82210 réponses à ce sujet

[flemm]

Well, I would look forward to "not pursuing it" in ME2, then "pursuing it" in ME3. Would be great to have that as an option, and I will definitely devote a playthrough to it, if it turns out to be available.

Modifié par flemm, 21 octobre 2011 - 03:51 .

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

Well, it's entirely possible I'm reading too much into it, but I wanted to give credit where it was due. Another hopefully interesting point: this is a romance where the most tender/romantic/affectionate moments are tied to rejection and self-denial. I'm not a particular lover of tragedy. My genre of choice by definition requires a happy ending. But things seem sharper, more real, more genuine when on or both are choosing not to pursue this. Shepard in particular benefits.

Well self-denial sure, but hopefully not rejection. I'm not sure I've analyzed this as much as you but one thing I have noticed with Miranda that may run parallel to what you're saying is the best dialog options for the romance aren't top-right. Ever since I've started playing I've defaulted to the "paragon spot" for romances, not because of morality or personal inclination but because I wanted to "max" the progression of it (as inane as that sounds). With Miranda however the best options are either middle or bottom right- case in point the "lock in" convo- much more affectionate to say "I don't care" and refuse to promise than to joke and "lie". Also it's a "renegade" option that lets you get a kiss in early:lol:.

Anyway I'd support your theory with an analogy: a gun with a charge-up firing mode. You can fire a few weak shots or charge up and fire one devastating one.

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...

Well, I would look forward to "not pursuing it" in ME2, then "pursuing it" in ME3. Would be great to have that as an option, and I will definitely devote a playthrough to it, if it turns out to be available.

I thought Mass Effect frowned on that. Like if you didn't get in when the opportunity was there, you don't get in at all. Example: You can stay single in ME1 and not be able to get with Liara after the Shadow Broker. Or am I misinformed?

*edit: I realize precedent doesn't necessarily mean they won't change it. But do we have any info on that?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 21 octobre 2011 - 04:01 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
I thought Mass Effect frowned on that. Like if you didn't get in when the opportunity was there, you don't get in at all. Example: You can stay single in ME1 and not be able to get with Liara after the Shadow Broker. Or am I misinformed?

Well, LotSB is a special case so far. There's no romance path: either you're already in it, or you're not.

Some returning LI characters will be like that in ME3, while others will not. Confirmed in a tweet that I will now try to find...

Edit: can't find it right now and don't have time to keep looking, but the long and the short of it is, you will be able to romance some of the returning LIs even if you did not already lock in that romance in a prior game. But not all.

Modifié par flemm, 21 octobre 2011 - 04:15 .

[naledgeborn]

GodWood wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...
Miri was stuck in the God forsaken Lazarus Station in Deep Space for 2 long years. What did she do, other than bring us back to life, to keep herself sane?

Jacob.

I lol'd.

+ 1. You're going to make some people cry if that keeps up JB.

[jtav]

I dispute your notion that middle and bottom choices are always better, but I want to save detailed thoughts for when the scenes are fresher in my mind.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Couple of weeks? Man I just went to sleep a night ago and there were like three new pages the next morning. "Support Miranda- The thread that never sleeps":blink: lol

You weren't here in the early days of the ME2 thread. You went to sleep and came back to find 20 pages added. Keeping up was *work* back then. Fortunately most of it was fluff.

ME1 favoritism: What's this all about? We all really hope Miranda's the exception but even if she is why is Bioware dumping on the other characters? They've got a raw deal to begin with anyway given their sole purpose for existing is to be expendable for the suicide mission because God forbid we actually risk the VS. Liara and Wrex getting plot armor again makes sense given their expanded role but why's Ashley/Kaidan so damn important? Not the place to discuss this I know but it really bugs me.

There are two main problems with giving all returning team members their due: (1) There were too many characters to begin with. ME1 was just right, ME2 had about double the number beyond which it's impossible to integrate them all into the story. Even if you only take the eight (!) surviving LI characters, that's too many to write a good story around. (2) Everyone but Liara can't be plot-critical, because they can all die. At least with Ashley/Kaidan, there's one of those two guaranteed to survive so you can make them critical by writing two alternative story arcs. That's extremely complicated and not economic with a cast of eight or fifteen. IMO the mistake Bioware made was to make a game with twelve characters who could all die in any combination.     

Selective squad post SM: Could you not achieve similar results by not recruiting some people? I know the first round is mandatory (although you don't need to let Grunt out) but the second round isn't or at least not fully. Killing specific combos of people seems weird to me but if you're on the hundreth playthough might as well do something different I guess.

There are varous motivations for doing that: (1) Perfect endings are boring. The ME1 writers knew that and put Virmire in. (2) I'm using the games to write my Shepards' stories. At the moment, it's a bit of a gamble but when I've played ME3 once and know the outcome, I'll go back and let team members die and survive based on the ending I like best, which is of course not the "best" ending but the one that fits my Shepards best. (3) If, say, Garrus and Tali are permanently on the team and Miranda is not, I'll kill Garrus and Tali in ME2 because every time I saw one of them, I'd be reminded that they undeservedly got permanent slots in all three games while Miranda only had one in spite of all her story potential and popularity. I would get angry every time I looked at one of them in ME3. Better not to have them in the first place.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

I dispute your notion that middle and bottom choices are always better, but I want to save detailed thoughts for when the scenes are fresher in my mind.

No need. I didn't mean to say all Miranda romance convos are best done through middle/bottom choices (since in at least one case that would end it). Unfortunately it does read that way. I think my point still stands that the Miranda Romance brought a welcome exception (to some degree) to always choosing top-right.

[Genshie]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Prudii Aden wrote...

Go away for a couple of weeks and the thread explodes. Any news? (Apart from multiplayer)

Selective squad post SM: Could you not achieve similar results by not recruiting some people? I know the first round is mandatory (although you don't need to let Grunt out) but the second round isn't or at least not fully. Killing specific combos of people seems weird to me but if you're on the hundreth playthough might as well do something different I guess.

Also the pictures as always are astounding!

Well you need to recruit Tali for her ship upgrade but besides doing that and loyalty quests you can get a complete SM without anyone dying without recruiting Thane or Samara.  (Since Kasumi and Zaeed are two extra memebers, Thane is not really good for anything in SM, there is Jack to replace Samara during the biotic field portion, and you can do it with giving Legion away, but why would you do that since he/it/they is awesome) I would wake up Grunt mainly for the defense score at the end but I have done runs without waking him up. (Unfortuantly Tali may die if you don't)

[naledgeborn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

There are two main problems with giving all returning team members their due: (1) There were too many characters to begin with. ME1 was just right, ME2 had about double the number beyond which it's impossible to integrate them all into the story. Even if you only take the eight (!) surviving LI characters, that's too many to write a good story around. (2) Everyone but Liara can't be plot-critical, because they can all die. At least with Ashley/Kaidan, there's one of those two guaranteed to survive so you can make them critical by writing two alternative story arcs. That's extremely complicated and not economic with a cast of eight or fifteen. IMO the mistake Bioware made was to make a game with twelve characters who could all die in any combination.     

I have to disagree here. Sure it wouldn't be an optimal use of resources, but making a game with 8-10 interwoven story arcs is possible. This isn't a 2 hour film were talking about here. 30-50+ hours allows for sufficient enough time for this type of story telling. Taking into account time spent on game play and added content due to importing that's roughly 10 movies or a TV mini-series give or take. They could do all characters justice if they wanted, at the very least a large core group of vital characters like Miranda.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
There are two main problems with giving all returning team members their due: (1) There were too many characters to begin with. ME1 was just right, ME2 had about double the number beyond which it's impossible to integrate them all into the story.

ME3 seems to be a game that is mostly about recruiting allies for a big battle, a bit like DA:O. So, what I think will likely happen is that most returning squad members will have their appearances focused on a particular area of recruitment where a variety of outcomes are possible, like in DA:O, where you had the Dalish, Deep Roads, Templar/Mages, etc.

So, major recruitment sections of the game in ME3 would be like: Quarian/Geth, Krogan/Salarian, Terminus systems (Aria), probably the other counsel races (turian, asari), and maybe a couple of others.

So, for example, the Mordin, Wrex (and maybe Grunt) material would be in the Krogan/Salarian section of the game, whereas the Legion/Tali material would fit in the corresponding section, etc.

This should allow for substantial appearances that don't clog up the main story. If characters survive the SM, they provide new/better options in each "recruitment" area (that you don't have if they died). So, they are significant, and not just token appearances. Then, maybe they join you later, for the final battle, as faction leaders (or equivalent).

Where would Miranda fit into this? Well, it seems to me that Cerberus/TIM would fit approximately where Loghain fits in DA:O: he is opposing Shepard, but also the Reapers. And dealing with him is like a big, mandatory step toward confronting the Reapers.

That could mean Miranda is with you throughout the main story until that point, or it could mean she joins you just prior to that. Something like that, maybe.

Modifié par flemm, 21 octobre 2011 - 04:25 .

[naledgeborn]

^ I like the sound of that. Sure it's been said before, but not enough. And having Miranda present for the "Loghain" confrontation would be very satisfying.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You weren't here in the early days of the ME2 thread. You went to sleep and came back to find 20 pages added. Keeping up was *work* back then. Fortunately most of it was fluff.

Well you didn't get one of the biggest threads on this board by twiddling your thumbs:happy:

There are two main problems with giving all returning team members their due: (1) There were too many characters to begin with. ME1 was just right, ME2 had about double the number beyond which it's impossible to integrate them all into the story. Even if you only take the eight (!) surviving LI characters, that's too many to write a good story around. (2) Everyone but Liara can't be plot-critical, because they can all die. At least with Ashley/Kaidan, there's one of those two guaranteed to survive so you can make them critical by writing two alternative story arcs. That's extremely complicated and not economic with a cast of eight or fifteen. IMO the mistake Bioware made was to make a game with twelve characters who could all die in any combination.

Yeah they created loads and loads of characters to protect just 2 (I'm not counting Wrex since he could die in ME1) and to sell the "everyone can die" scenario. However Wrex pioneered the strategy for dealing with possible death- introduce some family member/close friend/collegue expy to replace them if they died. Of course this wouldn't work as well in a squad situation... and now I realize I come full circle as this is probably exactly what they'll do for ME2 characters and it will still result in brief apperances. Well then...<_<
Still think the VS isn't any better than any ME2 squadmates and thus doesn't deserve a free pass.

There are varous motivations for doing that: (1) Perfect endings are boring. The ME1 writers knew that and put Virmire in. (2) I'm using the games to write my Shepards' stories. At the moment, it's a bit of a gamble but when I've played ME3 once and know the outcome, I'll go back and let team members die and survive based on the ending I like best, which is of course not the "best" ending but the one that fits my Shepards best. (3) If, say, Garrus and Tali are permanently on the team and Miranda is not, I'll kill Garrus and Tali in ME2 because every time I saw one of them, I'd be reminded that they undeservedly got permanent slots in all three games while Miranda only had one in spite of all her story potential and popularity. I would get angry every time I looked at one of them in ME3. Better not to have them in the first place.

Fair enough. Although if Miranda is not merely displaced by Garrus and Tali because they're more popular but actually just not meant to be a permanent squadmate (pretty much the worst thing ever), how is it better to still have them dead and possibly deal with some new chumps that have to fill the gap?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 21 octobre 2011 - 04:33 .

[jtav]

flemm, they've already confirmed Tali/Garrus as permanent/main.

I'm inclined to be more charitable to new characters because they're new. They're only in one game and I haven't had to deal with them for an entire trilogy. Any new characters are potential new favorites. Like Miranda become. My opinion on the old guard is well set, and if I have to spend another thirty hours with some of them without Miranda to compensate, I'm going to pop a blood vessel.

[flemm]

To build on my speculation above, I think one of the more interesting possible ways Miranda could be involved in the game would be as leader of a rebel Cerberus faction that only exists if she survives the SM. She doesn't join the squad, but she helps you deal with Cerberus along the way.

So, instead of just TIM's forces showing up to mess with you as you try to recruit the Krogans and/or Salarians, for example, you get Miranda showing up as well to help you deal with them. Almost like she is leading a permanent fire team.

jtav wrote...
flemm, they've already confirmed Tali/Garrus as permanent/main.

Doesn't contradict what I said above. Tali, for example, was "permanent/main" in ME2, but her material was focused on the Quarian situation. Garrus doesn't really have a built-in plot hook, but the bulk of his material could be focused either on C-Sec, or maybe the Turian fleet or whatever.

"Nothing is permanent" would then refer to the various possible outcomes of those sections of the game, i.e. Garrus/Tali can either stay with you or graduate to faction leader, as well as perhaps die, I guess, potentially. Or you just choose not to recruit them in favor of one of the other options.

Modifié par flemm, 21 octobre 2011 - 04:48 .

[jtav]

Which isn't going to prevent me from dragging her around the Citadel in a bit. As opposed to Liara who I can use only for one mission.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...
I'm inclined to be more charitable to new
characters because they're new. They're only in one game and I haven't
had to deal with them for an entire trilogy. Any new characters are
potential new favorites. Like Miranda become. My opinion on the old
guard is well set, and if I have to spend another thirty hours with some
of them without Miranda to compensate, I'm going to pop a blood
vessel.

Well dislike for the characters specifically is understandable. If you hate'em you hate'em. It just didn't make sense to me to take it out on them if the lack of Miranda was your only beef.
Personally any new character will have to go some ways to mitigate my emnity because I do blame them for potentially reduced roles of not just Miranda but other favorites as well.

flemm wrote...

To build on my speculation above, I think one of the more interesting possible ways Miranda could be involved in the game would be as leader of a rebel Cerberus faction that only exists if she survives the SM. She doesn't join the squad, but she helps you deal with Cerberus along the way.

So, instead of just TIM's forces showing up to mess with you as you try to recruit the Krogans and/or Salarians, for example, you get Miranda showing up as well to help you deal with them. Almost like she is leading a permanent fire team.

jtav wrote...
flemm, they've already confirmed Tali/Garrus as permanent/main.

Doesn't contradict what I said above. Tali, for example, was "permanent/main" in ME2, but her material was focused on the Quarian situation. Garrus doesn't really have a built-in plot hook, but the bulk of his material could be focused either on C-Sec, or maybe the Turian fleet or whatever.

"Nothing is permanent" would then refer to the various possible outcomes of those sections of the game, i.e. Garrus/Tali can either stay with you or graduate to faction leader, as well as perhaps die, I guess, potentially. Or you just choose not to recruit them in favor of one of the other options.

All this sounds good for screen time but I still want Miranda on the squad for as much as possible.  The very least I'll accept is her being on a ship/base like the Shadow Broker's that I can go to anytime I want and talk to her.

[jtav]

*predictive hat on*

I don't think she'll get less than Thane--if she does, something definitely happened behind  the scenes. But I also think her having as large a role as Tali/Garrus is as unlikely as a one-scene cameo for various reasons I've outlined elsewhere.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

jtav wrote...

I dispute your notion that middle and bottom choices are always better, but I want to save detailed thoughts for when the scenes are fresher in my mind.

No need. I didn't mean to say all Miranda romance convos are best done through middle/bottom choices (since in at least one case that would end it). Unfortunately it does read that way. I think my point still stands that the Miranda Romance brought a welcome exception (to some degree) to always choosing top-right.

You always chose top/right except in the Miranda romance? Well then your Shepard is likely someone who has no business romancing Miranda in the first place

There are many Renegade and middle options better than Paragon options throughout the game. Intimidation options as a rule are quite good. The problem is the Renegade paraphrases often sound like you end up being a jerk while what Shepard actually says isn't like that. Quick-save before a conversation and try a few. You'll be surprised. 

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
All this sounds good for screen time but I still want Miranda on the squad for as much as possible.  The very least I'll accept is her being on a ship/base like the Shadow Broker's that I can go to anytime I want and talk to her.

Well, I should probably note that the "permanent fire team leader" idea is quite far-fetched, though I like it on a conceptual level.

More likely is either a significant appearance at a specific point in the game, much like Mordin. Or a longer stay on the squad.

Modifié par flemm, 21 octobre 2011 - 05:17 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Where would Miranda fit into this? Well, it seems to me that Cerberus/TIM would fit approximately where Loghain fits in DA:O: he is opposing Shepard, but also the Reapers. And dealing with him is like a big, mandatory step toward confronting the Reapers.

That could mean Miranda is with you throughout the main story until that point, or it could mean she joins you just prior to that. Something like that, maybe.

Sounds good, except the main question is: where will she appear and will we actually be able to recruit her? If it's just that mission with the TIM confronation at its end plus the endgame, that's not enough. No squad banter, no mission comments etc.... Urgh. No. Definitely not enough. Though if they let Miranda take control of Cerberus and make that one of the biggest contributions to the War Assets I *might* forgive Bioware for it. But I'd still kill Garrus and Tali. OK maybe only Garrus, because Tali's important for the quarian contribution and I'd rather have quarians than Council species...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 octobre 2011 - 05:22 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Sounds good, except the main question is: where will she appear and will we actually be able to recruit her?

Well, yeah

I dunno, obviously

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Fair enough. Although if Miranda is not merely displaced by Garrus and Tali because they're more popular but actually just not meant to be a permanent squadmate (pretty much the worst thing ever), how is it better to still have them dead and possibly deal with some new chumps that have to fill the gap?

If one of the new ones is a human female with an operative-like background, I'll resent her just as much, but otherwise new team members, by definition, can't get the preferential treatment of Garrus and Tali. No one can, because no one else was there for two whole games before ME3.

[flemm]

The Garrus/Tali comparison is completely moot imo. There's simply no overlap there at all, either for plot involvement or for role on the squad. So, Miranda's role, large or small, would have been determined independantly of them in all likelihood.

Modifié par flemm, 21 octobre 2011 - 05:42 .

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You always chose top/right except in the Miranda romance? Well then your Shepard is likely someone who has no business romancing Miranda in the first place

There are many Renegade and middle options better than Paragon options throughout the game. Intimidation options as a rule are quite good. The problem is the Renegade paraphrases often sound like you end up being a jerk while what Shepard actually says isn't like that. Quick-save before a conversation and try a few. You'll be surprised. 

Wow so did not say that, no would I ever. In fact one of my biggest complaints for ME2 is how it forces you to always go paragon or renegade thoughout the whole damn game because if you want to have a shot at the tougher convos (I'm looking at you Miranda/Jack fight!) you need to keep in mind their BS hidden percentage score system. No, no I lean towards paragon but there are times where Shepard needs to take down a mofo. Besides my Shep's Ruthless. Yes he's sort of the atoner by being more paragon in the games. But there's no way he just did a 180 once he hit Eden Prime.

What I said (and maybe did so ambiguously in later posts) was that in romance convos I'd go top-right. I remember having the "distrust the aliens" talk with Ashley in ME1 and picking top right had me call her cynical and for her views and I remember thinking, why am I picking these options? That's the complete opposite of what I'd say. But I was new and the instinct was top good, bottom evil.