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[flemm]

naledgeborn wrote...

^ Cerberus is considered a perversion because they "play with needles". But when the STG does it to the Krogan they catch less flak because they're aliens.

Well, if TIM decides that what's best for humanity is ascending to Reaper-hood, then I think we can safely call that a perversion of the organisation's original goal of human advancement. A lot of this depends on how exactly ME3 plays out. Hypothetically, though, I could see destroying Cerberus and starting fresh being the better option.

Modifié par flemm, 24 octobre 2011 - 08:57 .

[jtav]

Destroying the money, the tech, the sane people who are left? That would be extremely foolish. The name may have to go, but not the resources o original idea.

[CuseGirl]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
One would almost think it was intentional, right? Such a little thing like making sure Miranda is there to to say her lines, and such consequences.

I don't see any reason why the lines couldn't have been canned, so it probably was intentional to a point. Not that it necessarily means that much where the next game is concerned.

I dont kno alot about the voice acting industry/profession, but is it possible that they got Yvonne Strahovski to do the role if her role was special? The writers didn't kno how polarizing the character would be, so there's a reason Miranda has this percieved plot armor. I doubt the writers would force Miranda down our throats unless they had a good reason.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
It would surprise me a lot if she went "Cerberus delendum est" in ME3.

It sounds even better in latin

It's the name I've given the reflexive Cerberus hater faction, those people who refuse to admit that Cerberus' agenda has any merit at all. I was inspired by Xilizhra, who reminds of Cato the Elder in her persistence.

In all seriousness, I think what does make it a tad unlikely is that everybody will pretty much want to destroy Cerberus, so what Miranda brings to the table is a different view, more conflicted, more about redeeming the organisation than destroying it utterly.

I'm pretty fond of the "Cerberus Renegade" approach to Miranda's involvement in ME3, personally.

But I'm less opiniated on this than you guys. There's a direction I think the writers could go in that would lead to Miranda eliminating Cerberus. Maybe not my #1 choice, but I think it could work.

Oh, it's certainly possible. Stranger things have happened to characters. But I wouldn't like that Miranda any more. I've always been drawn to her "good is not nice" aspect and her selective consequentialism. If she isn't a grey character anymore, there goes my interest in her. Women embodying (conventional) morality, empathy and social conscience are a dime a dozen and so utterly boring that they don't warrant a second look as far as I'm concerned, if they aren't outright annoying.

Edit:
Should TIM favor Reaper-izing humanity, Miranda would see him stopped. But that doesn't mean all the information and the resources would need to be destroyed. That would be foolish in the extreme. If everyone's indoctrinated, it's possible all personnel has to be eliminated. I can also see that a new organization made from Cerberus' remains might need to be named differently, but I can't see Miranda totally denying the need for some kind of "humanity's STG".

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 octobre 2011 - 09:12 .

[naledgeborn]

jtav wrote...

Destroying the money, the tech, the sane people who are left? That would be extremely foolish. The name may have to go, but not the resources o original idea.

This.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Destroying the money, the tech, the sane people who are left? That would be extremely foolish. The name may have to go, but not the resources o original idea.

Why associate yourself with an organisation that collaborated with a group of beings bent on culling all sentient life in the galaxy?

Talk about a PR nightmare

Even as a symbolic gesture, destroying Cerberus assets could be important. And perhaps not much of an obstacle to Miranda starting over with her own resources (that she inherited from her father, for example). Obviously the personnel is a different story and would have to be dealt with individually, according to their involvement.

In a game like this I expect we might actually see Miranda simply repurpose Cerberus, since there's no real reason to deal with the implausibilities of such a scenario. But that's not the only thing that I could see making sense.

CuseGirl wrote...
I dont kno alot about the voice acting industry/profession, but is it possible that they got Yvonne Strahovski to do the role if her role was special?

I think it's not all that complicated: those lines are probably preserved for Miranda, instead of being canned, because she is the lead NPC of ME2. That's probably it, really. 

Modifié par flemm, 24 octobre 2011 - 09:14 .

[The Elder King]

naledgeborn wrote...

^ Cerberus is considered a perversion because they "play with needles". But when the STG does it to the Krogan they catch less flak because they're aliens.

Exactly. Cerberus and the STG work in a similar way. (by the way, I find Mordin and Miranda similar in their personalities and in their methods). The problem is that, from ME, the STG is described as a "hero" organization, and Cerberus as a "villain" organization. In truth, they are (just like any other major organizations and government in ME) "grey" organizations.


About the destruction of Cerberus by Miranda, I think, as jtav said, that it'll be foolish to not use the techs, the resources and the person that survived in ME3, even if you want to create a new organization that has the objective of humanity's advancment.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Why associate yourself with an organisation that collaborated with a group of beings bent on culling all sentient life in the galaxy?

Talk about a PR nightmare

Even as a symbolic gesture, destroying Cerberus assets could be important. And perhaps not much of an obstacle to Miranda starting over with her own resources (that she inherited from her father, for example). Obviously the personnel is a different story and would have to be dealt with individually, according to their involvement.

In real-world politics that never happens. Information and material resources are kept and passed on to the faction that inherits a destroyed predecessor's role or is made from its remains. The public usually doesn't get to know this. That's as it should be. Given the knowledge Cerberus has accumulated, it would be very, very stupid to throw it all away.

[Barquiel]

hhh89 wrote...


Exactly. Cerberus and the STG work in a similar way. (by the way, I find Mordin and Miranda similar in their personalities and in their methods). The problem is that, from ME, the STG is described as a "hero" organization, and Cerberus as a "villain" organization. In truth, they are (just like any other major organizations and government in ME) "grey" organizations.

The STG has some government oversight and isn't run by one person.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
In real-world politics that never happens. Information and material resources are kept and passed on to the faction that inherits a destroyed predecessor's role or is made from its remains. The public usually doesn't get to know this. That's as it should be. Given the knowledge Cerberus has accumulated, it would be very, very stupid to throw it all away.

Yeah, but the in-game scenario that would be equivalent to that type of thing would be, for example, the Alliance defeating Cerberus and keeping their assets, while eliminating the organisation as an organisation. We're talking about keeping Cerberus intact, separate from the Alliance. Real world equivalents of that would be less common, wouldn't they?

Edit: responding to your edit...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I can also see that a new organization made from Cerberus' remains might need to be named differently, but I can't see Miranda totally denying the need for some kind of "humanity's STG".

Yeah, I think in some form or other, she would stay committed to that.

Modifié par flemm, 24 octobre 2011 - 09:42 .

[Ieldra]

Given that it's we, the player, who make the decision, I think there should be a choice. I can't see Miranda submitting to Alliance oversight.

Hmm....one possible scenario is this: Miranda will want to take over and reform Cerberus. If you won't let her, Cerberus will be destroyed and she'll take over her father's business empire instead, which would allow her to continue to work for humanity's advancement within the limits of the law - or whatever law cannot be circumvented by a multistellar corporation - but without being subjected to Alliance oversight. The decision would make the difference between my scenarios "The Illusive Woman" and "The Foundation" (see OP).

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 octobre 2011 - 09:30 .

[naledgeborn]

Barquiel wrote...

The STG has some government oversight and isn't run by one person.

Which only proves that the Council is indirectly responsible for the Krogan condition while publicly keeping their hands clean while throwing Rachni War celebrations.

Cerberus is no more evil than the STG or the Council, oversight or not. I do agree that TIM might be compromised by the time ME3 rolls around, but we know too little about that to make accurate guess work of where his allegiances lie. 

Modifié par naledgeborn, 24 octobre 2011 - 09:32 .

[CuseGirl]

flemm wrote...
I think it's not all that complicated: those lines are probably preserved for Miranda, instead of being canned, because she is the lead NPC of ME2. That's probably it, really. 

i'm just suprised the writers took that risk of making a new character VERY important knowing how rabid some video game fans can be about original characters.....interesting.....

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Given that it's we, the player, who make the decision, I think there should be a choice. I can't see Miranda submitting to Alliance oversight.

Hmm....one possible scenario is this: Miranda will want to take over and reform Cerberus. If you won't let her, Cerberus will be destroyed and she'll take over her father's business empire instead, which would allow her to continue to work for humanity's advancement within the limits of the law - or whatever law cannot be circumvented by a multistellar corporation - but without being subjected to Alliance oversight. The decision would make the difference between my scenarios "The Illusive Woman" and "The Foundation" (see OP).

That would put me in quite a sticky situation because I'm actually fonder of the Foundation scenario thematically, with the despised prodigal daughter returning in triumph.

[flemm]

CuseGirl wrote...
i'm just suprised the writers took that risk of making a new character VERY important knowing how rabid some video game fans can be about original characters.....interesting.....

Well, I think that was the whole point, really. Miranda was a character who was always going to represent this organisation that returning players had been taught to revile in ME1. So, from the beginning, it was a given that she would be polarizing and tainted by that association in the minds of some.

That negative reaction is also written into the game, via Jack, and the two popular returning characters (Garrus and Tali).

So, that's why Miranda has the whole femme fatale persona and is played by Yvonne Strahovski. She had to be very attractive as well as polarizing. Implementation is just about perfect, really, give or take a little overkill here and there.

Modifié par flemm, 24 octobre 2011 - 09:39 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Given that it's we, the player, who make the decision, I think there should be a choice. I can't see Miranda submitting to Alliance oversight.

Hmm....one possible scenario is this: Miranda will want to take over and reform Cerberus. If you won't let her, Cerberus will be destroyed and she'll take over her father's business empire instead, which would allow her to continue to work for humanity's advancement within the limits of the law - or whatever law cannot be circumvented by a multistellar corporation - but without being subjected to Alliance oversight. The decision would make the difference between my scenarios "The Illusive Woman" and "The Foundation" (see OP).

That would put me in quite a sticky situation because I'm actually fonder of the Foundation scenario thematically, with the despised prodigal daughter returning in triumph.

Perhaps you'll get the option to let Shepard lead Cerberus or its successor organization. 

[The Elder King]

Barquiel wrote...

hhh89 wrote...


Exactly. Cerberus and the STG work in a similar way. (by the way, I find Mordin and Miranda similar in their personalities and in their methods). The problem is that, from ME, the STG is described as a "hero" organization, and Cerberus as a "villain" organization. In truth, they are (just like any other major organizations and government in ME) "grey" organizations.

The STG has some government oversight and isn't run by one person.

That doesn't mean that the organization in good, and we don't know how much the salarian government interferee with the STG work (considering that the STG works in a similar way of the Spectres, I don't know if it's an high control). And I was talking about their methods,which are similar. They used the krogans for their own goal, and elevated them while they weren't ready for that technology. And then they create the genophage, and they gave it to the turians. Finally, they modified the genophage. I'm not saying that those actions were right or wrong, but they are similar to what Cerberus does.

Plus, in my opinion there isn't a single organization in ME that is completely good or bad. The Council, Cerberus, the Alliance, the STG, the Spectres, the Flotilla, the Geth, the Turian Ietarchy, etc. Maybe the only bad organic organization is the Batarian Hegemony.

[naledgeborn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Perhaps you'll get the option to let Shepard lead Cerberus or its successor organization. 

This is what I'm hoping for.

[The Elder King]

Ieldra2 wrote...


Perhaps you'll get the option to let Shepard lead Cerberus or its successor organization. 

Mmm, it could be quite interesting from my Colonist-Ruthless Shepard.
I only hope that there are some different epilogues for Shepard if he survives the Reaper invasion.

[CuseGirl]

flemm wrote...
Well, I think that was the whole point, really. Miranda was a character who was always going to represent this organisation that returning players had been taught to revile in ME1. So, from the beginning, it was a given that she would be polarizing and tainted by that association in the minds of some.

That negative reaction is also written into the game, via Jack, and the two popular returning characters (Garrus and Tali).

So, that's why Miranda has the whole femme fatale persona and is played by Yvonne Strahovski. She had to be very attractive as well as polarizing. Implementation is just about perfect, really, give or take a little overkill here and there.

good.....i'm so used to playing video games with features that I liked in the previous iteration removed, it's sorta cruelly enjoyable to hear other people squirm about how they dont like an imaginary character :devil:

i really wish Miranda was sorta renegade Miranda ME-3. sorta like Garrus but with a team.....and hopefully with a non-catsuit outfit....

[Ieldra]

Two of my favorite pictures because they convey Shepard and Miranda working together seamlessly:





@CuseGirl:
Renegade-ish Miranda with her own team in ME3, that would be part of my dream scenario.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 octobre 2011 - 09:58 .

[CrutchCricket]

naledgeborn wrote...

^ Cerberus is considered a perversion because they "play with needles". But when the STG does it to the Krogan they catch less flak because they're aliens.

Cerberus is needed. Other races have it. Humanity should too.

Not the same thing. STG genophage was working for galactic stability, not salarian goals. Goal was to stabilize krogan population so they don't overrun other species. Also STG was cleaning up their mistake as it was they who technically "loosed the krogan" on the galaxy, giving them spaceflight. Finally krogan were acceptable targets after rebellions.
Also STG as government organization is a valid point. Because they're run by the Council they can't be salarian interest only. Asari commandos are similarly elite part of asari military, thus part of proper juristiction. Conclusion: no other race has an organization quite like Cerberus that we know about.

I think utterly destroying Cerberus in the public eye is the best course of action. From the ashes Shepard and Miranda can create a new organization to protect human interests and advancement. Who's going to know where the resources came from?

Also hiring a big name actor for a role guarantees nothing. Look at Keith David. Came back for the second game but Anderson has exactly one scene. Same with Lance Henriksen. Also Marina Sirtis is well known for Star Trek and Gargoyles yet Benezia dies in the first game (shame, she has a powerful voice).

[naledgeborn]

The only difference is between Cerberus and the STG is that it isn't officially a government sanctioned organization. However taking into account that a majority of Cerberus benefactors are indeed top brass Alliance Navy officers you can't overlook their respective ties.

Truth is without support from Alliance officials Cerberus wouldn't be as powerful or influential as it is in terms of subterfuge and espionage. They are the Alliance's scapegoat. Cerberus allows humanity to catch up to the other Council species where the diplomacy and bureaucracy of the Systems Alliance Parliament won't.

Edit: I forgot to add. If you have the Shadow Broker DLC check out Mordin's bibliography and tell me again that the STG is looking out "for galactic stability".

Edit 2: Saved you the trouble

Treatment Modalities Utilizing Redundant Nervous Systems
Dispersal Vectors in Compromised Ecosystems
Genetic Consequence: Resequencing Methods to Prevent Tissue Cloning
Cross-Species Contamination and Xeno-Plague Potential
Testing Modalities for Varren and Pyjaks
Disease and Population Stability
Indoctrination Progression and Mental Degredation (classified, STG)
Biological Vectors and Social Effect (classified, STG)
Second-Stage Viral Manipulation and Modification (classified, STG)
Threat Potential Analysis: Turian (classified, STG)
Threat Potential Analysis: Human (classified, STG)
Threat Potential Analysis: Asari (classified, STG)
Threat Potential Analysis: Batarian (classified, STG)

Modifié par naledgeborn, 24 octobre 2011 - 10:36 .

[The Elder King]

CrutchCricket wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

^ Cerberus is considered a perversion because they "play with needles". But when the STG does it to the Krogan they catch less flak because they're aliens.

Cerberus is needed. Other races have it. Humanity should too.

Not the same thing. STG genophage was working for galactic stability, not salarian goals. Goal was to stabilize krogan population so they don't overrun other species. Also STG was cleaning up their mistake as it was they who technically "loosed the krogan" on the galaxy, giving them spaceflight. Finally krogan were acceptable targets after rebellions.
Also STG as government organization is a valid point. Because they're run by the Council they can't be salarian interest only. Asari commandos are similarly elite part of asari military, thus part of proper juristiction. Conclusion: no other race has an organization quite like Cerberus that we know about.

The methods of the STG and Cerberus are similar, though. If the galaxy knew about the modified genophage, there would be heavy consequences for the salarian. They will do almost everything to achieve their goals, and Cerberus's goal is (at least till the end of ME2) humanity progression. I'm not a fan of Cerberus, but they were the only organization willingly to aid Shepard and stop the Collectors.

[CuseGirl]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@CuseGirl:
Renegade-ish Miranda with her own team in ME3, that would be part of my dream scenario.

this is sorta where I wish they would go (without the mother piece)

Modifié par CuseGirl, 24 octobre 2011 - 10:31 .