82210 réponses à ce sujet

[naledgeborn]

DP

Modifié par naledgeborn, 24 octobre 2011 - 03:02 .

[naledgeborn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BTW, I'm nearing the end of the SM and I'd been thinking of roleplaying here. The result is that everyone survives. All replays of this year have had deaths on the SM and I'm sick of it. Cyrus Shepard is a good commander and knows the skills of his team. Also Miranda has lead both fire teams. I didn't do that in my earlier games because I wanted her with me, but who does Cyrus Shepard trust to do that more than Miranda?

Jacob Taylor. 

Edit: Not more, but you have to remember TIM put Jacob on the roster for a reason.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 24 octobre 2011 - 03:03 .

[CrutchCricket]

naledgeborn wrote...

A Miranda betrayal/deception based plot twist. What are you opinions on it?

My personal take on it is, nay. Why? Even though Shepard is as bright as 1AM on a moonless night, I'm tired of the protagonist being played like a sucker by a pretty girl. Makes men in general look bad as well the hero look stupid. Two recent examples come into mind.

Adam Jensen being obviously played by Megan Reed (and it doesn't stop there Namir makes it personal and takes her as his lover). I saw it coming a mile away and though the protagonist would be compromised and clouded by his personal stake the deception shouldn't have been so painstakingly obvious to the player. It makes Adam look like a passive idiot.

Second, BioWare's own, Hawke yet again proves how stupid he is for letting Tallis pull his strings like a puppet during MotA. Not only does Hawke not notice the "House of Tides" markings on her armor, but even as an anti-Qunari let's her get away with her mission objective without any action.

These are my only concerns with a betrayal scenario. I know Shepard isn't usually the smartest kid on the playground, but when something is made obvious to me from a metagame perspective, from a roleplay perspective it makes the protagonist seem like a complete tool.

If a deception plot arc is to happen it should take me (the player) completely by surprise. Only way I'd let it slide.

Thoughts?

It'd be pretty out of the blue regardless since from what I've seen that's not the direction Bioware is heading with Miranda at all. It seems to me that it was suggested merely to keep her from becoming a space housewife which is apparently a huge concern here though I would disagree that there's any evidence to that end. Even if there were something like this is overkill. I think that just as you've provided examples of women that ended up betraying the hero so too can we provide other examples where a badass action girl joins the hero, maintains her asskicking without becoming a goody-good and is ultimately instrumental in saving the day.

flemm: Miranda taking over Cerberus seems pretty solid in fan's minds. But I wonder why something like that would cause a conflict/ possible rift with Shepard? I think one of  the things ME2 did was show the galaxy isn't all the Alliance or the Citadel. There are alternatives. And in the process it also showed the limitations of both. As a result I'm not particularly attached to either, nor I think, is Shepard. Thus if Miranda took over Cerberus Shepard wouldn't automatically be opposed to it. It wouldn't be the same terrorist "anything goes" organization the Ilusive man ran (and giving him plausible deniability clouds it even more). She might even take the assets only and reform a new organization, perhaps allied with the Shadow Broker.

[Ieldra]

I've also found out how to avoid the dreadful "soul of our species" line in the epilogue without telling TIM to shut up:

If you kept the base, in the second conversation node with TIM, you get the options "Use it against the Reapers" (upper option) and "This base won't win the war" (lower option) . What Shepard says is "If you hold anything back, you're out" in the first case and "If you start getting selfish and dreaming of power, we'll all pay the price" in the second.

In the next node, you'll get "shut up" and another option. That other option is different depending on what you said earlier. If you chose the upper option, you'll get the "soul of our species" line, if the lower, you'll get something like "If you can't keep up, I'll fight the Reapers without you".

[Ieldra]

naledgeborn wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

BTW, I'm nearing the end of the SM and I'd been thinking of roleplaying here. The result is that everyone survives. All replays of this year have had deaths on the SM and I'm sick of it. Cyrus Shepard is a good commander and knows the skills of his team. Also Miranda has lead both fire teams. I didn't do that in my earlier games because I wanted her with me, but who does Cyrus Shepard trust to do that more than Miranda?

Jacob Taylor. 

Edit: Not more, but you have to remember TIM put Jacob on the roster for a reason.

It was a rhetorical question. Cyrus Shepard - my Shepard - trusts Miranda and Jacob both, but thinks Miranda is more competent.

[naledgeborn]

New page, new pic.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 24 octobre 2011 - 03:47 .

[CrutchCricket]

naledgeborn wrote...


New page, new pic.

Ha! Well played, sir, well played! I don't really approve of the "Miranda looks like Angelina Jolie" line of thinking (mostly because I'm not a fan of Jolie) but this made my day!

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

flemm: Miranda taking over Cerberus seems pretty solid in fan's minds. But I wonder why something like that would cause a conflict/ possible rift with Shepard?

Good points. To respond, I don't think it's necessarily something Shep would have a problem with, but that's something the game would/should let you roleplay either way.

As to why Miranda might not reveal her true intent immediately, I think the answer would be that she might not be sure it's a good idea. Shepard's back with the alliance, a lot of the crew's alliance. So, she might decide that her best bet is to play it cool for a while, win the trust of the crew along the way, then make her move when the moment's right.

Maybe she drops a hint or two in private with Shepard. But then, when she puts her plan into action, you can either support her or not. Coolest scenario would actually be if, past a certain point, you can't stop it from happening. You either support her, or she activates the control chip in your brain. LoL.

Yeah, it's been there all along :happy:

Modifié par flemm, 24 octobre 2011 - 03:58 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

flemm: Miranda taking over Cerberus seems pretty solid in fan's minds. But I wonder why something like that would cause a conflict/ possible rift with Shepard?

Good points. To respond, I don't think it's necessarily something Shep would have a problem with, but that's something the game would/should let you roleplay either way.

As to why Miranda might not reveal her true intent immediately, I think the answer would be that she might not be sure it's a good idea. Shepard's back with the alliance, a lot of the crew's alliance. So, she might decide that her best bet is to play it cool for a while, win the trust of the crew along the way, then make her move when the moment's right.

Maybe she drops a hint or two in private with Shepard. But then, when she puts her plan into action, you can either support her or not. Coolest scenario would actually be if, past a certain point, you can't stop it from happening.

OK I see what you're saying. Since you're Alliance in the first game and "sort of" Cerberus in the second, you can choose between them. Frankly I'd really like to see my Shepard rogue. The Alliance wants to patsy him, Cerberus isn't to be trusted, it's time to take matters into my own hands. The Shadow Broker can give me any other resources I need.

As for Miranda she may still trust Shepard enough but not others around him (particularly the VS- now a spectre). So maybe the takeover ends up being a cross between keeping the base and the Shadow Broker. Something like this?:

Shepard and Miranda finally break into the Ilusive Man's office after a long fight. He's still in his chair sneering.
TIM: And what do you think this accomplishes?
Shepard: We're shutting you down. The Reapers will need to find some other puppet.
TIM: You have no idea of the greater implications. You're blinded to the true path of human ascension. [sees Miranda] I would've expected more from you my dear.
Miranda: Save it. I won't let you betray humanity to the Reapers.
TIM: Betray it? I'm the only one who could save it I...
[Miranda shoots him]
Miranda: It's done.
Shepard: Fine. Let's blow this place and get out of here.
Miranda: We can't.
Shepard: What are you talking about?
Miranda: Everything Cerberus is is controlled from this room. We can't waste resources of this magnitude.
Shepard: This wasn't the plan!
Miranda: Yes. It was.  I would've told you sooner but I couldn't let that Alliance drone interfere. She may be a Spectre but she can't see past her own chain of command.
Shepard: Ashley is under my command.
Miranda: Is she?  She's a Spectre. She doesn't have to answer to you anymore. And she hates me. She'd never trust me with something like this. We're running out of time Shepard. We need this base. And I intend to take it.
[At this point options on the dialogue wheel are left middle and right
middle because I'd hate this to be a paragon/renegade thing]

Left-
Shepard: You're right. The kind of power Cerberus wields would be a great asset in the right hands. And I think yours are the hands to wield it.
Miranda:Thank you Shepard. I'm... going to need some time to reset the protocols. I'll be in touch.

Right-
Shepard: And if I'm not on board?
Miranda: Please... don't make me answer that.

[At this point options on the dialogue wheel are again left middle and right middle]
Left-
Shepard: All right. You want Cerberus, you got it. I just hope you know what you're doing.
Miranda: I'm not stupid Shepard. And I'm not... him [indicating TIM]. I need some time to reset the protocols. I'll talk to you later.

Right-
Shepard: It's too dangerous. Cerberus already had a bad rep and that was before it was working with the Reapers.
Miranda: I can't believe you of all people would say that. I'm sorry. But I have no choice. [Shepard somehow gets incapacitated]. You'll be taken to your ship, the paralysis will wear off then. Goodbye Shepard.

1 If you support her right away no change to loyalty/romance
2 If you express doubt, potentially damaging conversation later
3 If you try and stop her, complete break off.
May include charm/intimidate options that prevent her from taking over in which case you get either 2 or 3 end result.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 24 octobre 2011 - 05:05 .

[flemm]

Wow, nicely done.

[CrutchCricket]

Thanks. I think it hits all the points we'd like it to hit without turning Miranda into Palpatine or some other insidious Xanatos-Gambit-pulling villain-all-along.

[STJebus]

I don't know... just cause Miranda didn't fall at Shepard's feet, which is why most of us like her... doesn't mean she has to do everything against his will... especially in the romance situation idk... the way some of u guys portray Miranda is as if she is "ur" Shepard and Shepard is some stupid jock that has a crush on you that you bully around with ur cold wit. idk i gues that's just not the relationship "my" Shepard has with Miranda, or at all who she is in "my" ME universe

[Dr. Doctor]

 So I've been thinking about Legion's line "The Geth create their own future" and wondering how it could relate to Miranda's views about Cerberus. She doesn't hold any animosity towards the other races, and believes that humanity can work with and learn from them. So perhaps the goal of human advancement is the idea of humanity developing on its own terms instead of having their future dictated to them by entities such as the Council.

If this is the case then it could explain Miranda's loyalty to Cerberus, her father essentialy relegated her to a future that she had little choice over. If she didn't find that life satisfying why wouldn't it be the same for anyone else? The only other thing I can relate the idea to  is Ash's position on aliens in ME1, we can work with them and we can learn from them, but we can't assume that they'll always have our best interests in mind.

[CrutchCricket]

STJebus wrote...

I don't know... just cause Miranda didn't fall at Shepard's feet, which is why most of us like her... doesn't mean she has to do everything against his will... especially in the romance situation idk... the way some of u guys portray Miranda is as if she is "ur" Shepard and Shepard is some stupid jock that has a crush on you that you bully around with ur cold wit. idk i gues that's just not the relationship "my" Shepard has with Miranda, or at all who she is in "my" ME universe

Like I said it probably stems from different interpretations and overcompensation for precieved "weakness". Personally I see them as equals and well in their potential to become a perfect pair in combat and off (if she goes high, he goes low, that sort of thing). I don't buy the "too similar" thing either. So we're probably thinking along the same lines.

Dr. Doctor wrote...

 So I've been thinking about Legion's
line "The Geth create their own future" and wondering how it could
relate to Miranda's views about Cerberus. She doesn't hold any animosity
towards the other races, and believes that humanity can work with and
learn from them. So perhaps the goal of human advancement is the idea of
humanity developing on its own terms instead of having their future
dictated to them by entities such as the Council.

If this is the
case then it could explain Miranda's loyalty to Cerberus, her father
essentialy relegated her to a future that she had little choice over. If
she didn't find that life satisfying why wouldn't it be the same for
anyone else? The only other thing I can relate the idea to  is Ash's
position on aliens in ME1, we can work with them and we can learn from
them, but we can't assume that they'll always have our best interests in
mind.

Good point. I think that's exactly the kind of advancement Miranda sees, one free of dependance on other races. Doesn't mean we need to rule them or wipe them out. Only difference is geth can be competely detached as they don't have the same needs as organics while humanity would likely still be interconnected with the other races. Also humans will adapt and use tech developed by other species while geth likely will not, even if it is small in scale.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Thanks. I think it hits all the points we'd like it to hit without turning Miranda into Palpatine or some other insidious Xanatos-Gambit-pulling villain-all-along.

Yeah. I don't mind the idea of some sort of twist, but I don't find the idea of an outright betrayal plausible at all, given what we've seen in the prior game and everything that is stake while fighting the Reapers. Would make no sense.

Anyway, I thought you did a nice job fleshing out that dialog.

Modifié par flemm, 24 octobre 2011 - 07:39 .

[Ieldra]

STJebus wrote...
I don't know... just cause Miranda didn't fall at Shepard's feet, which is why most of us like her... doesn't mean she has to do everything against his will... especially in the romance situation idk

Of course not everything. But this one thing. For any LI, not just Miranda, there should be one thing which is so important to them that they'll break up with you over it if you persist in a decision against what they want.

For Miranda, that would be something related to her cause. Which is some form of human advancement. I find the scenario posted by CrutchCricket quite plausible. Perhaps it needs some tweaking in detail, but as an outline it's sound.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:25 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Of course not everything. But this one thing. For any LI, not just Miranda, there should be one thing which is so important to them that they'll break up with you over it if you persist in a decision against what they want. 

Having said that, I think with Miranda it could end up going another way entirely. For all we know, it's destroying Cerberus that Miranda wants in ME3. Wouldn't surprise me all that much tbh.

Part of what makes the whole "Miranda takes control of all remaining Cerberus assets" thing attractive, though, is that it would allow her to make a big contribution to the war effort, whereas otherwise it's less easy to see how she would do that, other than as a part of Shepard's team (which is already not too shabby, of course).

Modifié par flemm, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:28 .

[jtav]

In which case, I break up with her because it's not what I want.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Of course not everything. But this one thing. For any LI, not just Miranda, there should be one thing which is so important to them that they'll break up with you over it if you persist in a decision against what they want. 

Having said that, I think with Miranda it could end up going another way entirely. For all we know, it's destroying Cerberus that Miranda wants in ME3. Wouldn't surprise me all that much tbh.

Part of what makes the whole "Miranda takes control of remaining Cerberus assets" thing attractive is that it would allow her to make a big contribution to the war effort, whereas otherwise it's less easy to see how she would do that.

It would surprise me a lot if she went "Cerberus delendum est" in ME3. It would be an extreme character shift. She is, after all, still a proponent of human advancement, and thinks the Alliance doesn't do enough in that regard. Given the Paragon favoritism we see all around, I guess Bioware might want to write her that way, but on the other hand, we don't have any character left who actively promotes human advancement, and we need such a character.

Also, what jtav said.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:33 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
It would surprise me a lot if she went "Cerberus delendam est" in ME3.

It sounds even better in latin

In all seriousness, I think what does make it a tad unlikely is that everybody will pretty much want to destroy Cerberus, so what Miranda brings to the table is a different view, more conflicted, more about redeeming the organisation than destroying it utterly.

I'm pretty fond of the "Cerberus Renegade" approach to Miranda's involvement in ME3, personally.

But I'm less opiniated on this than you guys. There's a direction I think the writers could go in that would lead to Miranda eliminating Cerberus. Maybe not my #1 choice, but I think it could work.

Modifié par flemm, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:39 .

[jtav]

Well, I think it's more that I like Miranda because she has traits I enjoy in characters. But I have no particular "loyalty" to her. I'm looking for a character who ticks certain boxes if you will. As long as Miranda has those traits I'm on board. If not, I start chatting up Liara.

[naledgeborn]

A non Pro-Human Miranda is not Miranda at all. And I see no reason why she would dismantle Cerberus rather than re-purpose it.

[flemm]

Pro-human isn't really synonymous with Cerberus. As long as Miranda is still interested in human advancement through other avenues, I could see her wanting to eliminate an organisation that had essentially become a perversion of its original goals (by advocating ascension, working with the Reapers, whatever).

On a practical level, she might just recognize that Cerberus is done as an organisation, and the ideal of human advancement needs to start fresh elsewhere.

That said, it would surprise me if the writers don't create an option to do something positive with Cerberus in the end, given its prominence in the trilogy as a whole. And Miranda should really be the catalyst for that option, if it is in the game. So I would look forward to that.

Modifié par flemm, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:52 .

[naledgeborn]

^ Cerberus is considered a perversion because they "play with needles". But when the STG does it to the Krogan they catch less flak because they're aliens.

Cerberus is needed. Other races have it. Humanity should too.

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
So I've been thinking about Legion's line "The Geth create their own future" and wondering how it could relate to Miranda's views about Cerberus. She doesn't hold any animosity towards the other races, and believes that humanity can work with and learn from them. So perhaps the goal of human advancement is the idea of humanity developing on its own terms instead of having their future dictated to them by entities such as the Council.

If this is the case then it could explain Miranda's loyalty to Cerberus [...]

I think Miranda will continue to be written as vague about her views on human advancement, if only for the reason that the more specific she gets, the less compatible she'll be with people's very specific personal visions.

Also, the geth have it easy. They are a completely separate "nation". For humanity, the return to total isolation is neither feasible nor desirable. Cultural and technological exchange is desirable and inevitalbe, and I think Miranda would see it the same way from what she says. So what exactly would "making our own future" mean apart from not being bound by those Council regulations everyone agrees must go anyway? The kind of advancement Cerberus can bring is technological and political, so IMO Miranda would want humanity to be leading in technology and one of the political superpowers of the galaxy, but that's still rather vague.