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[Barquiel]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I certainly don't condemn the alliance because they're unwilling to abducted/capture asari girls and experimented on them in order to create a chemical weapon.

So you're unwilling to condemn a group for doing what's necessary? Interesting.

It isn't necessary.

[Dave of Canada]

When Reaperified individuals are capable of unleashing biotic attacks and we could be fighting indoctrinated biotics, it very well could be.

[CrutchCricket]

*This post has been deleted for failure. It will redeem itself with a good picture of Miranda at some later time*

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 25 octobre 2011 - 04:36 .

[flemm]

Athayniel wrote...
Mordin was in fact very disapproving of Maelon's practices during his LM. Cerberus has no such compunctions against using live sentients or near-sentients in its experiments.

Well, Miranda thinks that Cerberus does, or that it should (dialogue about experimenting on the Rachni). These types of experiments seem to be the kind of thing TIM keeps on the fringes of the organisation and denies being responsable for when dealing with operatives who don't/wouldn't approve. So, this would need changing.

CrutchCricket wrote...
It's been a fascinating discussion on ME politics (and I hate politics) but let's not take away any admiration away from the lovely Ms Lawson.

It's a discussion thread, not just an "appreciation" type of thread. And Miranda is pretty closely tied to Cerberus. So I don't think it's a big derailment, really. What happens with Miranda in ME3 will probably depend a lot on what happens with Cerberus.

Modifié par flemm, 25 octobre 2011 - 04:17 .

[Athayniel]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I certainly don't condemn the alliance because they're unwilling to abducted/capture asari girls and experimented on them in order to create a chemical weapon.

So you're unwilling to condemn a group for doing what's necessary? Interesting.

Considering that in ME2 the only thing every merc needed to obstruct biotics was to use a shield I'm not sure Project TRAPDOOR is that necessary.

[MisterJB]

Athayniel wrote...
Considering that in ME2 the only thing every merc needed to obstruct biotics was to use a shield I'm not sure Project TRAPDOOR is that necessary.

A gameplay trait. Can't be taken into consideration. You just have to look at Samara to understand that asari are dangerous and humanity needs a way to defend itself. Also, the drug allows to control dangerous criminals like Jack who abuse their powers.
It's not like Cerberus has attacked Asari worlds using the drug. Well, yet. That can change in ME3.

[Skullheart]

Let's see what happens if we see indoctrinated asaris in ME3

Modifié par Skullheart, 25 octobre 2011 - 04:32 .

[Athayniel]

MisterJB wrote...

Athayniel wrote...
Considering that in ME2 the only thing every merc needed to obstruct biotics was to use a shield I'm not sure Project TRAPDOOR is that necessary.

A gameplay trait. Can't be taken into consideration. You just have to look at Samara to understand that asari are dangerous and humanity needs a way to defend itself. Also, the drug allows to control dangerous criminals like Jack who abuse their powers.
It's not like Cerberus has attacked Asari worlds using the drug. Well, yet. That can change in ME3.

I won't get into an argument about the politics of the situation but it can be argued that kidnapping asari is an attack on asari worlds. It's certainly illegal and I bet the asari considers Cerberus to be something the Alliance needs to deal with sooner rather than later.

You also can't divorce gameplay mechanics from the physics of the world with a handwave, that's a slippery slope. Though I've heard shields in ME3 will have less of an effect on biotics than they currently do.

[MisterJB]

Athayniel wrote...
 I bet the asari considers Cerberus to be something the Alliance needs to deal with sooner rather than later.

Oh, I'm sure they do.
I also wish the asari would vacate Thessia and let humans colonize it but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 octobre 2011 - 04:41 .

[LOLZAO]

Also do you think this is wrong??
2181 - Matriarch Tilia Eraza targeted with omega-enkaphalin. Claims of biotic superiority to non-biotics deflated once her powers fail. Voice in citizen legislature considerably diminished.

Do you think that she should be allowed to make such claims?do you think biotics are better than other just cause they are biotics?

And if you are wondering who the H*** is this guy, i am just a lurker been around here since page 600,i love the character but i never came up with something interesting to write.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Athayniel wrote...
 I bet the asari considers Cerberus to be something the Alliance needs to deal with sooner rather than later.

Oh, I'm sure they do.
I also wish the asari would vacate Thessia and let humans colonize it but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Well, Shepard is Alliance and will be dealing with Cerberus sooner, so it looks like they'll get their wish.

Do you think that she should be allowed to make such claims?do you think biotics are better than other just cause they are biotics?

Irrelevant. The means to create it were monstrous, and the end was directed at someone likely too fringe to make an appreciable difference, given that the asari are only a third of the Council.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 octobre 2011 - 04:49 .

[naledgeborn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, Shepard is Alliance and will be dealing with Cerberus sooner, so it looks like they'll get their wish.

Or not.

Also I find it intriguing despite it being a fictional universe how quickly people are willing to sell out their own for sapphic blue babes. Just an observation.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 25 octobre 2011 - 04:54 .

[flemm]

LOLZAO wrote...
And if you are wondering who the H*** is this guy, i am just a lurker been around here since page 600,i love the character but i never came up with something interesting to write.

I, too, was once a lurker... It has its advantages

Anyway, nice to see you drop in.

[LOLZAO]

Xilizhra wrote...

Do you think that she should be allowed to make such claims?do you think biotics are better than other just cause they are biotics?

Irrelevant. The means to create it were monstrous, and the end was directed at someone likely too fringe to make an appreciable difference, given that the asari are only a third of the Council.

Then how do you propose such a drug should be developed?

[MisterJB]

LOLZAO wrote...

Also do you think this is wrong??
2181 - Matriarch Tilia Eraza targeted with omega-enkaphalin. Claims of biotic superiority to non-biotics deflated once her powers fail. Voice in citizen legislature considerably diminished.

Do you think that she should be allowed to make such claims?do you think biotics are better than other just cause they are biotics?

A very nice example of harmony from the asari. Good post.

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, Shepard is Alliance and will be dealing with Cerberus sooner, so it looks like they'll get their wish.

Shepard is alliance? The same Alliance that discredited everything he said and placed him on trial? 
It has been confirmed that  you can roleplay against the Alliance and I seriously doubt that reforming Cerberus along with an human centric ending won't be possibilities in ME3. 

Irrelevant. The means to create it were monstrous,

 Relevant. What Eraza was trying to do was more monstruous. All Asari are biotics so, what she was trying to say was that the asari are better than all other races.

and the end was directed at someone likely too fringe to make an appreciable difference, given that the asari are only a third of the Council.

The Asari are the most advanced and influential race in the Galaxy. If their culture was similar to the Turian, they would have enslaved all the other races by now.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 octobre 2011 - 05:00 .

[Xilizhra]

Also I find it intriguing despite it being a fictional universe how quickly people are willing to sell out their own for sapphic blue babes. Just an observation.

I don't consider murderous supremacists "my own."

Then how do you propose such a drug should be developed?

However drugs like that are developed nowadays without use of torture; I'm not sure of the exact procedures.

Shepard is alliance? The same Alliance that discredited everything he said and placed him on trial?
It has been confirmed that you can roleplay against the Alliance and I seriously doubt that reforming Cerberus along with an human centric ending won't be possibilities in ME3.

Perhaps it will. I don't entirely care about that, though there are certain total jerks around this forum whose rage I would be pleased to see if it wasn't an option, so long as I can obliterate it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 25 octobre 2011 - 05:02 .

[CrutchCricket]

naledgeborn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, Shepard is Alliance and will be dealing with Cerberus sooner, so it looks like they'll get their wish.

Or not.

Also I find it intriguing despite it being a fictional universe how quickly people are willing to sell out their own for sapphic blue babes. Just an observation.

Sell out? You do realize:
a) it's not us vs them- we're not at war with the asari there are no "sides" to be chosen here... unless someone is intent on drawing them
Xilizhra is simply making an absolute moral claim that ends don't justify the means
c) that asari like nearly every other alien race are standins for identifiable groups of humans.
d) that anyone that has such a different and conflicting view on an issue of great importance (assuming this is one) is not "their own"

Just clarifying. I withhold judgement on this issue.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 25 octobre 2011 - 05:07 .

[Xilizhra]

Xilizhra is simply making an absolute moral claim that ends don't justify the means

Actually, not quite. What I'm saying is that these particular ends don't justify these particular means.

[LOLZAO]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then how do you propose such a drug should be developed?

However drugs like that are developed nowadays without use of torture; I'm not sure of the exact procedures.

But they had to test it on Asari(a all biotic race) and i doubt there would be many willing asari to test it, or that their government would allow it.So i think that it was the only "sensible" course of action to be taken by Cerberus.

[Xilizhra]

LOLZAO wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then how do you propose such a drug should be developed?

However drugs like that are developed nowadays without use of torture; I'm not sure of the exact procedures.

But they had to test it on Asari(a all biotic race) and i doubt there would be many willing asari to test it, or that their government would allow it.So i think that it was the only "sensible" course of action to be taken by Cerberus.

There are still human biotics who might volunteer.

[LOLZAO]

Xilizhra wrote...
There are still human biotics who might volunteer.

But that would only prove that the drug is effective on Humans.Anyway i am out ,goodbye to you all nice discussion we were having here keep it up people,and continue supporting Miranda.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
There are still human biotics who might volunteer.

Who knows how much difference there is between artificial and natural biotics? Using humans could have taken too long or simply be nowhere near as effective.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

LOLZAO wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then how do you propose such a drug should be developed?

However drugs like that are developed nowadays without use of torture; I'm not sure of the exact procedures.

But they had to test it on Asari(a all biotic race) and i doubt there would be many willing asari to test it, or that their government would allow it.So i think that it was the only "sensible" course of action to be taken by Cerberus.

There are still human biotics who might volunteer.

There are asari biotics who might volunteer.  Or failing that... 

Just as the Devil's Advocate, I think it would be right up Cerberus' alley to conduct their experiments on asari prisoners captured from one of the many pirate factions that employs asari.  It's not like it's too far out of their way.  And, once the experiement was finished, they could simply dispose of their test subjects via the nearest airlock.

Hell, provided the details stayed hidden, Cerberus might even get a "thank you for getting rid of those pirate scum" from the local government.

Modifié par General User, 25 octobre 2011 - 05:55 .

[MisterJB]

General User wrote...
There are asari biotics who might volunteer. 

Asari who might volunteer to suffer experiments that migth leave them mentally scarred so a rival race can learn the weakness of the species?
 

I think it would be right up Cerberus' alley to conduct their experiments on asari prisoners captured from one of the many pirate factions that employs asari.  It's not like it's too far out of their way.  And, once the experiement was finished, they could simply dispose of their test subjects via the nearest airlock.

This would have been the ideal solution but the same thing can be said of Akuze. Why set the Tresher Maws on Alliance soldiers instead of human pirates?
Small details like this make all the difference. I hope replacing TIM will be enough to reform Cerberus.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Athayniel wrote...
Mordin was in fact very disapproving of Maelon's practices during his LM. Cerberus has no such compunctions against using live sentients or near-sentients in its experiments.

Well, Miranda thinks that Cerberus does, or that it should (dialogue about experimenting on the Rachni). These types of experiments seem to be the kind of thing TIM keeps on the fringes of the organisation and denies being responsable for when dealing with operatives who don't/wouldn't approve. So, this would need changing.

I think this is also a presentation failure on Bioware's part. No serious scientist would so blithely conduct first-stage testing of possibly lethal substances on sapient beings like they did on Pragia. When that happened in history, almosts always the degradation and risk of death was very much the point as much as - or even more as - possible results. For instance, omega-enkephaline would have been tested on non-sapient Thessian lifeforms before proceeding to asari. Anything would be wasteful. I guess that's the way the STG does things. 

And while we're at it, "humans as a control group", that's scientific bullsh*t. A control group is something as similar as possible to the target group, except for the one trait that you're testing for. Species from different worlds should be about the last thing you use as a control group.

Yep, Bioware + biology = epic fail, as usual. 

For the goals, well, if the salarians develop bioweapons against other species - btw, who says they haven't got something in store for humans, make them more docile, for instance - why shouldn't humanity? If biotics are a war resource, it's perfectly fine to development something to neutralize that advantage, just in case, though personally I'd prefer a long-term plan to make humans genetic biotics. 

Anyway, Miranda would certainly do some things a little differently than TIM does, but to think she wouldn't do what she considers necessary is a delusion.

It's a discussion thread, not just an "appreciation" type of thread. And Miranda is pretty closely tied to Cerberus. So I don't think it's a big derailment, really. What happens with Miranda in ME3 will probably depend a lot on what happens with Cerberus.

If the discussion remains on the topic of Cerberus' ethics and their necessity for a few pages, and the usual suspects (Xil, Barquiel, Dave, Saphra) have entered the debate, that's usually a sign of derailment. I don't mind up to a point, but I'm getting rather sick of every second thread I read turning into the same debate.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 octobre 2011 - 06:05 .