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[jtav]

I'm rooting against the quarians atm. Their--I'd almost call it an honor culture--gives me the creeps. I may spare Tali after all. "To tell the truth is thus a duty; but it is only in respect to one who has a right to the truth. But no one has a right to a truth which injures others" And the Admiralty Board has no right to the truth because they were never interested in justice.

And I just spent twenty minutes looking up the doctrine of mental reservation over this.

Modifié par jtav, 23 octobre 2011 - 06:32 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I'm rooting against the quarians atm. Their--I'd almost call it an honor culture--gives me the creeps.

Tbh, most of the alien cultures in ME bore me to tears. I think this is mostly because I've been a fan of this type of sci-fi for quite a while, so I've seen it all before. Mostly the aliens are just riffs on Star Trek races or BSG, or whatever. The Krogans (Klingons) especially are boring, though the whole genophage situation is interesting.

The Salarians are an exception. I like what we've seen of them a lot, and I'd love to see more.

[JeffZero]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...

I'm rooting against the quarians atm. Their--I'd almost call it an honor culture--gives me the creeps.

Tbh, most of the alien cultures in ME bore me to tears. I think this is mostly because I've been a fan of this type of sci-fi for quite a while, so I've seen it all before. Mostly the aliens are just riffs on Star Trek races or BSG, or whatever. The Krogans (Klingons) especially are boring, though the whole genophage situation is interesting.

The Salarians are an exception. I like what we've seen of them a lot, and I'd love to see more.

Despite the increased depth of the races in Trek, Babylon 5, BSG and so forth, I still find the alien races rather interesting in Mass Effect. To me, riffs or not I do feel they have some individualistic traits.

Some small things like the quarians not being human cast a separate shade. The krogan debilitation brought on by the genophage draws parallels to the destabilization of the Klingon Empire after the fall of Praxis but takes that gig to an extreme and it's very enjoyable, as you mentioned. The salarian lifespan isn't done often enough even in Trek among the greater races; the aliens almost always outlive us or share our general livelihood. I like seeing that fast-paced living that the salarians must deal with; it's comparabe to how we must be in regard to Vulcans, Romulans... asari.

What I'm getting at here is that the twists are just enough that I don't ever feel bored, personally.

[flemm]

JeffZero wrote...
What I'm getting at here is that the twists are just enough that I don't ever feel bored, personally.

Good post. To be more precise about my own feelings, I'm not bored by the story. Interesting plot elements, like the genophage, make the whole thing work for me. But what they've done with the alien races themselves, as far as their distinctive traits are concerned, doesn't really pique my interest for the most part, as it's been done with more depth in other settings.

So, for example, I find the Krogan to be dull and predictable as a pulp sci-fi alien race, but the genophage plot is interesting.

Modifié par flemm, 23 octobre 2011 - 06:48 .

[JeffZero]

flemm wrote...

JeffZero wrote...
What I'm getting at here is that the twists are just enough that I don't ever feel bored, personally.

Good post. To be more precise about my own feelings, I'm not bored by the story. Interesting plot elements, like the genophage, make the whole thing work for me. But what they've done with the alien races themselves, as far as their distinctive traits are concerned, doesn't really pique my interest for the most part, as it's been done with more depth in other settings.

So, for example, I find the Krogan to be dull and predictable as a pulp sci-fi alien race, but the genophage plot is interesting.

Ah, yes. Admittedly if the actual plot developments surrounding the various races were not as interesting I'd definitely find the races mostly pretty boring compared with space operas past. I see what you mean.

[jtav]

Speaking of question dodging: has it occurred to anyone else that the control chip comment might have been Miranda's way of dodging questions about Lazarus? She brings it up when Shepard asks to know more. The statement is so provocative that it distracts Shepard and the player from pressing her on the issue of how it was implemented. And if the Reaper tech theory is true, she has reason to do that.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Speaking of question dodging: has it occurred to anyone else that the control chip comment might have been Miranda's way of dodging questions about Lazarus? She brings it up when Shepard asks to know more. The statement is so provocative that it distracts Shepard and the player from pressing her on the issue of how it was implemented. And if the Reaper tech theory is true, she has reason to do that.

Well, it's occurred to me in the past that the line is mostly intended to end discussion on the subject and be off-putting, rather than to communicate an actual piece of information about what Miranda recommended. It's basically a way of saying, **** off, I don't want to talk anymore now.

A woman who looks like Miranda, and has her personality, would doubtless have a lot of experience dealing with people who want to talk to her when she's not interested. So, it might just be a way of drawing a line between her and Shepard at that point.

Imagine Miranda getting hit on in a bar on illium. I could easily imagine her saying something like that to end the conversation in a hurry.

But the idea that there might be something specific about the Lazarus project itself that she doesn't want to talk about is an interesting one. Could be.

Modifié par flemm, 23 octobre 2011 - 07:09 .

[jtav]

Oh, I have no doubt it;s true.But it;s also the last time the mechanics of Lazarus are touched on, and I'd willing to bet most players were too busy spluttering to notice she didn't actually tell you anything about what *did* happen, only what didn't.

Prediction: Miranda's going to be even more divisive in ME2.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
Prediction: Miranda's going to be even more divisive in ME2.

I certainly hope so. Miranda should never be a safe character.

I've always been a big fan of the control chip line, for example. It almost sounds like she's about to say something self-deprecating,  but then...

Modifié par flemm, 23 octobre 2011 - 07:29 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I'm rooting against the quarians atm. Their--I'd almost call it an honor culture--gives me the creeps. I may spare Tali after all. "To tell the truth is thus a duty; but it is only in respect to one who has a right to the truth. But no one has a right to a truth which injures others" And the Admiralty Board has no right to the truth because they were never interested in justice.

And I just spent twenty minutes looking up the doctrine of mental reservation over this.

This is the reasoning I've been using for not giving over the evidence in all my games so far. I do not find it convincing, though, since it's the quarians as a community who deserve to know the truth, not just the admirals. 

Never knew that reasoning had a name.

[Ieldra]

About Lazarus: recall Mac Walters saying that he "reviewed the odd detail" about it. I think we can expect it to become a topic. And as little as I like it, a Reaper technology connection appears very likely at this point.

As for the control chip comment: I don't think it was written with the intention of letting Miranda deflect questions. I think it was written to put Shepard off-balance and show that she isn't one who falls over her own feet to worship him. However, it can reasonably be interpreted as a deflection of questions, especially if the Reaper tech connection exists.

Damn it, can't the time to March 9 pass faster...

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

About Lazarus: recall Mac Walters saying that he "reviewed the odd detail" about it. I think we can expect it to become a topic. And as little as I like it, a Reaper technology connection appears very likely at this point.

Yeah. I remember you mentioning at some point that you thought Reaper tech involvement might lessen the scientific achievement, and my initial reaction was to basically agree. But, having mulled it over a bit more, I'm not sure. It would mean the Lazarus team successfully exploited Reaper tech, for one thing, which is pretty impressive. Could also be Prothean, I suppose.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Damn it, can't the time to March 9 pass faster...

At the very least I guess we might find out pretty soon if fan theories about Strahovski doing her ME3 work when Chuck wraps in November are accurate.

Modifié par flemm, 23 octobre 2011 - 08:07 .

[Dr. Doctor]

The question I have about the Lazarus Project is what happens in the event that something goes wrong? Miranda's the only remaining member of the science team and unless she has backup copies of the notes and procedures used to bring Shepard back, and keep him running we could be in trouble.

On the subject of the control chip:

Miranda: Perhaps I was mistaken when I suggested installing the control chip.

Shepard: (kisses Miranda on the cheek) Because I have you to keep me in line?

Miranda: (smirks) I was going to say that you didn't try to kill us or comandeer the ship, but your explanation works too.

[naledgeborn]

@ Dr.Dr.

TIM is the All Seeing Eye of Mass Effect. He will have extensive copies of his 8 billion credit project. Whether he's willing to give them up or whether Shep and Miranda have to scrap for it is another matter.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
I'm rooting against the quarians atm. Their--I'd almost call it an honor culture--gives me the creeps. I may spare Tali after all. "To tell the truth is thus a duty; but it is only in respect to one who has a right to the truth. But no one has a right to a truth which injures others" And the Admiralty Board has no right to the truth because they were never interested in justice.

And I just spent twenty minutes looking up the doctrine of mental reservation over this.

This is the reasoning I've been using for not giving over the evidence in all my games so far. I do not find it convincing, though, since it's the quarians as a community who deserve to know the truth, not just the admirals. 

Never knew that reasoning had a name.

It's not quite the same, and it's a very Catholic doctrine. My actual reason is that I fet sorry for her and what kind of universe am I running here?

I consider a Lazarus-Reaper connection likely. The Miranda hate would go through the roof.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I consider a Lazarus-Reaper connection likely. The Miranda hate would go through the roof.

Well, it can't influence future games any more, so I don't care. For me Reaper technology has never had that aura of being evil or unfathomablly dangerous.

@flemm:
Yes, I thought it would lessen the scientific achievement, but you're absolutely right - adapting Reaper technology is just as impressive. Apparently when I said that, I unconsciously bought into that "technology paths" reasoning I disagree with.

[BancsBubbl3]

Miranda. F*ck Yea.

So damn awesome even death cowers before her.

[jtav]

Because she has lines there.

Damn it, now even Garrus is getting spared. Shepard is a big softie.

[CrutchCricket]

BancsBubbl3 wrote...

Miranda. F*ck Yea.

So damn awesome even death cowers before her.

lol. Apparently even if you pick a bad biotic for the long walk and she gets taken by the seeker swarms she still comes back.

This more than anything gives me hope for ME3.

[jtav]

Again, she has lines. Once she's said them, no plot armor. Assume nothing.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

Again, she has lines. Once she's said them, no plot armor. Assume nothing.

Irrelevant. She gets a free pass through 2/3rd of the SM and is only vulnerable for the rest if not loyal. And if we get down to it those lines could've been said by someone else, Jacob or Garrus maybe (as the other "good leaders"). Expanded role in ME3 is not the cause of survival in ME2, it'd be wrong to assume that. But expanded role as a consequence of greater probability of survival? That follows. May still turn out to be wrong. But inference is valid.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
I consider a Lazarus-Reaper connection likely. The Miranda hate would go through the roof.

Well, if Lazarus does have a connection to Reaper tech, it will likely contribute to Shepard having some kind of advantage against them and contribute to their defeat. In which case, Miranda and her science team will have been more or less directly responsable for saving the entire galaxy. 

So... assume nothing

Modifié par flemm, 24 octobre 2011 - 12:10 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
I consider a Lazarus-Reaper connection likely. The Miranda hate would go through the roof.

Well, if Lazarus does have a connection to Reaper tech, it will likely contribute to Shepard having some kind of advantage against them and contribute to their defeat. So, Miranda and her science team will have been more or less directly responsable for saving the entire galaxy. 

So... assume nothing

Either that or be even more susceptible to them (his cybernetics got hacked in Overlord). So assume... even less than nothing?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 24 octobre 2011 - 12:11 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Either that or be even more susceptible to them (his cybernetics got hacked in Overlord)

Initially, maybe, but if there's one thing we can be absolutely sure of, it's that Shepard gets to play hero/space jesus in the end. Lazarus is a big part of what makes Shepard special, ergo it is extremely likely it will have positive results in the long run.

Indoctrination or "assuming control" of the player character also strikes me as unlikely. The whole premise of the game is the player controling Shepard.

Modifié par flemm, 24 octobre 2011 - 12:51 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...

Initially, maybe, but if there's one thing we can be absolutely sure of, it's that Shepard gets to play hero/space jesus in the end. Lazarus is a big part of what makes Shepard special, ergo it is extremely likely it will have positive results in the end.

No doubt, Bioware isn't setting us up for a fall. But his cybernetics could very well be a liability, one he has to overcome with heroic willpower. No way to tell yet.