82210 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

I thought about mentioning "You want this" but decided against it. It bothers me for much the same reason it bothers Ieldra.

On the other hand, I just did "damn it--you're right." Now that's nearly note perfect. Shepard hanging his head, the throb in Miranda's voice, the handholding, it all just works. If she is an option for new players in ME3, my path is clear. Shepard is more hunan and you can tell how much they both want it.

Ieldra, can I ask why you keep doing the romance and seem more satisfied than me. Because I'm not sure if I want to finish it right now.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
Tali should have been mandatory, Jack optional. She also hates Cerberus and has another, important plot thread.

Euh, well, it's not something that I have a huge stake in either way, but honestly I think having Jack's recruitment be mandatory makes more sense.

The quarian plot is certainly important to the ME story overall, but not as much to ME2 specifically, which is mainly about the twist of Shepard being resurrected by Cerberus.

Tali is the returning character, while Jack is new and ME2-specific. Also, though this is more of a minor detail, Tali's recruitment seems to be the result of the accidental encounter early in the game, and not something TIM was expecting. (IIRC, he mentions that it's a surprise at some point.)

Maybe, but Jack was the character I felt strongly most of my Shepards wouldn't take on the mission. Tali's a trusted friend and Jack an unstable super-biotic you have no idea how to control. I resent that I couldn't play my Shepard in-character and say "OK, we got you out of prison, but that's it. The Illusive Man might think you fit for our mission, but I don't. Now get off my ship."
OK, Jack comes through at the end, but that doesn't change that several of my Shepards wouldn't have given her a chance.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
"The best thing he did was to put you on my squad".

Not to be missed

jtav wrote...
On the other hand, I just did "damn it--you're right." Now that's nearly note perfect. Shepard hanging his head, the throb in Miranda's voice, the handholding, it all just works. If she is an option for new players in ME3, my path is clear. Shepard is more hunan and you can tell how much they both want it.

I really hope so, because I do like this option. Feels relatively mature. And there's plenty of emotion there.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Maybe, but Jack was the character I felt strongly most of my Shepards wouldn't take on the mission. Tali's a trusted friend and Jack an unstable super-biotic you have no idea how to control. I resent that I couldn't play my Shepard in-character and say "OK, we got you out of prison, but that's it. The Illusive Man might think you fit for our mission, but I don't. Now get off my ship."

I think what I would change is the dialogue options during the recruitment. Shepard comes off as extremely weak, almost like s/he is scared of Jack, by either allowing her/himself to be cowed, or by lying to her. Rather than just having the option to deal with her in a way that is honest, but not cowardly.

Possibly this goes back to what Hah Yes Reapers was saying about the writers being afraid too many people would just ditch Jack. But I think actually it would have  improved the whole interaction if her recruitment remained mandatory, but you had the option to deal with her in a more confrontational manner.

Miranda is actually the one who reacts as Shepard should have the option to react.

Modifié par flemm, 22 octobre 2011 - 09:11 .

[naledgeborn]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

 Mark Meer's strength is that he can do funny and sarcastic very well, as his backround is in comedic acting, the issue is that Shepard doesn't really get to show as broad a range of emotions in ME2. Meer's performance in Lair of The Shadow Broker was a definite step up from what we get in the main game.

What interests me however is when Liara asks how Shepard is doing at the end she says that she wants the truth, not the reassuring facade that he puts up for the crew. This would suggest that Shepard does have fears and worries of his own, but bottles them up because he's expected to be the fearless Commander. What I really want is a scene similar to the Locker Scene in ME1 with the ME2 romances.

You continue being the **** Dr. Doctor. The LotSB scene did hint at Shepard maintaining a facade of fearless infallibility. So it kind of gave me the thumbs up for cutting Meer some slack. And if LotSB is a preview of things to come that means that we can roleplay Shepard to be vulnerable when appropriate (like one-on-ones with Miranda)..   

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
On the other hand, I just did "damn it--you're right." Now that's nearly note perfect. Shepard hanging his head, the throb in Miranda's voice, the handholding, it all just works. If she is an option for new players in ME3, my path is clear. Shepard is more hunan and you can tell how much they both want it.

Ieldra, can I ask why you keep doing the romance and seem more satisfied than me. Because I'm not sure if I want to finish it right now.

I think it's because I find it easier to rewrite things in my head, and because I know that if the romance goes well in ME3 and avoids those problems there, I can treat the annoying lines in this scene as retrospectively insignificant 

That's not to say that parts of the last scene don't bother me as much as they do you. One reason why I'm replaying my main Shepard is to push the romance nearer to the end of the game, so that, should it turn out that you can rekindle the romance in ME3, I can go back and choose "damn it, you're right" without having to play through too much of ME2.

To this end, I'll be playing things this way: all LMs, then LotSB, then Arrival, then Reaper IFF. After Reaper IFF, the romance conversation with the kiss, then Legion's LM, the last romance conversation and the SM. So mainly, I'd only need to replay Miranda's last romance scene before the O4 relay and the SM.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 octobre 2011 - 09:18 .

[jtav]

Okay, headcanon version of the romance:

Shepard and Miranda decide to be noble and put things off until the SM. Then Arrival happens and suddenly there are no more tomorrows or second chances after the SM because Shepard is either going to be KIA or executed. But God help them, they do care about each other. Miranda's decides to go through with sex at the last moment as a physical expression of real feeling. And it's faster to do it in the engine room. Jack never hit on Shepard, and Tali isn't talking to him after her trial. The only stumbling block is the missing crew, and well, Shep's a dead man himself. Thing's can't get more ghoulish.

Well, I like it.

[CrutchCricket]

naledgeborn wrote...

Lore-wise, other than Gillian Grayson, Jack is the most powerful human biotic. That could come in handy in a suicide mission with the goal being to save human lives. If Shepard can't command respect from an unstable, volitile criminal he doesn't deserve to be in command of an entire ship/crew. Military officers are trained for that sort of thing. Part of Officer Training School is getting a room of kindergarteners to "work together" cohesively.

Edit: Typos galore.

Meh. From what I know, strongest human biotic still doesn't really
compare with even moderately strong asari biotics. You could've just
switched Jack for Samara and gotten the same strength if not more. And if "controlling psychos" was a requirement for officer training there'd be a lot less of them and a lot more serial killers in the military.
It doesn't even matter if Shepard himself should be able to handle her. Story-wise it doesn't make sense for pragmatists like Cerberus to spend all this money getting the best commander and ship for the most important mission and then just throw in a wild card for ****s and giggles. But whatever. I'm sure the Jack thread has dealt with this at length.

Regarding Shepard's lack of visible vulnerability, even in ME1 the only time he ever showed any was when the Normandy was grounded and he was out of options. I think regardless of background or the way you play Shepard, he's the kind of guy that's always in commander mode and will power through regardless. Also Liara can tell him to drop it and tell her how he really feels even if she wasn't romanced. I think that's a function of actually letting people get close and/or going through hard times together. We have every reason to expect Miranda could do the same thing in ME3 even if we don't get another "locker scene"

Either that or he came back wrong and he can only stay in commander mode- Lazarus wanted to bring back Commander Shepard and bring him back they did- but the person Shepard is still lost. That might be an interesting path although the nature of it sort of excludes it only being an alternative and I don't think I'd like that to be the main path.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Also Liara can tell him to drop it and tell her how he really feels even if she wasn't romanced. I think that's a function of actually letting people get close and/or going through hard times together. We have every reason to expect Miranda could do the same thing in ME3 even if we don't get another "locker scene"

Probably a sign of a shift in design philosophy and, I think, a positive one. Previously, the thought-process might have been: Shepard should be relatively impassive to allow the player to roleplay the situation in a variety of ways. This would have been like an extension, or a vestige, of how RPGs like this work with a non-voiced protagonist (like in DA:O). Only the NPC actually emotes.

But now they are moving more toward an "interactive movie" style, which probably works better when the protagonist is voiced.

Really looking forward to the character interactions in ME3, as they are likely to be similar in style to LotSB. Reunion scene with Miranda should be really interesting.

I wonder if there will be Renegade or Paragon interrupts, or both

Modifié par flemm, 22 octobre 2011 - 09:43 .

[Ieldra]

@jtav:
Did you give over the evidence at Tali's trial?

[jtav]

I'm not there yet, but I will. This is my "Screw you, Bioware I'm doing what I want" game. So the evidence is getting handed over. Tali dies, as do Garrus, Grunt, and Zaaeed. Thane and Samara are making it out of sentimentalism, and Jack deserves a happy end.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I'm not there yet, but I will. This is my "Screw you, Bioware I'm doing what I want" game. So the evidence is getting handed over. Tali dies, as do Garrus, Grunt, and Zaaeed. Thane and Samara are making it out of sentimentalism, and Jack deserves a happy end.

Heh....yet another instance of cloned brains. I thought of exactly that as well. Only be careful. This works better with a loyal Tali, since if you kill all the heavy hitters, it's easy to get two deaths on holding the line, which will include either Kasumi or Jack, assuming that you let Mordin be escort. 

My current setup (everyone is loyal):
Vents: Garrus
FT1 leader: Jacob
Biotic specialist: Jacob
FT2 leader: Zaeed
Escort: Mordin
Squad for The Long Walk: Miranda and Grunt
Final boss: Miranda and Jack
Dead at holding the line: Tali

The problem I have is the discrepancy between the SM calculator and the SM guide: do you get a second death only at HTL < 1.5 or already at HTL <= 1.5? I chose to be on the safe side with HTL = 1.67.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 octobre 2011 - 10:42 .

[jtav]

Well, technically Zaaeed will survive, since he can be killed on his LM. But if I can confirm only one death at 1.5, I'll skip recruiting him altogether.

[Shotokanguy]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
But Miranda isn't speaking as his 2IC, but as his lover. If he can't be vulnerable with her when she's pouring her heart out to hin, this relationship is doomed. No one is in or out of control 100% of the time, but the power dynamics are tilted decidedly in Shep's favor here. What makes it galling is that there will never be a moment where Miranda needs to be strong and comfort Shep, which would have mitigated my crticisms a good deal.

Again 100% agreement. Shepard's unbearable here. In fact, this scene was the main reason for my old thread "Why I don't like ME2's Commander Shepard", with my main criticism being that he always speaks from high up, even where it's totally inappropriate. And "Come on, Miranda. You want this" - I don't know what to say. That's so stereotypical, almost sexist. Why the hell can't he admit that he wants her? *Grumbles*

I hope we'll get a balancing scene in ME3.

Uh, question for several of you...
Most of you weren't satisfied with the romance, right? It would only make sense not to be. I've used the word "paltry" to describe the experience before. There's so little there. I hardly feel like I spent any time with Miranda. You guys understand and agree, I assume?
If so, why is Shepard a problem in these scenes? Calling Miranda his "lover" at this point in their relationship seems a bit overboard.

It's funny, the first time I played the game, when I got to this scene and Miranda said "a good time for love?" my reaction was "Love? What? I've flirted with her like, twice!" Naturally, I picked the "Love?" response, and was disappointed by the response.

But at the same time, I don't think it would've been any better for Shepard to be treating Miranda like the love of his life when I didn't even know at that point if I liked Miranda more than Ashley.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Well, technically Zaaeed will survive, since he can be killed on his LM. But if I can confirm only one death at 1.5, I'll skip recruiting him altogether.

Why? Do you want five deaths on the SM? My setup will get Zaeed, Garrus, Grunt and Tali killed on the SM with no necessity to leave anything unrecruited at a HTL score of 1.67. And you can still do Zaeed's LM since his death doesn't depend on loyalty.

Or do you want the Migrant Fleet in disarray? I like the quarians and would rather let the turians or asari take a hit in ME3.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 octobre 2011 - 10:56 .

[flemm]

Shotokanguy wrote...
But at the same time, I don't think it would've been any better for Shepard to be treating Miranda like the love of his life when I didn't even know at that point if I liked Miranda more than Ashley.

Well, I think it's just a question of how the scene works overall. What the player thinks about it is a different story, and will vary a lot. But to me the difference is obvious between how Strahovski handles her lines, compared to Meer. Miranda's lines work, and feel sincere, just because they are well-acted. Whereas, imo, Shepard's don't because they just feel sort of empty. That doesn't mean he should be on his knees proposing marriage.

Modifié par flemm, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:01 .

[jtav]

The same way you can accept two people in a musical are now in love because they sang a song together--an awareness of the compression necessitated by story structure. ME2 has horrible pacing, but there's only a little less content than ME1. So I would like the option for Shepard to treat Miranda as if this relationship is at least as serious as ME1--and I've definitely heard the word love thrown around there. But Shepard can't let his guard down around Miranda the same way he does in the locker scene.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
Well, technically Zaaeed will survive, since he can be killed on his LM. But if I can confirm only one death at 1.5, I'll skip recruiting him altogether.

Why? Do you want five deaths on the SM? My setup will get Zaeed, Garrus, Grunt and Tali killed on the SM with no necessity to leave anything unrecruited at a HTL score of 1.67. And you can still do Zaeed's LM since his death doesn't depend on loyalty.

Or do you want the Migrant Fleet in disarray? I like the quarians and would rather let the turians or asari take a hit in ME3.

A very strong belief that turning over the evidence is right.

[Ieldra]

@Shotokanguy:
I think Shepard should acknowledge his attraction to Miranda instead of asking her if she's afraid to care about someone. Then, Miranda should answer with her usual line, with only the "time for love" part dropped, after which Shepard should say something about their possible death and he'd regret never having known her better. Miranda then asks him not to die as usual, and the "no promise" option is changed to "I can't promise that, but knowing you're there I'll try extra hard" in a not completely serious voice.

I'll try to write an alternative scene up, but not today. It's getting late.

@jtav:
Ah....yes, that I understand. It's only my annoyance at that political trial that makes me always choose the intimidate option. I rather like the scene that follows.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:08 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
A very strong belief that turning over the evidence is right.

This is one of those decisions that I hope has an interesting outcome in ME3. Overall, the whole situation, and the involvement of Tali's father, seems to push the player toward concealing the evidence and sympathizing with the pro-war faction, whereas the guy pushing for peace comes across as less sympathetic.

Modifié par flemm, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Ieldra]

@flemm:
Concealing or giving over the evidence has nothing to do with sympathizing with either faction. You have the option to either wish the quarians luck in the war or advise them not to go the war regardless of the option you choose for ending the trial. Not quite sure if you have the option if you give over the evidence, but in every other case you have it.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@flemm:
Concealing or giving over the evidence has nothing to do with sympathizing with either faction. You have the option to either wish the quarians luck in the war or advise them not to go the war regardless of the option you choose for ending the trial. Not quite sure if you have the option if you give over the evidence, but in every other case you have it.

Yeah, I guess it's actually two separate decisions. Anyway, it should be interesting to see what the various outcomes are.

Modifié par flemm, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:14 .

[Ieldra]

Hmm...now I'm thinking of making giving over the evidence my choice in my main Shepard's game. For I think this decision shouldn't be about Tali's feelings rather than the need of the Admirals to know what has really happened on the Alarei. This should be the Paragon decision btw.. Too bad that Bioware wrote the worst outcome for the fleet around that.

And it would have the additional advantage that I don't need to consider Tali's feelings at the engine room scene since we're not on speaking terms and her infatuation with Shepard has been broken.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:25 .

[jtav]

I might risk it, as soon as I decide whether Jack or Kasumi is more expendable.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think Shepard should acknowledge his attraction to Miranda instead of asking her if she's afraid to care about someone.

In fairness, he does say he cares about her earlier. The "you want this" line is, I think, supposed to sound macho and confident, but it doesn't really come across that way.

Modifié par flemm, 22 octobre 2011 - 11:27 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think Shepard should acknowledge his attraction to Miranda instead of asking her if she's afraid to care about someone.

In fairness, he does say he cares about her earlier. The "you want this" line is, I think, supposed to sound macho and confident, but it doesn't really come across that way.

He says that only in the Paragon version of the earlier scene, which excludes the kiss and has a few other problems as already mentioned. I also think this "I care about you" is rather weak.