82210 réponses à ce sujet

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem with this presentation is that it portrays Cerberus as not particularly smart. This sledgehammering home of "Cerberus' methods are evil" comes at the cost of believability. It's one more of those "style over substance" things I find so annoying.

[...]

I don't mind Miranda being loyal to a ruthless organization. Her being loyal to a stupid and incompetent organization is much harder to stomach.

On the bright side, you probably won't need to stomach it for long, since I doubt she'll still be loyal to it in ME3, or at least not to TIM's version of it.

That said, I do think Miranda's loyalty is presented in a credible manner because, when you combine the way Cerberus operates in cells with Miranda's background, it makes sense that she would be able to idealize and rationalize the organisation's activities enough to render them compatible with her own worldview.

This situation cannot last, though, which is why, to me, the resignation is so important, and such a positive thing. At a certain point, she needs to either leave the organisation permanently or remake it so that it truly corresponds to her own vision of what it should be (including, presumably, making it less stupid). Those are the paths of growth for the character. I think that's where we're headed (one or another).

I basically agree that Cerberus is effectively more interesting as a shade of grey than as "pure evil," and, to be fair, it was portrayed that way for parts of ME2. We'll see how it unfolds in ME3, but I'd like some of that grey to remain, as well as the potential to reform the organisation as part of Miranda's character arc.

Modifié par flemm, 25 octobre 2011 - 10:05 .

[Xilizhra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Time for the next generation to take over!

And burn it to the ground.

Hmm.. you do seem rather militantly adamant about this (which is why I misinterpreted your claims earlier as absolute). Why is that? If it's a long story or going to start some ****, feel free to PM me.

Egalitarianism is a cornerstone of most of my life philosophies. A group dedicated to the dominance of a single species/nation/whatever is something I have limited patience for to begin with. Add in their various atrocities, and it's a perfect storm of hatred.

[naledgeborn]

Egalitarianism is only "practical" when applied to numbers.

[Xilizhra]

What?

[Athayniel]

paul165 wrote...

It is not certain that any asari were harmed during project Trapdoor having just reread the SB dossier on it- unfortunately even if some asari slaves had been killed I would stilll be forced to judge that as any acceptable - although regretable cost for preventing the most powerful race in the galaxy from becoming racist.

Preventing the most powerful race in the galaxy from becoming racist...

A race that has been coexisting peacefully on the galactic stage for nearly three millennia. Who have been instrumental in bringing other races such as the salarians, elcor and volus to the center of the galactic community. Who are considered to be a race of consumate diplomats. A race that considers it culturally de rigeur to bond and mate with members of other species.

But they might "become racist". That's ridiculous. If they did it would be saying more about humanity than the asari.

If Miranda does take over Cerberus in ME3, and that's still a big "if" in my book even though I could see the benefits of it, she would need to rebuild it from the ground up to rid it of the endemic xenophobia and anthropocentrism. We already know she doesn't approve of these things, but just changing the boss isn't going to be enough to change the organisation itself.

[Dave of Canada]

Apologies, Ieldra. Trying to keep out as much as I can, which is why I haven't involved myself too deep.

Athayniel wrote...

But they might "become racist". That's ridiculous.

2181 - Matriarch Tilia Eraza targeted with omega-enkaphalin. Claims of biotic superiority to non-biotics deflated once her powers fail. Voice in citizen legislature considerably diminished.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 octobre 2011 - 11:00 .

[CrutchCricket]

Xilizhra wrote...
Egalitarianism is a cornerstone of most of
my life philosophies. A group dedicated to the dominance of a single
species/nation/whatever is something I have limited patience for to
begin with. Add in their various atrocities, and it's a perfect storm of
hatred.

Fair enough but you seem to be coming down quite heavy-handed on both the good that it does do and on more moderate reformations that advocate advancement and protection as opposed to dominance. Surely you can see some benefits that can be extracted and repackaged appropriately?

Dave of Canada wrote...

Apologies, Ieldra. Trying to keep out as much as I can, which is why I haven't involved myself too deep.

Athayniel wrote...

But they might "become racist". That's ridiculous.

2181 - Matriarch Tilia Eraza targeted with omega-enkaphalin. Claims of biotic superiority to non-biotics deflated once her powers fail. Voice in citizen legislature considerably diminished.

I sincerely hope you're not trying to use one extreme individual to disprove the otherwise valid examples of an entire race and one that claims biotic superiority, and not asari superiority to boot.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 25 octobre 2011 - 11:24 .

[naledgeborn]

CrutchCricket wrote...

I sincerely hope you're not trying to use one extreme individual to disprove the otherwise valid examples of an entire race and one that claims biotic superiority, and not asari superiority to boot.

Which, you know, happens to be particularly convenient for the Asari race since, oh I don't know, just maybe only 100% of their species are "natural" biotics. Just saying.

[MisterJB]

Athayniel wrote...

A race that has been coexisting peacefully on the galactic stage for nearly three millennia. Who have been instrumental in bringing other races such as the salarians, elcor and volus to the center of the galactic community. Who are considered to be a race of consumate diplomats. A race that considers it culturally de rigeur to bond and mate with members of other species.

That's actually their greatest weapon. They don't need to fight wars, they can subtly infiltrate and influentiate the cultures of other species and even outlive them.
Also, the asari bringing the volus to the center of the galactc community? Those poor guys are a client race to the turians.

If Miranda does take over Cerberus in ME3, and that's still a big "if" in my book even though I could see the benefits of it, she would need to rebuild it from the ground up to rid it of the endemic xenophobia and anthropocentrism. We already know she doesn't approve of these things, but just changing the boss isn't going to be enough to change the organisation itself.

Miranda is not a xenophobe but if Cerberus stops putting humans first, there's not much point in having it around.

CrutchCricket wrote...
I sincerely hope you're not trying to use one extreme individual to disprove the otherwise valid examples of an entire race and one that claims biotic superiority, and not asari superiority to boot.

The asari are the only 100% natural biotic race in the whole galaxy. Biotic superiority IS asari superiority.

[Xilizhra]

Fair enough but you seem to be coming down quite heavy-handed on both the good that it does do and on more moderate reformations that advocate advancement and protection as opposed to dominance. Surely you can see some benefits that can be extracted and repackaged appropriately?

I have no faith whatsoever in a clandestine species-focused organization with no accountability staying true to its original purpose. If they want to help humanity, they can sign up with the Alliance.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
I have no faith whatsoever in a clandestine species-focused organization with no accountability staying true to its original purpose. If they want to help humanity, they can sign up with the Alliance.

As soon as the Council abolishes the Spectres and STG. They can keep the Council Fleet.
We'll even throw the Corsairs in, they're useless anyway.

[jtav]

It's discussions like these that really make me want Miranda to kick puppies and to engineer the extinction of the asari.

Wasn't an article supposed to come out today?

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I have no faith whatsoever in a clandestine species-focused organization with no accountability staying true to its original purpose. If they want to help humanity, they can sign up with the Alliance.

As soon as the Council abolishes the Spectres and STG. They can keep the Council Fleet.
We'll even throw the Corsairs in, they're useless anyway.

The STG is accountable. I'd say the Spectres are too, but you wouldn't believe me.
If you want a human STG equivalent, it can be government.

[CrutchCricket]

naledgeborn wrote...


Which, you know, happens to be particularly convenient for the Asari race since, oh I don't know, just maybe only 100% of their species are "natural" biotics. Just saying.

"All asari are natural biotics, however some choose not to develop their biotic power." -ME Wiki

And should I mention biotics of other races?

This isn't "white power" it's Magneto and his "mutant supremacy". Funny, goes down like Magneto too (best part of that crap movie).

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

It's discussions like these that really make me want Miranda to kick puppies and to engineer the extinction of the asari.

Wasn't an article supposed to come out today?

What, because it'd end the debates?

[jtav]

No, because the Paragon side has so thoroughly irritated me that I will engineer them regardless of personal morals. And I always thought Miranda was a better villain than hero.

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

No, because the Paragon side has so thoroughly irritated me that I will engineer them regardless of personal morals. And I always thought Miranda was a better villain than hero.

Because of personality or external circumstances?

[jtav]

Personality. She ticks a lot of boxes for things I like in a villain, too. It would thrill me if she were still with Cerberus of her own will and working against Shepard. Since I won't get that, I want Cerberus reformed under her leadership. Meet the new boss, more capable but just as ruthless as the old boss.

[Xilizhra]

jtav wrote...

Personality. She ticks a lot of boxes for things I like in a villain, too. It would thrill me if she were still with Cerberus of her own will and working against Shepard. Since I won't get that, I want Cerberus reformed under her leadership. Meet the new boss, more capable but just as ruthless as the old boss.

Wait, sorry, wrong question. Do you hate the Paragon side because of personality or external circumstances?

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The STG is accountable. I'd say the Spectres are too, but you wouldn't believe me.
If you want a human STG equivalent, it can be government.

Accountability didn't stop the STG from modifying the Genophage which is, arguably, worse than anything Cerberus ever did.
Oh, it was necessary, no doubt about it. So is everything Cerberus does.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 octobre 2011 - 12:02 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
It would thrill me if she were still with Cerberus of her own will and working against Shepard. Since I won't get that, I want Cerberus reformed under her leadership.

I dunno. In other scenarios I could imagine it, but against the Reapers? I have a hard time imagining Miranda, as long as she's herself, not being committed to defeating the Reapers and saving humanity in the process.

Granted, TIM's motivations are going to need some explaining as well.

Modifié par flemm, 26 octobre 2011 - 12:16 .

[Athayniel]

naledgeborn wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

I sincerely hope you're not trying to use one extreme individual to disprove the otherwise valid examples of an entire race and one that claims biotic superiority, and not asari superiority to boot.

Which, you know, happens to be particularly convenient for the Asari race since, oh I don't know, just maybe only 100% of their species are "natural" biotics. Just saying.

Irrelevant to the point that it is one single individual and not one who is representative of the entire race. And her claiming biotics to be superior is a very important distinction when claiming racism, or more accurately speciesism. All asari are biotics, but not all biotics are asari.

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...
Accountability didn't stop the STG from modifying the Genophage which is, arguably, worse than anything Cerberus ever did.
Oh, it was necessary, no doubt about it. So is everything Cerberus does.

Necessary to whom? The answer to that question makes all the difference. I will also point out that the modified genophage was no worse ethically or practically than the original. Beyond that I don't think I have the energy to argue pros and cons of genophage at this time.

[Athayniel]

MisterJB wrote...

Athayniel wrote...

A race that has been coexisting peacefully on the galactic stage for nearly three millennia. Who have been instrumental in bringing other races such as the salarians, elcor and volus to the center of the galactic community. Who are considered to be a race of consumate diplomats. A race that considers it culturally de rigeur to bond and mate with members of other species.

That's actually their greatest weapon. They don't need to fight wars, they can subtly infiltrate and influentiate the cultures of other species and even outlive them.

I'm not arguing that it is a very potent weapon, but it is not an aggressive one. And please refrain from making up words for which English already has perfectly proper exemplars. =P

Also, the asari bringing the volus to the center of the galactc community? Those poor guys are a client race to the turians.

They are now, but they'd been on the Citadel for centuries before contact was ever made with the turians. The asari were instrumental in bringing them and their economics expertise to the galaxy.

If Miranda does take over Cerberus in ME3, and that's still a big "if" in my book even though I could see the benefits of it, she would need to rebuild it from the ground up to rid it of the endemic xenophobia and anthropocentrism. We already know she doesn't approve of these things, but just changing the boss isn't going to be enough to change the organisation itself.

Miranda is not a xenophobe but if Cerberus stops putting humans first, there's not much point in having it around.

Human advancement is not predicated on xenophobia. In fact in a galactic community which is as tightly integrated economically and technologically as the ME universe it is positively self-destructive.

CrutchCricket wrote...
I sincerely hope you're not trying to use one extreme individual to disprove the otherwise valid examples of an entire race and one that claims biotic superiority, and not asari superiority to boot.

The asari are the only 100% natural biotic race in the whole galaxy. Biotic superiority IS asari superiority.

Your position is still a logical fallacy. You can not generalise from one individual to an entire species. That's like my assuming all Americans are loud and obnoxious based on the one tourist I met the other day. It simply is not true.

Modifié par Athayniel, 26 octobre 2011 - 12:42 .

[MisterJB]

Athayniel wrote...
I'm not arguing that it is a very potent weapon, but it is not an aggressive one. And please refrain from making up words for which English already has perfectly proper exemplars. =P

Agressive or not, it's still a weapon and it's being used.
I made up a word? It's possible, english is not my first language. Which one?

Human advancement is not predicated on xenophobia. In fact in a galactic community which is as tightly integrated economically and technologically as the ME universe it is positively self-destructive.

It's not xenophobia. It's being a nationalist, it just so happens that the rival nations are other races.
No one suggested destroying the aliens or cut all trade contracts with them. But humanity should strive towards being the most advanced race militarily, culturally and economically. Cerberus exists to facilitate this and that's how it should remain.

Your position is still a logical fallacy. You can not generalise from one individual to an entire species. That's like my assuming all Americans are loud and obnoxious based on the one tourist I met the other day. It simply is not true.

Eraza was not a random asari, she was an important political figure that was gathering followers. She does not define the asari race but she proves that it should be watched as closely as any other.