82210 réponses à ce sujet

[paul165]

>>There are still human biotics who might volunteer. <<

Cerberus doesn't need a drug that works on humans it needs a drug that works on Asari and the drug will not necessarily work on both species.

I would argue that Mordin's loyalty mission provides one of the best arguments for the existence of Cerberus - hell Shepard even says so him/her self! Why does Maelon use humans -because varren have a nasty bite and if rationales like that don't suggest Cerberus is necessary in some form nothing will.

Would I prefer that Cerberus has some kind of oversight? Absolutely preventing disasters like Teltin and Overlord is important. Is Cerberus necessary? Again absolutely - humanity is young and very, very alone in the dark surrounded by 'allies' that will betray or abandon them at a moment's notice and enemies that seek the extermination or enslavement of the species.

It is not certain that any asari were harmed during project Trapdoor having just reread the SB dossier on it- unfortunately even if some asari slaves had been killed I would stilll be forced to judge that as any acceptable - although regretable cost for preventing the most powerful race in the galaxy from becoming racist.

To drag it back on topic this suggests that Miranda would be ideal for running Cerberus given her displayed attitudes - as jtav said Miranda is perfectly willing to shoot a few dogs for a good cause but and this is very important unlike TIM she shows no signs of being a fan in any way of commiting evil for the sake of it.

Of course personally I favour a different path that post war Shepard, Liara and Miranda use the prestige, power and ridiculous amount of resources acquired as the SB, head of Cerberus and 'saviour of the galaxy' to set up an organisation to unify covert groups like the STG and the Spectres and develop it into a shadow government - after all they will need a long term project to keep them occupied after the Reapers.

[Xilizhra]

When that happened in history, almosts always the degradation and risk of death was very much the point as much as - or even more as - possible results.

Perhaps that was a secondary point on Pragia, as some means of testing ways to cause pain and death to biotics, with TRAPDOOR using some of what was discovered in Teltin.

[naledgeborn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think this is also a presentation failure on Bioware's part. No serious scientist would so blithely conduct first-stage testing of possibly lethal substances on sapient beings like they did on Pragia. When that happened in history, almosts always the degradation and risk of death was very much the point as much as - or even more as - possible results. For instance, omega-enkephaline would have been tested on non-sapient Thessian lifeforms before proceeding to asari. Anything would be wasteful. I guess that's the way the STG does things. 

And while we're at it, "humans as a control group", that's scientific bullsh*t. A control group is something as similar as possible to the target group, except for the one trait that you're testing for. Species from different worlds should be about the last thing you use as a control group.

Yep, Bioware + biology = epic fail, as usual. 

For the goals, well, if the salarians develop bioweapons against other species - btw, who says they haven't got something in store for humans, make them more docile, for instance - why shouldn't humanity? If biotics are a war resource, it's perfectly fine to development something to neutralize that advantage, just in case, though personally I'd prefer a long-term plan to make humans genetic biotics. 

Anyway, Miranda would certainly do some things a little differently than TIM does, but to think she wouldn't do what she considers necessary is a delusion.

Hell yes.

MisterJB wrote...

I think it would be right up Cerberus' alley to conduct their experiments on asari prisoners captured from one of the many pirate factions that employs asari.  It's not like it's too far out of their way.  And, once the experiement was finished, they could simply dispose of their test subjects via the nearest airlock.

This would have been the ideal solution but the same thing can be said of Akuze. Why set the Tresher Maws on Alliance soldiers instead of human pirates? 
Small details like this make all the difference. I hope replacing TIM will be enough to reform Cerberus.

Yes.

Ieldra2 wrote...

If the discussion remains on the topic of Cerberus' ethics and their necessity for a few pages, and the usual suspects (Xil, Barquiel, Dave, Saphra) have entered the debate, that's usually a sign of derailment. I don't mind up to a point, but I'm getting rather sick of every second thread I read turning into the same debate. 

+1

[General User]

MisterJB wrote...
Asari who might volunteer to suffer experiments that migth leave them mentally scarred so a rival race can learn the weakness of the species?

 I think so.  Let me pitch a scenario at you:  ahem...

Some time in 2168-2169 Cerberus is the middle of conducting any one of a thousand and one different operations that might bring them into conflict with a Terminus pirate gang.  During the course of this operation several prisoners are taken including a few asari.  While most of the prisoners are simply shot, the asari are given a choice: consent to be experimented on for project TRAPDOOR and maybe suffer permanent harm, or be shot with your fellows.

Now while this is almost surely using force to compel participation in a medical experiment, on the other hand, the asari captives might very well deserve to die for their crimes.  Because of the nature of both the choice and who it's offered to, I think this scenario  moves project TRAPDOOR out 'evil' territory and into 'ethically grey', perfect for Cerberus.

MisterJB wrote...
This would have been the ideal solution but the same thing can be said of Akuze. Why set the Tresher Maws on Alliance soldiers instead of human pirates?
Small details like this make all the difference. I hope replacing TIM will be enough to reform Cerberus.

Akuze is a different situation, it really rests on exactly how much Cerberus knew about the thresher maws at the time.  After all, if all they really knew was that something was causing a disturbance on a distant world, then sending in a platoon of Marines to recon the area sounds like a sensible course of action to me.

Modifié par General User, 25 octobre 2011 - 06:26 .

[CrutchCricket]

paul165 wrote...
I would argue that Mordin's loyalty mission provides one of the best arguments for the existence of Cerberus - hell Shepard even says so him/her self! Why does Maelon use humans -because varren have a nasty bite and if rationales like that don't suggest Cerberus is necessary in some form nothing will.

...

Of course personally I favour a different path that post war Shepard, Liara and Miranda use the prestige, power and ridiculous amount of resources acquired as the SB, head of Cerberus and 'saviour of the galaxy' to set up an organisation to unify covert groups like the STG and the Spectres and develop it into a shadow government - after all they will need a long term project to keep them occupied after the Reapers.

Cerberus is necessary because defenseless subjects are more convenient to experiment on? Help me here.

Mad props on that last ending, you and I are in almost perfect agreement. Only two things I'd do differently- leave the STG and Spectres in the dark, they're too out in the open and bringing in too many different viewpoints can lead to a collapse and two, make Shepard and the Normandy into a symbol of galactic strength and unity, functioning as a vigilante and answering to no one. Shepard would be the only visible part of a much greater machine that runs behind the scenes undreamed of by anyone and subtly keeps everything in balace. The Shepard symbol will outlast the man himself and continue in the form of AI controlled power armor or a new successor.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 25 octobre 2011 - 06:29 .

[MisterJB]

General User wrote...
 I think so.  Let me pitch a scenario at you:  ahem...

Some time in 2168-2169 Cerberus is the middle of conducting any one of a thousand and one different operations that might bring them into conflict with a Terminus pirate gang.  During the course of this operation several prisoners are taken including a few asari.  While most of the prisoners are simply shot, the asari are given a choice: consent to be experimented on for project TRAPDOOR and maybe suffer permanent harm, or be shot with your fellows.

Now while this is almost surely using force to compel participation in a medical experiment, on the other hand, the asari captives might very well deserve to die for their crimes.  Because of the nature of both the choice and who it's offered to, I think this scenario  moves project TRAPDOOR out 'evil' territory and into 'ethically grey', perfect for Cerberus.

Well, that can hardly be caleld volunteering. And what's the point of giving those asari a choice in the first place? They are already under their power, no one knows or cares where they are and, even if they survive the experiments, they can't let them go.
Not that I'm against performing such important experiments on captive criminals, just to be clear.

Akuze is a different situation, it really rests on exactly how much Cerberus knew about the thresher maws at the time.  After all, if all they really knew was that something was causing a disturbance on a distant world, then sending in a platoon of Marines to recon the area sounds like a sensible course of action to me.

Edolus then, where the transmitter was purposely placed over a nest.

[General User]

Out of courtesy to Ieldra, I'ma respond in PM.

Cheers!

Modifié par General User, 25 octobre 2011 - 07:10 .

[Dr. Doctor]

 It might be that I'm a large comic book nerd but whenever I think of Miranda leading her own organization I can only picture a organization like SHIELD with Miranda as it's Nick Fury, eyepatch and all.

[naledgeborn]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

 It might be that I'm a large comic book nerd but whenever I think of Miranda leading her own organization I can only picture a organization like SHIELD with Miranda as it's Nick Fury, eyepatch and all.

Someone should make a manip. Also hell of a lot sexier than the Samuel L Jackson version if I might say so myself

Modifié par naledgeborn, 25 octobre 2011 - 06:55 .

[MisterJB]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

 It might be that I'm a large comic book nerd but whenever I think of Miranda leading her own organization I can only picture a organization like SHIELD with Miranda as it's Nick Fury, eyepatch and all.

I approve. Nick Fury is awesome.

[Ieldra]

Miranda with eyepatch and cigarette? Ugh, definitely not my style. Wouldn't mind that tatoo, but only if it's removable.

[CrutchCricket]

lol the combination of hair, general face shape, eyepatch and cigarette remind me of Snake Plissken from Escape from New York/LA.
Badassery still present though

[naledgeborn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Miranda with eyepatch and cigarette? Ugh, definitely not my style. Wouldn't mind that tatoo, but only if it's removable.

I admit, I was going for the lulz when I said someone should make a manip. 

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think this is also a presentation failure on Bioware's part. No serious scientist would so blithely conduct first-stage testing of possibly lethal substances on sapient beings like they did on Pragia.

So, just to be sure I understand correctly, you don't think Cerberus should have been portrayed as doing those things in the first place?

Perhaps so, but in any event, that is how the organisation has been portrayed, so it is something that would need reforming in any future Miranda-controlled version of it.

MisterJB wrote...

I approve. Nick Fury is awesome.

Lose the cigarette imo. Eyepatch is cool, though

Modifié par flemm, 25 octobre 2011 - 07:40 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think this is also a presentation failure on Bioware's part. No serious scientist would so blithely conduct first-stage testing of possibly lethal substances on sapient beings like they did on Pragia.

So, just to be sure I understand correctly, you don't think Cerberus should have been portrayed as doing those things in the first place?

Perhaps so, but in any event, that is how the organisation has been portrayed, so it is something that would need reforming in any future Miranda-controlled version of it.

The problem with this presentation is that it portrays Cerberus as not particularly smart. This sledgehammering home of "Cerberus' methods are evil" comes at the cost of believability. It's one more of those "style over substance" things I find so annoying.

Akuze? Completely unnecessary to get the results they wanted, and Toombs' report tells me it's just one more of those things where the degradation is more important than the result. Overlord? Well, that may appear a little more plausible, but the presentation is so over-the-top that it made me groan when I first saw that contraption David was in. Pragia? Even if the cell *was* rogue, the way they went about it - biotic children are rare and wouldn't be blithely consumed even if the "scientists" didn't particularly care about their wellbeing. The thing is: as a rule it's not just a question of ethics how you treat your test subjects, but also a matter of expediency in several ways. By not caring one whit, Cerberus comes across not just as ruthless but also as stupid and incompetent. That I mind a great deal.

I don't mind Miranda being loyal to a ruthless organization. Her being loyal to a stupid and incompetent organization is much harder to stomach. I headcanon my way around it, since I don't think it has been intended that way, but it's annoying nonetheless.

[CuseGirl]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I don't mind Miranda being loyal to a ruthless organization. Her being loyal to a stupid and incompetent organization is much harder to stomach. I headcanon my way around it, since I don't think it has been intended that way, but it's annoying nonetheless.

headcanon lolll....I think most gamers dont even think about it....it's present in real life tho. There are alot of smart republicans out there with good ideas but look at the people leading the charge of the GOP (if ur not American, then disregard this whole statement). It wouldn't be the first time a character with real value is surrounded or associates themselves with a seemingly ridiculous organization.

[Dr. Doctor]

Being introduced formally to Cerberus in ME2 really interested me at first, finally an organization that was morally ambiguous without being completely evil. But Overlord, the LOTSB dossier, and the bases in ME1 make them out to be a blend of Aperture Science and SPECTRE from the James Bond movies.

If there was one good thing about DA2 it was the fact that there was a more political take to the storyline, in the final battle you find out that both sides in the conflict aren't the good guys they both have their pros and cons. But apparently we can't sympathize with the "villans" of the story in ME, and so we get the image of Cerberus as incompetent.

I wonder if somewhere along the line the writers looked up and thought "I wonder if it will be hard for the player to relate to a race of Always Chaotic Evil killing machines from beyond the galaxy? I know! We can just trot out Cerberus as our more "human" villains! That should work!"

[CuseGirl]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
If there was one good thing about DA2 it was the fact that there was a more political take to the storyline, in the final battle you find out that both sides in the conflict aren't the good guys they both have their pros and cons. But apparently we can't sympathize with the "villans" of the story in ME, and so we get the image of Cerberus as incompetent.

I wonder if somewhere along the line the writers looked up and thought "I wonder if it will be hard for the player to relate to a race of Always Chaotic Evil killing machines from beyond the galaxy? I know! We can just trot out Cerberus as our more "human" villains! That should work!"

maybe they're re-hashing the Saren story, with TiM being slowly indoctrinated and he'll pass it off as his ploy to lure the Mother Reaper in and maybe TiM will be the first person Shepard saves from that awful plight. I'm sorta waiting for Shepard's name to have true meaning.

As for Miranda being an integral part of Cerberus, wut are you supposed to do when your a near superhuman with no allies? Join the best funded merc group who supports your species. 

Holy moley, can we get a single screen cap of Miranda in ME-3......

[paul165]

I think one of the problems with how Cerberus is portrayed in the games is that Shepard only ever sees the failures of the organisation - for every lab Shepard and co burn to the ground there is a dozen flawlessly executed operations; which of course we never see because they don't require Shepard's particular skill set.

If Cerberus was a blatant as they are portrayed in ME2 someone like Miranda as a high up in the organisation would be instantly recognised by law enforcement - at least on the Citadel and given the Council's somewhat dubious due process regs probably shot. That siad I do feel TIM has exceeded his sell by date - he has grown too jaded to judge when an evil is necessary and when it is merely expedient (or frankly sometimes entertaining). Time for the next generation to take over!

[CuseGirl]

yea, if we're lucky, we'll have a mission right before the final Shep vs Harbinger. It'll be like Shepard, Miranda and another squaddie chasing TiM to his hometown or something ridiculous like that. And you're given the option to save TiM or let Miranda blow his head off.....I kno wut I'm choosing....

[Xilizhra]

Time for the next generation to take over!

And burn it to the ground.

Holy moley, can we get a single screen cap of Miranda in ME-3......

It'd be nice, yes.

[CrutchCricket]

Xilizhra wrote...

Time for the next generation to take over!

And burn it to the ground.

Hmm.. you do seem rather militantly adamant about this (which is why I misinterpreted your claims earlier as absolute). Why is that? If it's a long story or going to start some ****, feel free to PM me.

[naledgeborn]

No she's just crazy. She's the same with "mage freedom" doesn't understand the meaning of logic or moderation.

[Dr. Doctor]

CuseGirl wrote...

yea, if we're lucky, we'll have a mission right before the final Shep vs Harbinger. It'll be like Shepard, Miranda and another squaddie chasing TiM to his hometown or something ridiculous like that. And you're given the option to save TiM or let Miranda blow his head off.....I kno wut I'm choosing....

When I first go through ME3 it will be with my Mr. T look-alike Shepard, this will allow me To tell that stupid loudmouth Harbinger something that I've been wanting to say since we were introduced to him.