82210 réponses à ce sujet

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
If one of the new ones is a human female with an operative-like background, I'll resent her just as much, but otherwise new team members, by definition, can't get the preferential treatment of Garrus and Tali. No one can, because no one else was there for two whole games before ME3.

Yeah but in that case wouldn't you also be thinking "wow instead of bringing Miranda back they created this assclown? I know I would.

[jtav]

flemm, you're overlooking something. Pretend I'm BW. I need to draw in new people, but I also need to reassure old fans by bringing back favorites. And Tali and Garrus are insanely, vocally loved, and I'll probably have a riot on my hands. So, if I can only bring back two people, they're it.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

flemm, you're overlooking something. Pretend I'm BW. I need to draw in new people, but I also need to reassure old fans by bringing back favorites. And Tali and Garrus are insanely, vocally loved, and I'll probably have a riot on my hands. So, if I can only bring back two people, they're it.

Yes Tali and Garrus are more popular but I've never bought that whole "we need new characters for new players" line. Seriously? Take Vega- he's supposed to represent the "new player experience" (whatever that means).

Represent it how? Someone new to Mass Effect will think everything's new. They won't even know who's newer (at least at first). Are they talking about "remember old times" moments? Really? Like a handful of quotes that may or may not be heard is going to totally ruin the game for newb players because they don't know "what's going on?"

Example: Metal Gear Solid. You play through that, there's like a million references to dozens of backstories in like every cutscene. I hadn't played the previous games. Was I lost? Not really. You just accept that stuff happened before you got onto the scene (like in real life) and you move on. And Metal Gear is crazy convoluted.

New characters are waste of space until proven otherwise. And more damning, waste of space that Miranda and other favorites could've filled.

[MACharlie1]

CrutchCricket wrote...

New characters are waste of space until proven otherwise. And more damning, waste of space that Miranda and other favorites could've filled.

Miranda was a new character in ME2...a role that could have easily been filled by Ashley. Or a role split between Dr. Chakwas, Ashley, Anderson...whoever. 

Do you understand how drab things would get if nobody new was introduced? 

Modifié par MACharlie1, 21 octobre 2011 - 06:14 .

[CrutchCricket]

MACharlie1 wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

New characters are waste of space until proven otherwise. And more damning, waste of space that Miranda and other favorites could've filled.

Miranda was a new character in ME2...a role that could have easily been filled by Ashley. Or a role split between Dr. Chakwas, Ashley, Anderson...whoever. 

Yes, hence the "until proven otherwise". There may very well be a Miranda 2.0 (as blasphemous as that sounds on here) and if there is, she may convert some of us and definitely will get a fan base of her own. But until then she's in the way and I can't be faulted for resenting that.

Do you understand how drab things would get if nobody new was introduced?

Yes I do. I'm not one of those "they changed it, now it's RUINED FOREVER" fanatics. Hence why I'm open to new characters redeeming themselves through awesomeness. And who said "new" has to mean "permanent"? Give me a whole parade of new support characters and temps, but careful with the permanent positions if you're setting the cutoff so high.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 21 octobre 2011 - 06:20 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Well, it's entirely possible I'm reading too much into it, but I wanted to give credit where it was due. Another hopefully interesting point: this is a romance where the most tender/romantic/affectionate moments are tied to rejection and self-denial. I'm not a particular lover of tragedy. My genre of choice by definition requires a happy ending. But things seem sharper, more real, more genuine when on or both are choosing not to pursue this. Shepard in particular benefits.

Absolutely. I definitely don't mind such moments in a romance. As long it ends happy, the story can only benefit from some twists and turns. Actually I'm hoping for a moment in ME3 where things look hopeless for Miranda and Shepard.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

flemm, you're overlooking something. Pretend I'm BW. I need to draw in new people, but I also need to reassure old fans by bringing back favorites. And Tali and Garrus are insanely, vocally loved, and I'll probably have a riot on my hands. So, if I can only bring back two people, they're it.

I'm not overlooking it so much as stating that I don't think the development of the squad included the choice you are describing. We won't know for sure for a while, though, of course.

MACharlie1 wrote...
Miranda was a new character in ME2...a role that could have easily been filled by Ashley. Or a role split between Dr. Chakwas, Ashley, Anderson...whoever.

Well, not without changing the whole plot of the game. There certainly need to be some new characters, but more emphasis on returning makes sense in the finale of a trilogy like this. And there likely will be more emphasis on returning characters than in previous games. Exactly where the balance will be struck is unclear.

Modifié par flemm, 21 octobre 2011 - 07:27 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
flemm, you're overlooking something. Pretend I'm BW. I need to draw in new people, but I also need to reassure old fans by bringing back favorites. And Tali and Garrus are insanely, vocally loved, and I'll probably have a riot on my hands. So, if I can only bring back two people, they're it.

I'm not overlooking it so much as stating that I don't think the development of the squad included the choice you are describing. We won't know for sure for a while, though, of course.

I think jtav's reasoning has merit. At some time, they must have decided which team members to bring back in a bigger way than others. I there wasn't such a choice, we wouldn't have some returning characters who only get cameos while others are recruitable and remain on the team. The only open question is how many returning characters will be recruitable as opposed to fixed for one mission or cameo'd.

So, explain why you think there wasn't such a choice. I find that claim rather far-fetched.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
So, explain why you think there wasn't such a choice. I find that claim rather far-fetched.

What you just stated is much broader than the previous comment by jtav. Of course, some decision had to be made as to who to bring back, that goes without saying.

It's the "we can only bring back two, so it has to be Garrus and Tali" reasoning that I was referring to specifically.

Modifié par flemm, 21 octobre 2011 - 07:34 .

[jtav]

I think three is probably the outside side limit. We already have four returning characters, and the only BW sequel I can think of that didn't have significant fresh blood was Throne of Bhaal. And Tali and Garrus are the two potentially dead squad mates that would make the most hardcore fans happy.

[Dr. Doctor]

One thing that could be interesting to see is if Shepard's actions change as a result of romancing certain characters. For instance the romance path with the VS would have Shepard returning to the Alliance.

With Miranda, I sort of picture both her and Shepard feeling like they really don't fit in aboard the Normandy, He's considered a traitor, and she's an ex-Cerberus agent, and judging from how most of the non-Cerberus crew reacted to her (see Garrus' no one on the squad trusts you line in ME2) no one other than Shepard is going to be on her side.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I think three is probably the outside side limit. We already have four returning characters, and the only BW sequel I can think of that didn't have significant fresh blood was Throne of Bhaal. And Tali and Garrus are the two potentially dead squad mates that would make the most hardcore fans happy.

Even so, the choice, where Miranda is concerned, would more likely have been, "do we create a new human female character and/or a new sentinel, or do we bring back Miranda?" than the situation you are describing (where Garrus, Tali and Miranda are fighting for two squad slots).

Modifié par flemm, 21 octobre 2011 - 07:48 .

[CrutchCricket]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

One thing that could be interesting to see is if Shepard's actions change as a result of romancing certain characters. For instance the romance path with the VS would have Shepard returning to the Alliance.

With Miranda, I sort of picture both her and Shepard feeling like they really don't fit in aboard the Normandy, He's considered a traitor, and she's an ex-Cerberus agent, and judging from how most of the non-Cerberus crew reacted to her (see Garrus' no one on the squad trusts you line in ME2) no one other than Shepard is going to be on her side.

Maybe. That'd be interesting. Except the Normandy is Shepard's ship. No he doesn't legally own it, but his actions have cemented the two together. Also EDI IS the Normandy now- I don't think she'd go back to the Alliance like any other ship.
That's another thing that bugs me- why is the Normandy flying Alliance colors again? If anything Shepard should be rogue. Maybe you have the option to break away during the game.

*edit- Hopefully you have the option to break away.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 21 octobre 2011 - 08:02 .

[jtav]

Because the Alliance seized the ship when Shep was arrested.

[jtav]

And flemm, this all started with me trying to explain why I was killing certain characters even though that wouldn't magically give her a larger role and why BW needs new characters. I suspect Miranda's role is determined by a multitude of factors including her perceived popularity, providing a mix of old and new characters, squad balance, and actress availability.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
And flemm, this all started with me trying to explain why I was killing certain characters even though that wouldn't magically give her a larger role and why BW needs new characters. I suspect Miranda's role is determined by a multitude of factors including her perceived popularity, providing a mix of old and new characters, squad balance, and actress availability.

Probably a multitude of factors, sure.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

And flemm, this all started with me trying to explain why I was killing certain characters even though that wouldn't magically give her a larger role and why BW needs new characters. I suspect Miranda's role is determined by a multitude of factors including her perceived popularity, providing a mix of old and new characters, squad balance, and actress availability.

Sorry I didn't catch your take on the necessity of new characters. The tangent I went off on was from something I read on Vega and how he was there for new players.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Because the Alliance seized the ship when Shep was arrested.

I guess an option to re-paint the ship and remove the Alliance bugs is too much to hope for. *grumbles*

[jtav]

1. You need a good mix of powers/abilities. Even the worse player in the world needs and will get a Soldier, someone to throw Warps etc.
2. Ensure that most players will see most of the content without having to replay other games.
3. For the sake of the plot, you need to know that certain people are alive. And I'm thinking that's more than the VS, Liara, and Vega
4. Heck, sometimes you need a new character to do something no one else can
5. Marketing. Someone fresh and exciting to grab the attention of new people.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Because the Alliance seized the ship when Shep was arrested.

I guess an option to re-paint the ship and remove the Alliance bugs is too much to hope for. *grumbles*

I plan to get my revenge by letting Earth burn and doing everything I can to get maximum Alliance casualties.

[wright1978]

I have to say i'm on tenter hooks about the rest of the squad lineup. On the one hand Casey said squaddies won't operate the same way as ME2 but then Tali & Garrus are quickly announced as full squaddies. Have to say i'm worried that the rest of the ME2 crew are going to get sidelined into one mission cameos.

[The Elder King]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Because the Alliance seized the ship when Shep was arrested.

I guess an option to re-paint the ship and remove the Alliance bugs is too much to hope for. *grumbles*

I plan to get my revenge by letting Earth burn and doing everything I can to get maximum Alliance casualties.

I could understand the second part of your post, but I don't understand why you should kill billions of humans because the Alliance took the SR-2 and painted it (unless in ME3 the two things will be related).
Plus, Bioware did the same things in ME2, forcing Shepard to leave the Alliance and to work with Shepard. I didn't care much in ME2, and I'll not care much in ME3 (though I don't like much how they're forcing Cerberus to be the enemy).

[jtav]

ME2 did a great job bringing out my inner misanthrope. I simply don't like ME humanity that much.

[Ieldra]

@hhh89:
It's not just that. Some of us here don't like the way humans are portrayed in the games so far. We have almost no decent humans who aren't on Shepard's team or ship. After meeting Delan on Horizon, I was beginning to ask myself if humanity is worth saving. Then consider how the Alliance treated Shepard after the battle of the Citadel, how they treated Shepard after Arrival. And the whole "humans are special" thing with no grounding whatsoever is annoying to start with.

Basically, the matter is that the games *tell* us that humans are SOOO special (last instance: exchange with Harbinger in Arrival) while *showing* us mostly idiots and jerks. I have a pro-human Shepard as my main Shepard, but even he wishes that he could selectively kill the idiots on Earth.

Edit:
At least in ME1, we could talk with a few normal people who were neither enemies or on your side. People like that guy in the Wards under the stairway down from the med clinic. And ME1 had Kate Bowman. ME2....no such thing and the "humans are special" agenda was pushed even more. I hate that exchange with Harbinger "That's what humans do". Bah. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 octobre 2011 - 08:51 .

[jtav]

Or um, what Ieldra said. Miranda, Kaidan, and the SR-2 crew are the only reasons I'm not rooting for the Reapers.