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[who would know]

Cool pic I found.

[Ieldra]

CuseGirl wrote...
yea....there are lot of fans who take their maturity way too seriously and are gonna be put off by a Ashley-Miranda/Soldier-Biotic show-down. I'm already about to churn up a save with Ash as my initial LI.......

Oh I'm sure there will be tension between Miranda and Ashley. They're diametrically opposed in several personality traits after all, and they have a history of being loyal to organizations with a vastly different style of doing things. There's certainly enough stuff for them to get into a fight about.

What I don't want is a fight over Shepard. We're not in a high school movie, damn it. Jealousy escalating into a fight would demean both of them greatly. I envision them to have enough self-respect to avoid it.

[Barquiel]

hhh89 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

About the difference between Cerberus, the STG and others that has been discussed on the previous pages, may I point to my thread The Spectres = The Council's Cerberus?, where I proposed that the difference lies mostly in presentation. Cerberus' "evil" is pushed into our faces at every turn while the Spectres' remains conveniently off-screen. There also seems to be a double standard at work suggesting that the deaths of a dozen people as collateral damage is perfectly fine while it's totally over the moral event horizon to use even one individual for experiments.

Ah...and picture time:
snip

I agree with you, Ieldra. And while the STG could have a form of government control, the Spectre are free to do whatever they want, unless they go against the Council, or if they do something enourmous, like the destruction of a relay (though from the tweet about the Spectre status, it could be that Shepard will be treated a bit differently).

From what we know so far, the corsairs are the human equivilent of the spectres...and not cerberus. The corsairs are supposed to work without restrictions, but they still answer to the alliance. Spectres answer to the council and an individual's status as a Spectre can be revoked in a case of a "gross misconduct". Cerberus operatives answer to a single unelected individual (with freaky eyes) who is accountable to no one.

IMO, an organization like Cerberus is not needed. Don't get me wrong: I am sure Miranda would use Cerberus' resources for the fight against the Reapers (like Liara uses the SB network for the fight against the reapers), but the basic problem remains. As long as Cerberus lacks oversight they will always be a liability.

Modifié par Barquiel, 25 octobre 2011 - 12:46 .

[flemm]

Barquiel wrote...
IMO, an organization like Cerberus is not needed. Don't get me wrong: I am sure Miranda would use Cerberus' resources for the fight against the Reapers (like Liara uses the SB network for the fight against the reapers), but the basic problem remains. As long as Cerberus lacks oversight they will always be a liability.

Well, one thing we might find out about Cerberus in ME3 is that the organisation has deeper ties to the Alliance than we originally thought. Wouldn't surprise me at all, that's a common development in pop sci-fi where this type of shadow organisation is concerned.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
What I don't want is a fight over Shepard. We're not in a high school movie, damn it. Jealousy escalating into a fight would demean both of them greatly. I envision them to have enough self-respect to avoid it.

Ashley's been shown to be plenty confrontational about stuff like this in ME1 if you get the confrontation scene. Miranda wouldn't start a fight but she wouldn't back down either. Unless you're talking about an actual physical fight- in which case no, that is amateurish for everyone involved. I'd expect some harsh language though or at least some cutting remarks.

Regarding the Spectres I would again say it's a matter of scope and legitimacy. I would never say they're always good or Cerberus is always bad. I never even use those notions.

Barquiel wrote...
IMO, an organization like Cerberus is not
needed. Don't get me wrong: I am sure Miranda would use Cerberus'
resources for the fight against the Reapers (like Liara uses the SB
network for the fight against the reapers), but the basic problem
remains. As long as Cerberus lacks oversight they will always be a
liability.

Careful. The "Cerberus answers to no one" line of reasoning was only meant to show that it is in fact different from the STG, asari commandos etc. You can't infer "Cerberus is not needed" from "Cerberus is outside any government jursidiction". Any interpretation of human advancement, however twisted (unless its straight up surrender to Reapers) will bring some benefit to humans. And Cerberus is not a liability because it's not under Alliance control but rather for what it does and what its goals are. If it were under Alliance command it would be even more of a liability because then the Alliance would be responsible for its trangressions.

To reiterate:
Cerberus is not like other organizations like the STG, asari commandos, Spectres etc because it is not under government control and focuses solely on human advancement, currently expressed (or possibly only perceived) as human dominance. By contrast, the other organizations do answer to some form of government and their goals are galactic stability (at least within Council space). There is some component of self advancement but it's not the main focus.
Cerberus provides a liability because of their actions towards the aforementioned goal and the backlash on humanity as a result. It also provides assets in terms of genuine advancement, particularly in science and military matters (it's political side isn't mentioned much)

Is it perfectly consistent? Not exactly. A lot of this does come from public perceptions which hardly flow logically.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:33 .

[naledgeborn]

Barquiel wrote...

From what we know so far, the corsairs are the human equivilent of the spectres...and not cerberus. The corsairs are supposed to work without restrictions, but they still answer to the alliance. Spectres answer to the council and an individual's status as a Spectre can be revoked in a case of a "gross misconduct". Cerberus operatives answer to a single unelected individual (with freaky eyes) who is accountable to no one.

IMO, an organization like Cerberus is not needed. Don't get me wrong: I am sure Miranda would use Cerberus' resources for the fight against the Reapers (like Liara uses the SB network for the fight against the reapers), but the basic problem remains. As long as Cerberus lacks oversight they will always be a liability.

Corsairs... really? Do you believe the nonsense you spew? "Indepenant starship captains" who continually get choked with red tape? The same ineffectual organization that made someone as stand up as Jacob Taylor turn his back on the Alliance?

Cerberus is very much needed. Do you support humanity's rivals like the Turians and Salarians being granted free reign to gather intelligence on humanity and it's interests while the SAP just sits down and takes it? So that the status quo can be kept and the facade of peace maintained?

Yeah, Cerberus is extreme, but in this Mass Effect universe which government agency isn't? As I said before the only difference is that one happens to not be sanctioned by the Council so that the status quo could be conveniently maintained. Why doesn't the Council sanction Cerberus? Because they're "evil"? It's because they don't want humanity to catch up and have to share their power over the rest of the galaxy. You should read Mass Effect: Revelation for a better understanding of the current political relationship between humanity and the Council. 

They aren't the beacon of light a lot of people make them out to be. They're morally grey at best. Same as Cerberus.

[CrutchCricket]

naledgeborn wrote...
[Cerberus is very much needed. Do you support humanity's rivals like the Turians and Salarians being granted free reign to gather intelligence on humanity and it's interests while the SAP just sits down and takes it? So that the status quo can be kept and the facade of peace maintained?

I don't know that turians and salarians are our "rivals". The Normandy SR1 was a cooperative effort between Alliance and the turian military. When was the last time rivals got together to build some ships? And no one's being given"free reign" to spy. But insofar as humans, turians, salarians, asari etc are distinct bodies of governed people there will be intelligence gathering from all sides, "just in case". If the Alliance is slacking in this department it's weak and should be fixed or replaced. Cerberus shouldn't be needed or relied on for this.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 25 octobre 2011 - 01:43 .

[naledgeborn]

They're rival superpowers. Allies, but rivals nonetheless. And yes Cerberus is the best human-centric network of operatives. Why spend the resources and man power to build (another?) organization from the ground up? That would be stupid and weak on the Alliance's part.

My hopes for ME3 is that Shepard can vindicate and "redeem" Cerberus to the public eye. That way Humanity keeps it's guard dog. Does Cerberus need to clean house? Yes. Does it need some oversight? Sure. Preferably from the Systems Alliance Navy and only key members of Parliament (no alien interference). Is it evil? Does it need to be destroyed? Should it stop doing what it's doing? Emphatically no, to all three.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
If the Alliance is slacking in this department it's weak and should be fixed or replaced. Cerberus shouldn't be needed or relied on for this.

Well, one thing we hear constantly about Cerberus is that it's made up of largely ex-Alliance personnel and that it has a command structure similar to Alliance, etc. So, in a sense, Cerberus may be to the Alliance what certain rogue Cerberus cells are to Cerberus itself: the organisation that is empowered to do the stuff that the Alliance doesn't want to do openly, and in a such a way that the primary human organisation has plausible deniability. Something like that.

Originally an authorized covert entity that eventually grew to be more or less autonomous. Like Section 31, relative to Starfleet and the Federation, for the Star Trek aficionados out there.

So, the way that might play out in the game is you initially have this pro- and anti-Cerberus conflict personified by Miranda and the VS, but at some point in the plot everybody realizes that... oups, it's more complicated than either side originally thought.

Ideally, I'd like to see Miranda's father be involved at that point, as part of the connection between the Alliance and Cerberus.

Modifié par flemm, 25 octobre 2011 - 02:30 .

[jtav]

Need a little help here. I have two missions outstanding: Zaaeed's LM and Arrival, before the IFF. Will I be allowed to do any two missions? Say, Legion's LM and Arrival, or will Legion's LM be triggered immediately after activating him, forcing me to do only his. Also, when's the last point I can save if I need to redo the Long Walk? I can't decide if I want to kill Garrus and Grunt or not.

[CrutchCricket]

naledgeborn wrote...

They're rival superpowers. Allies, but rivals nonetheless. And yes Cerberus is the best human-centric network of operatives. Why spend the resources and man power to build (another?) organization from the ground up? That would be stupid and weak on the Alliance's part.

You're kidding right? You do realize that whatever else Cerberus is, it's a privately funded organization right? As in mostly from the corporate sector? What you're suggesting is like the CIA going "gee we suck at this spying thing. So we're gonna take the rest of the day off. Take over Microsoft!"

It's a poor example because there is no organization like Cerberus in real life but the glaring suggestion that we just leave national security ("colonial security"?) in the private sector with no accountability is staggering. Tell me how that makes the Alliance even necessary anymore. It's already getting slammed in-game for not being able to protect its own colonies. If the Alliance wants to be strong, it shouldn't shut down Cerberus. It should make it obsolete (at least as far as military/political matters go)

The Alliance is weak if it relies on Cerberus for the basic functions that any other government in all of civilization, alien or otherwise can do on its own. Cerberus has reasources the Alliance needs to make this happen? They should just take them! If it can't even take care of itself it has no business representing
humanity in the galaxy and should be purged.  But dumping everything on
Cerberus is definitely not the answer.

I guess I'm just getting sick of hearing people defend one organization by pointing out the faults of the other.


*edit- flemm, just saw your post and if it turns out that Cerberus handles the blackest ops wetworks that Alliance brass wouldn't even admit to thinking about then I see your point and it should make for some interesting developments. What I was referring to was the basic "defense infrastructure" that any state should have to protect its own interests.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 25 octobre 2011 - 02:44 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
You do realize that whatever else Cerberus is, it's a privately funded organization right? As in mostly from the corporate sector?

I dunno. Miranda does say the organisation is privately funded, but she also says that nobody but TIM really knows all about it. So I don't think we can rule out that some of the funding comes from the Alliance itself, perhaps funneled through the corporate sector (Miranda's father, once a major contributor).

If so, then part of what might change is Cerberus would be brought back into the Alliance as its covert arm, in which case it would become, essentially, humanity's STG.

Modifié par flemm, 25 octobre 2011 - 02:44 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
If so, then part of what might change is Cerberus would be brought back into the Alliance as its covert arm, in which case it would become, essentially, humanity's STG.

Which would fix its current deficiency. I like this.

[jtav]

Given the Alliance's propensity for red tape (Corsairs), no thanks.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Given the Alliance's propensity for red tape (Corsairs), no thanks.

I don't think it's a big objection, really. Not liking Alliance "red tape" was always a pretty weak motivation for Jacob in any event. There's no reason why an official covert organisation could not be granted sufficient autonomy to accomplish its goals. Salarian STG seems to work pretty well. And the Spectres.

[CrutchCricket]

Yes well it wouldn't be exactly the same. And I'm not opposed to a restructuring/ recreation of the Alliance either.

[jtav]

Truthfully, as a fictional organization, I'm fine with Cerberus' current structure and oversight. I just want Miranda in charge.They're interesting precisely because they can shift from villain to hero depending on the situation. I'm fine with Miranda the Professional Dog Kicker.

[MisterJB]

Barquiel wrote...

From what we know so far, the corsairs are the human equivilent of the spectres...and not cerberus. The corsairs are supposed to work without restrictions, but they still answer to the alliance.

And we see just how useful they are. Clearly answering to the Alliance is the problem here.
The Alliance is a dreadnought. It makes other races think twice before attacking humanity, but it's frustratingly slow.

Cerberus operatives answer to a single unelected individual (with freaky eyes) who is accountable to no one.

Thus, the problem is The Illusive Man. He has to go.

CrutchCricket wrote...
I don't know that turians and salarians are our "rivals". The Normandy SR1 was a cooperative effort between Alliance and the turian military. When was the last time rivals got together to build some ships?

It allowed both races to see how the other works. That's all.

CrutchCricket wrote...
It's a poor example because there is no organization like Cerberus in real life but the glaring suggestion that we just leave national security ("colonial security"?) in the private sector with no accountability is staggering. Tell me how that makes the Alliance even necessary anymore. It's already getting slammed in-game for not being able to protect its own colonies. If the Alliance wants to be strong, it shouldn't shut down Cerberus. It should make it obsolete (at least as far as military/political matters go)

Regarding Cerberus being privately funded, it all comes down to trusting the leader of Cerberus to make the right decisions for humanity. With Miranda as the leader, we have nothing to fear.
Unlike the Alliance, Cerberus is not focused solely on colonial security. The Alliance can never make Cerberus obsolete because the Alliance can not conduct certain projects without risking humanity suffering political blowback.
For example, thanks to Project Trapdoor, humanity was the first race to acquire a way to disrupt biotics. The Alliance could never have done this.

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...
 The Alliance can never make Cerberus obsolete because the Alliance can not conduct certain projects without risking humanity suffering political blowback.
For example, thanks to Project Trapdoor, humanity was the first race to acquire a way to disrupt biotics. The Alliance could never have done this.

Gee I guess space humans just can't keep a secret....

Also, Bam! Retro-retort!

It should make it obsolete (at least as far as military/political matters go)

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 25 octobre 2011 - 03:34 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Need a little help here. I have two missions outstanding: Zaaeed's LM and Arrival, before the IFF. Will I be allowed to do any two missions? Say, Legion's LM and Arrival, or will Legion's LM be triggered immediately after activating him, forcing me to do only his. Also, when's the last point I can save if I need to redo the Long Walk? I can't decide if I want to kill Garrus and Grunt or not.

Your answers:

(1) As far as I have been able to find out, you're allowed to do any two missions. Legion's LM will not be triggered immediately after activating him if you have other missions open. Thus, you can do any two missions, but Legion's LM cannot be the first of them.

(2) The last point to save before the decisions about the Long Walk is right before activating the eightth valve. You must kill all enemies before you can save.

Edit:
At various points in the final boss sequence, autosaves will be created. If you switch out of the game and rename them to Save_nnn.pcsav before the next autosave is created, you'll be able to replay certain parts of the endgame without a lot of the hassle otherwise needed. These autosaves are generated:

*Directly after entering the platform that will bring you to the final boss
*At the start of the battle to make the human Reaper fall. Useful for replaying the CB decision/talk with TIM.
*At the start of the battle against the human Reaper after the CB decision has been made. Useful for replaying the platform rescue sequence
*At the start of the epilogue. Useful for replaying the after-CB dialogue with TIM.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 octobre 2011 - 03:42 .

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Gee I guess space humans just can't keep a secret....

It's risky. If humanity didn't have such a competent ambassador in Anita Goyle, there would have been serious consequences after humanity's work with AIs. And it's not like a drug that disrupts biotics is a secret easy to conceal, especially if we adapted it for military use.

And then, of course, we have to wonder if the Alliance would be willing to perform the necessary tests.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 octobre 2011 - 03:39 .

[Xilizhra]

For example, thanks to Project Trapdoor, humanity was the first race to acquire a way to disrupt biotics. The Alliance could never have done this.

And with those methods, should never have. Just one more reason as to why Cerberus is deserving of utter destruction.

[Barquiel]

MisterJB wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

Gee I guess space humans just can't keep a secret....

It's risky. If humanity didn't have such a competent ambassador in Anita Goyle, there would have been serious consequences after humanity's work with AIs. And it's not like a drug that disrupts biotics is a secret easy to conceal, especially if we adapted it for military use.

And then, of course, we have to wonder if the Alliance would be willing to perform the necessary tests.

I certainly don't condemn the alliance because they're unwilling to abducted/capture asari girls and experiment on them in order to create a chemical weapon.

Modifié par Barquiel, 25 octobre 2011 - 04:00 .

[Athayniel]

naledgeborn wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The STG has some government oversight and isn't run by one person.

Which only proves that the Council is indirectly responsible for the Krogan condition while publicly keeping their hands clean while throwing Rachni War celebrations.

Cerberus is no more evil than the STG or the Council, oversight or not. I do agree that TIM might be compromised by the time ME3 rolls around, but we know too little about that to make accurate guess work of where his allegiances lie. 

I know I'm a few pages late but I've seen a comparison between Cerberus and STG several times as if the organisations were directly equivalent and although I've seen folks bring up differences they're missing a crucial distinction between the two. The STG did not run experiments on live sentient subjects while producing the genophage, they restricted their testing to simulations and tissue samples until they were very sure of all the genophage's effects. Mordin was in fact very disapproving of Maelon's practices during his LM. Cerberus has no such compunctions against using live sentients or near-sentients in its experiments.

naledgeborn wrote...

Ah yes, naivete. Believe what you
want Crutch. "Good" or "Bad" the STG is nosing around in places where
they clearly don't belong. If they can freely "assess the threat
potential" of Council species then there's no reason that Cerberus
shouldn't function the way it does albeit it's questionable chain of
command.

Threat assesment is part of the STG's job. Do you honestly believe the US Armed Forces don't have plans to invade Canada? Or that the CIA does not have analysts working on assessing "friendlies" like France and the UK as well as "hostiles" like North Korea and Syria? Of course the STG has thick dossiers full of analysis and contingency plans on all the Council races as well as hostiles such as the Batarians. That's just good sense. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet. That's what covert intelligence is all about. Believing otherwise is extrememly naive.

Modifié par Athayniel, 25 octobre 2011 - 04:13 .

[Dave of Canada]

Barquiel wrote...

I certainly don't condemn the alliance because they're unwilling to abducted/capture asari girls and experimented on them in order to create a chemical weapon.

So you're unwilling to condemn a group for doing what's necessary? Interesting.