82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
While I've enjoyed the intellectual sparring I feel we're getting away from the point of this thread. It's been an awesome discussion but if it were up to me, we'd go back lovestruck admiration of Miranda for a while:wub:

Quite correct. For a change, I've had enough of serious debate for the day. I'm also feeling bad for almost monopolizing the thread. Here's another screenshot.

[CrutchCricket]

Man you know which screenshot I'd really love to get? Right after they land on the Collector base and the Normandy is temporarily disabled and you have Shepard and Miranda behind Joker. At one point she says something along the lines of "we all knew this was a one way trip" or something. And she looks down and really sad? I thought she was really beautiful in that moment. Wouldn't like to see her depressed normally but she just looked so good at that instant.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
 I resent the aura of contempt oozing out of your post.

It's not contempt. It's just a refusal to take the whole thing 100% seriously.

For the moment, I guess I will hold off on further discussion of the CB, since it appears we are ready to move on.

Sweet screenshots

Modifié par flemm, 19 octobre 2011 - 07:58 .

[AstronautN7]

any Miranda related news post the BW's ME3 Multiplayer annoucement?

[jtav]

Well, mind helping a writer out? I'm reworking one of my more popular stories--an AU prequel where Miranda trains a young Shepard in biotics. The main change is that Shepard's education is being paid for by Mr. Lawson because his parents were complicit in making Miranda's childhood a living hell and it's cheaper to buy them off. Would you think poorly of a Shepard who threw that money away once he found out the circumstances and decided to join the Alliance as penance/a way to pay for college on his own terms? I can't decide if he's stupid or noble.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Well, mind helping a writer out? I'm reworking one of my more popular stories--an AU prequel where Miranda trains a young Shepard in biotics. The main change is that Shepard's education is being paid for by Mr. Lawson because his parents were complicit in making Miranda's childhood a living hell and it's cheaper to buy them off. Would you think poorly of a Shepard who threw that money away once he found out the circumstances and decided to join the Alliance as penance/a way to pay for college on his own terms? I can't decide if he's stupid or noble.

It has something of noble, but more of stupid, especially if Shepard is Earthborn, which Matt is, right? It's an empty gesture that does nothing to improve the situation. I think Miranda wouldn't be impressed though she may be touched - for a second.

It would be in-character for a very young and more Paragon Shepard, though. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2011 - 08:19 .

[flemm]

AstronautN7 wrote...

any Miranda related news post the BW's ME3 Multiplayer annoucement?

Nope. Not a thing

[jtav]

Matt's...well, he doesn't map very well on any background. He's comfortably well off, but going to an elite boarding school he'd gave no hope of attending otherwise. He's also been outed as a biotic earlier. I might have Mr. Lawson lean on him to try to worm Oriana's location out of Miranda as well.

[alxboss78]

Sorry but I never got a reply for this... Did neither of you see this? If you have nothing to reply i'll accept it.

@ieldra2 and MisterJB, guys sorry to take you back some pages, but i was away. Ok i agree to disagree but before i do that please answer me the following so that i know how you view this:

You are Miranda, and Commander Shepard comes in and starts chatting up at you and eventually point blank asks you "Why did you join cerberus?".

So the Miranda you have in your head... how would she really answe that? And after you think that tell me one good reason why the in game Miranda fails to even remotely mention in that reply, any political, ideological or moral connection to Cerberus.

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

Can I derail this conversation for a sec? What do you guys normally do in the Miranda/Jack confrontation? What I'd like to do is tell Jack off for threatening my XO and back Miranda publicly while giving her a stern chewing out in private. But that's not an option, and I'm not sure what would be closest to that. Complicating matters is that I'd very much like Jack to live, and Garrus and Grunt are marked for death.

If romancing Miranda, I side with Miranda, vice versa with Jack. If I'm feeling really ambitious I just go into the save editior and give myself enough paragon/renegade points to use the charm/intimidate options.

Of course I resort to headcannon with Bucky Shepard:

Miranda: Thank you Shepard, I don't want to think about what could have happened.

Shepard: I wouldn't go thanking me just yet, because Jack's not the only one at fault here.

Miranda: She's the one who started this!

Shepard: I personally don't care who started it, what I do care about is that my XO is getting into petty squabbles with my crew I would expect that from Jack, not you. I don't know how Cerberus does things but aboard this ship I expect my executive staff to conduct themselves in a manner befitting an officer. 

Miranda: (coldly) What would you have me do? Apologize?

Shepard: No. I want you to at least be civil to the rest of the crew if problems arise I need to know. When Joker has to tell me that hell is about to break loose there's a problem. Are we clear?

Miranda: Crystal.

[Ieldra]

alxboss78 wrote...
@ieldra2 and MisterJB, guys sorry to take you back some pages, but i was away. Ok i agree to disagree but before i do that please answer me the following so that i know how you view this:

You are Miranda, and Commander Shepard comes in and starts chatting up at you and eventually point blank asks you "Why did you join cerberus?".

So the Miranda you have in your head... how would she really answe that? And after you think that tell me one good reason why the in game Miranda fails to even remotely mention in that reply, any political, ideological or moral connection to Cerberus.

Miranda: "It's...not easy to explain after all these years. My father always told me I was special, I was better, smarter than others, but he never said what for. You could say I was looking for a purpose. And there came the Illusive Man, with his project of advancing humanity. It felt.....right for me to be part of something that big. Big enough to justify all my enhancements. For the first time in my life, I felt good about what I was, for I represented one face of the advancement we were working for, and I could put my skills to good use. "

Miranda: "What human advancement means for me? It means taking control of and ultimate responsibility for our existence and improving it. Every aspect of it. Our technology, our biology, our political standing, and more. One thing I always valued is knowledge. I recall hearing the Cerberus manifesto for the first time. ' we will watch the dark places...and bring illumination, [...] not just to survive, but for the betterment of mankind.' I was....touched. I found it inspiring. In comparison with that, everything else seemed....petty. "

Miranda: "Mind you, most of this I couldn't have expressed in words back then. When I made the choice, I wanted to be part of something meaningful and of course to protect Oriana. But I still believe in that original project, no matter what the Illusive Man has made of it since. "

And alxboss78, we don't get to hear things in this detail because the writers in a game must leave a lot of vagueness in order to leave something for players' imagination to fill in. Of course my version is not the only possible interpretation, but I think it's in line with Miranda's characterization. For an in-game reasoning: I think Miranda is a very private person. With this, she'd give Shepard the key to her heart, more than we ever see even in the romance. That conversation could take place after the end of ME2. Before, the level of trust required just doesn't exist between them.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2011 - 09:50 .

[alxboss78]

Yes but don't you see that with what you're saying you can always claim that a character is exactly how YOU perceive them, simply stating "the writers have to be vague" or "the writers got this wrong". In the end what is a character? Is it more the perceptions they create in your head or is it what the writer actually intended and actually written?

Of course it is both, but the most important aspect to think of what the character "actually" is and is intended for is to read what the writer of that character has actually written.

What you wrote would be very appropriate for the Miranda in your head. Yet what we got was very different, and for better or worse that is what the writer intended.

For better or worse the MAIN and BASIC reasoning that the writers gave her is protection. You can not like it, but that is what they intended for the character.

[flemm]

alxboss78 wrote...
For better or worse the MAIN and BASIC reasoning that the writers gave her is protection. You can not like it, but that is what they intended for the character.

I actually don't think the writers' intent can be inferred with that type of precision. Both reasons are given: she believes in Cerberus' goals, and her role in the organisation protects her from her father.

I don't think either reason can be deemed more basic or important than the other beyond doubt, or beyond subjective interpretation.

Modifié par flemm, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:06 .

[Ieldra]

alxboss78 wrote...
Yes but don't you see that with what you're saying you can always claim that a character is exactly how YOU perceive them, simply stating "the writers have to be vague" or "the writers got this wrong". In the end what is a character? Is it more the perceptions they create in your head or is it what the writer actually intended and actually written?

Of course it is both, but the most important aspect to think of what the character "actually" is and is intended for is to read what the writer of that character has actually written.

I explicitly said I do not claim that my interpretation is the "correct" one. However, what we're given in the game leaves a lot open to fill in with our imagination. All that's required for a valid interpretation is that it doesn't contradict what we're given - which I don't - and all that's required for a valid and good interpretation in addition to that is that its elements tie in closely with what we're given. I think my interpretation does that.

For the rest, see flemm's response.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:18 .

[Shotokanguy]

I had a pretty detailed dream last night that I think was supposed to be Mass Effect 3. Whatever slipped away from me when I woke up is long gone, but I remember that Miranda was in a lot of it.

I remember Shepard and all of his squaddies meeting up on the new Normandy, which was just silly big and looked sort of like it was made in Minecraft. Jack...some other female...and Thane all had hair, but everyone thought...Thane, I think...had hair better suited for Jack, so they switched so that Jack had this shoulder length blonde, hair with bits of pink, green, and black.

Anyway, the only other stuff I really remember was Shepard accidentally showing Ashley the bed he and Miranda did it on all the time during ME2. I guess. She got mad, but Miranda got more angry at Shepard over something later, and decided to take a small group of people with her on some sort of quest of her own. I thought that was kind of funny, because some of you would've been so happy to see Miranda stand up to Shepard and then steal part of his crew to go fight the Reapers.

The brain is so weird. On top of all that, it went and gave Miranda a slightly different hairstyle, and it didn't look like ME2 hair. It looked like what I imagine hair in ME3 could look like. It moved quite a bit too. How does it come up with that stuff?

[jtav]

How about this? Miranda believes in human advancement as she understands it. She is not deluded or brainwashed or merely looking for belonging. However, it's extremely likely this belief would have expressed itself differently had she not been forced to flee. Perhaps she would have become a scientist proper or become an outspoken public voice for human supremacy. But I believe her belief in the cause is genuine even if the expression of that belief was dictated by circumstance. It;s Cerberus' methods that give Miranda pause, never the overarching goal.

[Eyeshield21]

Hello everybody!
What issue are we talking about?

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

How about this? Miranda believes in human advancement as she understands it. She is not deluded or brainwashed or merely looking for belonging. However, it's extremely likely this belief would have expressed itself differently had she not been forced to flee. Perhaps she would have become a scientist proper or become an outspoken public voice for human supremacy. But I believe her belief in the cause is genuine even if the expression of that belief was dictated by circumstance. It;s Cerberus' methods that give Miranda pause, never the overarching goal.

Something along these lines is how I tend to synthesize the two types of reasons given. There's no doubt that her attachment to the organisation is partly due to her troubled past. She says explicitly that she wants to belong, that she likes "to know her place in the world." That's a significant statement coming from somebody who had to break away from her family and escape her father's domineering ways.

On the other hand, she's too strong an individual to remain loyal to Cerberus if she does not believe in the organisation's goals. She broke away from her father, she's more than independant enough to break away from Cerberus/TIM should the need arise.

Eyeshield21 wrote...

Hello everybody!
What issue are we talking about?

Why Miranda is loyal to Cerberus

Modifié par flemm, 19 octobre 2011 - 10:47 .

[jtav]

On a lighter note:

With it being very likely the VS is bi, Shepard/Miranda/Kaidan would be a perfectly valid love triangle. *mind blown*

I'm not going to be able to show my face around here come March, ami? And Shep's going to be able to fit into a coffee cup.

[jtav]

Dear God, no. But ME3 just got dicey, because they are both irresistible to me. I think there will be problems.

[naledgeborn]

Ah jtav... still giving me heart attacks.

Any new news on Ms. Lawson? Last I got was multiplayer and then I disappeared from Mass Effect forums again.

[jtav]

Nope, not a peep, pther than me having an aneurysm over Ash's concept art.

[MisterJB]

alxboss78 wrote...
For better or worse the MAIN and BASIC reasoning that the writers gave her is protection. You can not like it, but that is what they intended for the character.

Rigth, and you are basing all of this on her second conversation that can happen before her LM. It's fair, protection IS one of the reasons she joined Cerberus.
However, when questioned as to why she chose Cerberus instead of something else after her LM, she does not mention protection. She talks about resources and freedom. Does that mean that protection is, suddenly, not one of the reasons she joined? Or does it simply mean that, since Shepard already knows about it, she doesn't feel the need to repeat herself?
If so, then why is this not appliable to her second conversation, whose purpose was to reveal some of Miranda's backstory mind you? Shepard already knew that she believed in what Cerberus stood for.