tech in the base? I'm pretty sure everything they could learn from the Collectors that isn't in "Creating a Reaper: For Dummies" they already had. Thus "using anything [else] feels like a betrayal" can work.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:32 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I don't want to understand the betrayal line. I want it GONE! Killed! Utterly unmade with every trace of its history annihilated and even the memory of it purged from people's brains!

What you seek to destroy, I seek to understand.
I do enjoy the intensity you bring to these discussions, though

Modifié par flemm, 19 octobre 2011 - 03:39 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I don't want to understand the betrayal line. I want it GONE! Killed! Utterly unmade with every trace of its history annihilated and even the memory of it purged from people's brains!

What you seek to destroy, I seek to understand.
I do enjoy the intensity you bring to these discussions, though

Whoa... sounds like you'd make a good Reaper yourself Ieldra..

That was a joke.

[Ieldra]

@CrutchCricket:
The important thing is that you do not know what you will find if you examine the base. Miranda's line cannot be results-oriented because Reaper technology is so far beyond the conventional that nobody could ever say what "anything from this base" could be used for.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, how *we* understand the "betrayal" line is not as important as how it was intended by the writers. We may be able to find an interpretation that suits our particular preferences, but what's important, at least for me, is how it will influence Miranda's portrayal in ME3. Miranda has one or two other lines I really hate, but since none of them has the potential to ruin her for ME3 it's not important. I just choose my way through the conversations so that I won't get them.

So I'd ask: what's the most obvious meaning, what could have been recognized by most players without having to interpret things to the moon and back? And then I get to a meaning I find totally non-Miranda-like which I would never want to influence her character in ME3.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I don't want to understand the betrayal line. I want it GONE! Killed! Utterly unmade with every trace of its history annihilated and even the memory of it purged from people's brains!

What you seek to destroy, I seek to understand.
I do enjoy the intensity you bring to these discussions, though

The thing is, I do understand the line. That's the reason I want to destroy it.

You just re-interpret it in order to make it fit Miranda's character. Which is a hopeless undertaking. May I remind you that you STILL haven't attempted to explain your interpretation of the betrayal line? All I have are baseless assertions. BTW, I resent the aura of contempt oozing out of your post.