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[CrutchCricket]

Hey stupid question over here (well not really stupid in itself but it's probably been done already).

What's your favorite thing Miranda says or does throughout ME2? And let's please stay away from the known controversial quotes. I just spent all day discussing one and like I said earlier all I want to do right now is admire her, and not have to argue some tertiary miniscule detail. I know I don't have to argue anything, but still. Just want to see some love for a while:happy:

Anyway if I have to pick just one it's probably the "promise me you won't die" line. I didn't think much into it the first time around but when I paid more attention, that's when I realized Shepard was really getting into something special and not just blowing off steam before the mission. It's alse the time I the player really fell in love with the character.

And now watch this be one of the dreaded controversy quotes...

[jtav]

Shooting Wilson. In every other BW game, we'd have to put up with the traitor for a whole act, despite his/her identity being obvious. I was ready to throw Miranda a parade.

Will post comments on romance quotes once they're fresher in my mind.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

And now watch this be one of the dreaded controversy quotes...

You might be surprised about how many of those there are.

Criticism is one of the ways love is expressed around here

Anyway, to answer your question, I love just about everything about the Loyalty Mission.

Modifié par flemm, 20 octobre 2011 - 12:51 .

[Dr. Doctor]

 I like that Miranda doesn't immidiately fall for Shepard. When we first meet her she tells us that she hopes that he's worth the time and lives that it took to bring him back. Having a romance based off of a mutual respect is a refreshing change of pace from some of the other romances. 

On the non-romance front I like the fact that Miranda's backstory gives us an example of the downside of scientific progress. ME1 introduced us to a world where genetic modification is a panacea, it cures disease, fixes genetic defects, all with nigh insignificant drawbacks. Miranda shows us the darker side of genetic modification, she's been engineered to be perfect, but there are psychological and emotional effects to that engineering. 

[CuseGirl]

jtav wrote...

Shooting Wilson. In every other BW game, we'd have to put up with the traitor for a whole act, despite his/her identity being obvious. I was ready to throw Miranda a parade.

Will post comments on romance quotes once they're fresher in my mind.

easily one of my favorite scenes, Miranda's sneer and then click-clack BOOM! 

[CuseGirl]

Shotokanguy wrote...
The brain is so weird. On top of all that, it went and gave Miranda a slightly different hairstyle, and it didn't look like ME2 hair. It looked like what I imagine hair in ME3 could look like. It moved quite a bit too. How does it come up with that stuff?

oh thank god, i'm not the only one who has RPG-themed dreams in color.....were the characters in game texture or actual flesh? thats how u kno ur brain was working hard.....

Modifié par CuseGirl, 20 octobre 2011 - 04:50 .

[Skullheart]

One of the thing that I like about Miranda is that she doesn't hesitate. By example shooting Wilson, or to the Eclipse Mercenaries in her LM (even with no renegade interruption).

[alxboss78]

jtav wrote...

How about this? Miranda believes in human advancement as she understands it. She is not deluded or brainwashed or merely looking for belonging. However, it's extremely likely this belief would have expressed itself differently had she not been forced to flee. Perhaps she would have become a scientist proper or become an outspoken public voice for human supremacy. But I believe her belief in the cause is genuine even if the expression of that belief was dictated by circumstance. It;s Cerberus' methods that give Miranda pause, never the overarching goal.

I'm more of this opinion. However the belief in their goals is not THAT strong so as to cloud her judgment, OR the importance she places on other things (integrity, a sense of morality, loyalty to Shepard) is much stronger than her belief in their goals, which is ultimately why she resigns...

Can we all agree to that?

@MisterJB what you say is also a fair point. But like i said many times i never questioned the fact that as jtav mentions above, Miranda to a certain level believes in the same goals. I just said that in the core of her reasoning lies a more basic human need which is protection.

You are a writer and you want to give the reasoning behind the action of a character. The time you will chose to give this main reasoning (the focus if you like) is when that character is asked THAT SPECIFIC question. Of course you will use all other instances in the game to enrich said character's motivation and background, but the fact remains that when your character is being asked that, the answer you will give to the question is the main focus of that character.

That's all i am saying...

[Ieldra]

alxboss78 wrote...

jtav wrote...
How about this? Miranda believes in human advancement as she understands it. She is not deluded or brainwashed or merely looking for belonging. However, it's extremely likely this belief would have expressed itself differently had she not been forced to flee. Perhaps she would have become a scientist proper or become an outspoken public voice for human supremacy. But I believe her belief in the cause is genuine even if the expression of that belief was dictated by circumstance. It;s Cerberus' methods that give Miranda pause, never the overarching goal.

I'm more of this opinion. However the belief in their goals is not THAT strong so as to cloud her judgment, OR the importance she places on other things (integrity, a sense of morality, loyalty to Shepard) is much stronger than her belief in their goals, which is ultimately why she resigns...

Can we all agree to that?

No, we can not.

(1) Miranda has very likely done a lot of questionable things in service of the cause, she even admits that Cerberus crosses lines "all the time" without appearing bothered by that. Of course she has limits, but she also is consequentialist: up to a certain limit, the ends justify the means. Note that I mean *her* cause, her vision of what Cerberus stands for, which may not be exactly the same as TIM's. 

(2) Miranda has become loyal to Shepard because she believes he's doing the best for humanity (and possibly the galaxy). As the example of TIM and Miranda shows, her loyalty is never unconditional. If the other's purpose doesn't align with hers any more, or if the other betrays her, she will not remain loyal. 

You're speaking of integrity, morality, loyalty. Of valuing personal connections over a cause. That's exactly what Miranda is *not*. It seems you want to make Miranda a Paragon. She is not that. She is an anti-hero (see this trope - she's a type III, defined by "Good Is Not Nice" and "I Did What I Had To Do"). She has her own form of integrity in that she's no hypocrite, she sticks to her values and she tends to be honest with you if you're an ally, but she's still perfectly capable of deception - and worse - when it suits her purpose. She values loyalty but if you betray what she values she won't stay loyal to you.    

I think what jtav says in the quoted part is also true.

but the fact remains that when your character is being asked that, the answer you will give to the question is the main focus of that character. That's all i am saying...

Well-written characters are rarely that one-dimensional. There are several aspects I've used in my hypothetical answer on the previous page. Finding a purpose for her gifts, finding a place in the world, doing something meaningful for humanity, protection of Oriana. None of them is irrelevant. Their relative importance may have changed over time, but they're all "main" aspects.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 octobre 2011 - 07:40 .

[alxboss78]

Ieldra2 wrote...
No, we can not.

(1) Miranda has very likely done a lot of questionable things in service of the cause, she even admits that Cerberus crosses lines "all the time" without appearing bothered by that. Of course she has limits, but she also is consequentialist: up to a certain limit, the ends justify the means. Note that I mean *her* cause, her vision of what Cerberus stands for, which may not be exactly the same as TIM's.

Where in my posts have you read anything different?

(2) Miranda has become loyal to Shepard because she believes he's doing the best for humanity (and possibly the galaxy). As the example of TIM and Miranda shows, her loyalty is never unconditional. If the other's purpose doesn't align with hers any more, or if the other betrays her, she will not remain loyal.

 

Did i say that if Shepard turns into a homicidal maniac she would follow him no matter what, because she is loyal to him? Of course his beliefs matched hers, and she saw that humanity can have a different/better(?) advocate than what TIM represented. This also a given for creating a romantic connectioon to him. I never claimed otherwise.

You're speaking of integrity, morality, loyalty. Of valuing personal connections over a cause. That's exactly what Miranda is *not*. It seems you want to make Miranda a Paragon. She is not that. She is an anti-hero (see this trope - she's a type III, defined by "Good Is Not Nice" and "I Did What I Had To Do"). She has her own form of integrity in that she's no hypocrite, she sticks to her values and she tends to be honest with you if you're an ally, but she's still perfectly capable of deception - and worse - when it suits her purpose. She values loyalty but if you betray what she values she won't stay loyal to you.

I'm not trying to view her as Paragon or Renegad or whatever... You say that she has her own integrity... I said she values integrity. Where do our sentences differ?? You said in the previous paragraph that she has her own limits which means she has her own standards of morality. I said she values morality. Again ??? It seems to me that you are unknowningly attributing black and white attributes to human meanings which we all know are only in shades of Grey. So speaking in colors she is the Grey to TIM's anthracite...     

Well-written characters are rarely that one-dimensional. There are several aspects I've used in my hypothetical answer on the previous page. Finding a purpose for her gifts, finding a place in the world, doing something meaningful for humanity, protection of Oriana. None of them is irrelevant. Their relative importance may have changed over time, but they're all "main" aspects.

When you're trying to find motivation for someone, there is always a core truth. A fundamental reason that tips the balance. For example a murderer who killed someone for revenge. That is the fundamental reason of why he did that action. That is the motive. That does not mean that he is one dimensional. He needs to have a tendency for amoral behavior. He needs to have access to a weapon. He needs to have an alibi (or not if he is stupid). There are many reasons why he ended up killing him. But the MOTIVE is usually one. One core/ fundamental reason that tipped the balance in favor of doing an action.

It is true for real people so it is also true for fictional characters. Miranda has a core fundamental motive for joining Cerberus. She says so when directly asked "Why did you join Cerberus?". From then on there are also many other reasons that contributed to that decisions.

So when the time comes to reevaluate said position, the first thing she will consider is has that fundamental reason changed. Then she will of course consider all the other reasons that tie her to that organization. So she wouldn't have made that jump in loyalties if that fundamental reason hadn't changed.

Do you see where i'm getting at?

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
What's your favorite thing Miranda says or does throughout ME2? And let's please stay away from the known controversial quotes.

*When she kills Wilson. Plus the commentary. "Not any more".
*When she rebuffs Shepard's attempt to get personal on Minuteman Station. "I'm not looking for a friend"
*When she decides to talk to her sister. One of the most emotionally complex moments in the game, her facial expression and Strahovski's VA complement each other perfectly.
*"And stop smiling, damn it!"
*When she kills Niket. "I'll miss you....figuratively speaking".
*"Don't get cocky. I put you back together remember? And I do damn good work."
*The whole scene around the kiss.
*After the crew abduction if recruitment options are open, about leaving them to their fate: "That's exactly what we're supposed to do. The mission comes first." Nicely complemented by her "Excellent!" at the SM if you do save the crew and they arrive safely on the ship. She's not callous, but mission-focused.

I'm sure there are more. I wouldn't be able to select one of these moments as my favorite, since they all work together to create Miranda.

And here's one from my headcanon: When Miranda asks Shepard to promise never to sacrifice the mission for her life. Shepard answers: If the fate of humanity hangs in the balance. Then and only then.

[alxboss78]

Ieldra2 wrote...
And here's one from my headcanon: When Miranda asks Shepard to promise never to sacrifice the mission for her life. Shepard answers: If the fate of humanity hangs in the balance. Then and only then.

What do you mean? The canon playthrough but as it happened in your head?

As for the quote itself, granted that it would be an extremely difficult choice to make if that happened, i believe that he indeed wouldn't sacrifice the fate of whole humanity for her.

But let's see a what if situation. If in ME3 there is a dilemma in a mission where there is a bomb in a ship about to take off with hundreds of people in it. And there is also a bomb in a room further away from the ship with Miranda in it (or anyother LI). And you were given the choices: a)attempt to deactivate the bomb near Miranda first and then try to stop the ship or try to stop the one on the ship and then attempt to stop the one on Miranda.

What would you chose to do? The cool thing about something like that would be after you made your choice and you managed to do the first thing, the game to allow you to try to do the second thing but then before you were able to complete it you would fail because you wouldn't have time. That would be cool and gut wrenching...

[Ieldra]

alxboss78 wrote...
Did i say that if Shepard turns into a homicidal maniac she would follow him no matter what, because she is loyal to him? Of course his beliefs matched hers, and she saw that humanity can have a different/better(?) advocate than what TIM represented. This also a given for creating a romantic connectioon to him. I never claimed otherwise.

Actually, it isn't a given that she sees Shepard as better than TIM, and it isn't required for the romance. While Miranda and Shepard are implied to have at least compatible beliefs, the distancing from TIM only happens if you destroy the base. But I concede that I misunderstood your point.

So speaking in colors she is the Grey to TIM's anthracite...

Agreed. Another misunderstanding.

Well-written characters are rarely that one-dimensional. There are several aspects I've used in my hypothetical answer on the previous page. Finding a purpose for her gifts, finding a place in the world, doing something meaningful for humanity, protection of Oriana. None of them is irrelevant. Their relative importance may have changed over time, but they're all "main" aspects.

When you're trying to find motivation for someone, there is always a core truth. A fundamental reason that tips the balance. For example a murderer who killed someone for revenge. That is the fundamental reason of why he did that action. That is the motive. That does not mean that he is one dimensional. He needs to have a tendency for amoral behavior. He needs to have access to a weapon. He needs to have an alibi (or not if he is stupid). There are many reasons why he ended up killing him. But the MOTIVE is usually one. One core/ fundamental reason that tipped the balance in favor of doing an action.

I disagree. Motives can be surprisingly complex. And the thing that tips the balance can be a very small thing. In the case in question, its known that Miranda's father had contact with Cerberus. I count it likely that she knew about them before she fled. So she may have gone to them because they were there, and TIM expressed interest in her, and because she needed to get Oriana away, and because she wanted to do something meaningful with her gifts. She might never have run if one of those factors had not been present, for instance, had her father not been in contact with Cerberus, or even if some minor helpful circumstance hadn't occurred.  Quite possibly she might have ended up with Cerberus even if Oriana hadn't existed. We'll never know.

We do know, however, that all of these factors exist - protection of Oriana, the need escape her father's abuses, to find a place in the world and do something meaningful with her gifts, that she believes in what Cerberus stands for. It's all part of the picture. 

So when the time comes to reevaluate said position, the first thing she will consider is has that fundamental reason changed. Then she will of course consider all the other reasons that tie her to that organization. So she wouldn't have made that jump in loyalties if that fundamental reason hadn't changed.

You make my point for me: the situation with Oriana has not changed. She still needs protection. So why re-evaluate her loyalty now? Clearly, protection of Oriana can't be the most important factor in Miranda's Cerberus loyalty if she can resign, knowing that Cerberus will likely withdraw Oriana's protection, or do even worse. Something else is more important. She never says exactly what, but I think the conclusion that she's discovered TIM's ideals aren't really compatible with her own (any more) is the most likely candidate.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 octobre 2011 - 11:46 .

[Ieldra]

[quote]alxboss78 wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
And here's one from my headcanon: When Miranda asks Shepard to promise never to sacrifice the mission for her life. Shepard answers: If the fate of humanity hangs in the balance. Then and only then.
[/quote]
What do you mean? The canon playthrough but as it happened in your head?[/quote]
A way of saying that I added this scene to Miranda's and my main maleShepard's romance in my mind. I've written it up in a short fanfic[/quote].

[quote]As for the quote itself, granted that it would be an extremely difficult choice to make if that happened, i believe that he indeed wouldn't sacrifice the fate of whole humanity for her. [/quote]
It's a real quandary for more than one reason: if he saves Miranda at the expense of most of humanity, she'll not thank him for it and their relationship might be ruined, if he doesn't, she'll be dead.

[quote]But let's see a what if situation. If in ME3 there is a dilemma in a mission where there is a bomb in a ship about to take off with hundreds of people in it. And there is also a bomb in a room further away from the ship with Miranda in it (or anyother LI). And you were given the choices: a)attempt to deactivate the bomb near Miranda first and then try to stop the ship or try to stop the one on the ship and then attempt to stop the one on Miranda.

What would you chose to do? The cool thing about something like that would be after you made your choice and you managed to do the first thing, the game to allow you to try to do the second thing but then before you were able to complete it you would fail because you wouldn't have time. That would be cool and gut wrenching...[/quote]
We've speculated on similar scenarios often. In this case I'd save Miranda. The stakes are not high enough. My Shepard has done so many things for humanity and the galaxy, he's not required to sacrifice everything.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 octobre 2011 - 11:53 .

[alxboss78]

Ieldra, as it turns out i understand that we disagree mainly on the importance of each factor. While i believe that the tipping factor was that Cerberus provided protection from her father, you aparently consider that reason not more important than all her other reasons, that i just consider additional.

Ok... i can agree to disagree on that. Besides it is a fine point of disagreement i believe and one that could only be answered if Miranda was a real person and we asked her.

I agree that especially with Miranda that would be a difficult decision for my Shepard as well as he wouldn't be able to handle both the guilt of his decision to sacrifice humanity and the certain anger from her that he did something like that.

As for the other dilemma i mentioned, yeah... i guess you're right. The stakes are not high enough... but up to what number of people are the stakes high enough? If they were thousands or hundreds of thousands?? That's always a tough decision and can make for good story telling in my book...

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
And here's one from my headcanon: When Miranda asks Shepard to promise never to sacrifice the mission for her life. Shepard answers: If the fate of humanity hangs in the balance. Then and only then.

She can ask that all she wants but I won't make that promise and neither will my Shepard. Of course nothing is absolute- if I'm given a "kill all reapers" button with the sole consequence that Miranda dies as well, then I guess there's no real choice is there? But I've already decided that if it comes down to it, Shepard could sacrifice nearly his entire crew and millions of unknowns to save her. All I can say is let's hope Bioware never makes me do that.

The only ones I wouldn't be able to sacrifice are Tali, Kasumi and maybe Liara. The ones I wouldn't easily part with are Garrus, Mordin, Joker and  Anderson. Everyone else just has to make peace with this.

I wonder if the relationship would be ruined though? She would hate herself for it, she would hate me for it. But this would come at at later point in time where the relationship would develop more. It is possible their love would get to a point where it might be able to overcome survivor's guilt. I don't know. This is a soft point and I can't really defend it.

[CuseGirl]

Ieldra2 wrote...
And here's one from my headcanon: When Miranda asks Shepard to promise never to sacrifice the mission for her life. Shepard answers: If the fate of humanity hangs in the balance. Then and only then.

when does that happen?

[who would know]

CrutchCricket wrote...

I wonder if the relationship would be ruined though? She would hate herself for it, she would hate me for it.

That would make the choice instantly more compelling. It's like how Ash will not shut up about how bad it was that I saved her instead of Kaidan- not that I appreciate the attitude- but it did seem realistic. And if we start talking millions? Those millions may be faceless, but in the end, Miranda is one person.

Whether or not, given time, the guilt would fade? That should vary by character. I don't feel qualified to guess in Miranda's case, but living with the knowledge that millions died so that you wouldn't? That's gotta be a burden, to say the least.

Modifié par who would know, 20 octobre 2011 - 01:40 .

[Ieldra]

CuseGirl wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
And here's one from my headcanon: When Miranda asks Shepard to promise never to sacrifice the mission for her life. Shepard answers: If the fate of humanity hangs in the balance. Then and only then.

when does that happen?

In my mind. As I said, it's headcanon. Or do you mean where in time? Right after the SM, while they're celebrating their victory. Before Arrival, before they know the plot of ME3 will separate them again. "The" mission is generic.  

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
You're speaking of integrity, morality, loyalty. Of valuing personal connections over a cause. That's exactly what Miranda is *not*.

While I agree with some of your earlier points, I think you're overstating the clarity of this. "Integrity" is not a concept I would really associate with Miranda at all, but morality and loyalty certainly are.

Morality is basically what sets the limits where the ends stop justifying the means. An example of this would be her approval of Cerberus ceasing to experiment on the rachni once they discovered the sentience of the arachni. There's really nothing that suggests experimenting on sentient rachni would be less likely to produce results, so we have to conclude that Miranda simply does not approve of experimenting on sentient beings (in a cruel manner or without their consent, presumably).

 "Loyalty" in particular is a core concept of Miranda's character. She is the loyalist in more ways than one. While I certainly am inclined to agree that loyalty to her cause would trump personal loyalty in a lot of situations, I think it's easy to imagine scenarios where Miranda would have some really, really difficult choices to make. That's especially true given that the "cause" and "ideals" and so on are fairly abstract notions, to the point that it's not even clear that a "results-oriented approach" would favor the cause over personal attachments in all scenarios anyway.

I think it's unequivocally a good thing that it's difficult to say where, exactly, Miranda draws the line in these areas. It's part of what makes her interesting.

Modifié par flemm, 20 octobre 2011 - 01:48 .

[CrutchCricket]

who would know wrote...

That would make the choice instantly more compelling. It's like how Ash will not shut up about how bad it was that I saved her instead of Kaidan- not that I appreciate the attitude- but it did seem realistic. And if we start talking millions? They may be faceless millions, but Miranda is one person.

Whether or not, given time, the guilt would fade? That should vary by character. I don't feel qualified to guess in Miranda's case, but living with the knowledge that millions died so that you wouldn't? That's gotta be a burden.

Yeah luckily I was able to tell her to just deal with it. I pretty much made that choice for Ashley as well (also because Kaiden sucked as a squadmate for me).

It is a little extreme and not very realistic if you could do that and just be fine afterward. But in this series I've decided to let go of my usual cyncism regarding romance and adopt a huge suspension of disbelief that sappy stuff can and does happen. If Miranda can't or won't return my level of affection, meh. Story of my life. As long as there's something.

It's funny. My Shepard is of the Ruthless background but I lean more towards paragon, sometimes making him the Atoner. Yet when it comes down to it, I always revert to my ruthless side and make the terrible decisions to get the job done. I sacrified the council, I didn't warn the batarians etc. But the way my Shepard figures it this relationship is the one time he'll use his ruthlessness for himself. So if that means sacrificing a lot of people so be it.

What would interest me is an option in which you sacrifice millions for her but are able to disguise your actions, for example claiming a technical difficulty or something. That way she's in the dark for a while (she may find out eventually). Meanwhile it can and probably does tear you up inside later on. If there's a reveal/confrontation you get a chance to sacrifice yourself to save others and be redeemed (sort of).

[CuseGirl]

Ieldra2 wrote...
In my mind. As I said, it's headcanon. Or do you mean where in time? Right after the SM, while they're celebrating their victory. Before Arrival, before they know the plot of ME3 will separate them again. "The" mission is generic. 

got it.....if they force that choce on me, i'm gonna be so pissed....i think i might make an extra save right before the major mission, i'm not losing Miranda....

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
You're speaking of integrity, morality, loyalty. Of valuing personal connections over a cause. That's exactly what Miranda is *not*.

While I agree with some of your earlier points, I think you're overstating the clarity of this. "Integrity" is not a concept I would really associate with Miranda at all, but morality and loyalty certainly are.

You've taken my statement a little out of context by dropping the part I answered to. To clarify: I should've said morality - understood as what people usually mean in everyday speech when they use that word - isn't what defines Miranda. It isn't the first thing, nor the second or third, that would pop into your mind when considering Miranda. As for loyalty, you said it best:

"Loyalty" in particular is a core concept of Miranda's character. She is the loyalist in more ways than one. While I certainly am inclined to agree that loyalty to her cause would trump personal loyalty in a lot of situations, I think it's easy to imagine scenarios where Miranda would have some really, really difficult choices to make. That's especially true given that the "cause" and "ideals" and so on are fairly abstract notions, to the point that it's not even clear that a "results-oriented approach" would favor the cause over personal attachments in all scenarios anyway.

I wanted to describe a tendency, not an absolute. Also in the quoted part, I was answering alxboss, who appeared to say "loyalty to Shepard" is a core trait of Miranda. Which I don't think it is.

I think it's unequivocally a good thing that it's difficult to say where, exactly, Miranda draws the line in these areas. It's part of what makes her interesting.

That I can agree with.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 octobre 2011 - 02:11 .