82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Simplest and most elegant outcome of the whole infertility thing is simply Miranda genetically engineering her children like her father did, more or less, but without the domineering intent. That would be meaningful for the character without any sort of bizarre plot twist, and presumably the issue would only be addressed if the question of children were raised by the player via dialog options.

Absolutely. My favorite scenario. I wonder if the writers are ready for something that radical, though. Also I'm sure some would think it's out of character given Miranda's attitude to her own genetic engineering. Me, I think it would be a great sign that she's dealt with those issues. But it would need a little more character development to come across as convincing. 

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Absolutely. My favorite scenario. I wonder if the writers are ready for something that radical, though. Also I'm sure some would think it's out of character given Miranda's attitude to her own genetic engineering. Me, I think it would be a great sign that she's dealt with those issues. But it would need a little more character development to come across as convincing. 

To me, that's the whole reason to do it, as you say. Basically, it would be a good way of expressing the idea that Miranda has finally differentiated in her mind between her abilities/enhancements and her father's abusive behavior.

It's plausible that the writers had this in mind when the dossier was written, though entirely speculative. In which case, it makes sense, and I would approve. It would only come into play toward the end of the game, so presumably we would see some additional character development on this issue beforehand.

Modifié par flemm, 26 octobre 2011 - 05:31 .

[MisterJB]

The Uncanny wrote...
cute pic

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda says "she was meant to replace me". The timeline is non-existent for these events, but I always assumed that Miranda took Oriana with her when she ran away. Oriana was a baby when she took her, and Miranda was 16 when Oriana was born. It all fits very well. In that case, "was meant to replace me" likely meant that Oriana was to be brought up differently as to more closely become what their father intended. Oriana can't be genetically improved since they're identical.

As for Grunt - getting over it by not thinking at all isn't exactly what I'd expect Miranda to do. Also, he found purpose in joining Urdnot, and that was enough for him. For Miranda joining Cerberus is just a step of the way.

I too think Miranda leaving, and taking Oriana are separate events. Lawson chasing Miranda and only stopping when Cerberus got involved doesn't fit if he already had Oriana in the wings.

As for the Grunt connection- I would expect that if Miranda's still caught up in the issue of genetic engineering in ME3 Shepard would suggest she talk to Grunt, or at least look at his situation for a possible solution to her own. I can't imagine Grunt lecturing Miranda at any length but the fact that he pretty much ignores his origin and carves his own path in life (something that Wrex and Urdnot support him in) can serve as inspiration. I think taking charge of his destiny is just as important a lesson as him joining something that respects what he is. Miranda's done the latter (though arguably not as sucessfully). I would emphasize that it's time to do the former as well. It would also serve as character development for Grunt, allowing him to connect to somebody and not just be murder-death-kill berserk all the time.
I really want to find that earlier discussion on this now.

On the means of conception: While I approve of the genetic engineering solution I don't know if I want it as the default. There's a difference between coming to terms with a traumatic issue and becoming one who perpetuating the issue yourself. I think Miranda may accept what she is fully, but I'm not sure she would opt to continue the practice (even though she would do it benevolently and not be domineering). Also I'm assuming we're still talking within the realm of the romance and not "after the war Miranda goes off and clones herself", in which case doesn't Shepard have at least some say? I really don't want this to turn into a priority of choice discussion but still both parties should be involved, regardless of what one believes the ratios to be.

[Dr. Doctor]

@Jtav

When your talking about your idea for "The Foundation" ending, are we talking about her leading a group of scientists in a way similar to the one in Asimov's Foundation novels?

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...
I would expect that if Miranda's still caught up in the issue of genetic engineering in ME3 Shepard would suggest she talk to Grunt,

I would actually pay good money to see that.

CrutchCricket wrote...
I really want to find that earlier discussion on this now.

Page 509

Grunt: You and I are alike.

Miranda: What?

Grunt: Both of us were made to stoke the vanity of our creators. Yet you obsess over the fact.

Miranda: My father is no business of yours.

Grunt: You are a member of Shepard's clan. As am I, you have defeated many powerful foes, conqured death itself, and yet you feel no satisfaction because of some fool who thought he could control you. You have a clan, a purpose, and a life free of those who sought to bend you to their will. Why do you still consider yourself imprisoned?

Miranda: I...You're rather philosophical for a Krogan aren't you?

Grunt: I read.

Miranda: Oh.

All credits go to the good Dr. Doctor.

I think Miranda may accept what she is fully, but I'm not sure she would opt to continue the practice (even though she would do it benevolently and not be domineering). Also I'm assuming we're still talking within the realm of the romance and not "after the war Miranda goes off and clones herself",

"Imagines Miranda making a clone army of herself to ensure a safe and secure society."
Badass!

Anyway, using genetic engineering to circunvent her infertily wouldn't necessarely create another clone of Miranda. Especially if Shepard's genes are involved.

Modifié par MisterJB, 26 octobre 2011 - 07:14 .

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
I too think Miranda leaving, and taking Oriana are separate events. Lawson chasing Miranda and only stopping when Cerberus got involved doesn't fit if he already had Oriana in the wings.

I was thinking about the practicalities of it. Miranda taking Oriana with her is quite a bit easier than running away and breaking into her father's HQ later to get Oriana away. Also, I think it likely that Miranda knew about Cerberus from her father's contacts to them and ran away more or less directly to the Illusive Man. She had absolutely no experience in living on the run at that time. Could've gone either way, though.

I really want to find that earlier discussion on this now.

Sorry, you'll have to sift through the thread. I don't have that part bookmarked.
Edit:
All right, JB found it for us. Thanks, MisterJB. That's a really good exchange.

On the means of conception: While I approve of the genetic engineering solution I don't know if I want it as the default. There's a difference between coming to terms with a traumatic issue and becoming one who perpetuating the issue yourself. I think Miranda may accept what she is fully, but I'm not sure she would opt to continue the practice (even though she would do it benevolently and not be domineering). Also I'm assuming we're still talking within the realm of the romance and not "after the war Miranda goes off and clones herself", in which case doesn't Shepard have at least some say? I really don't want this to turn into a priority of choice discussion but still both parties should be involved, regardless of what one believes the ratios to be.

This is a problem only if you assume that creating children by artificial gametogenesis and IVF, then genetically optimizing them with traits you can reasonably expect to be found desirable, is in any way ethically problematic in the first place. I am of the firm opinion that it isn't. Not in any way, and would like an option for the epilogue that makes a point of exactly that.

Also, neither JB or I said that Miranda would clone herself. A child could be genetically of her and Shepard if they wanted to, like a child made the normal way except for some optimizations, just not conceived in the natural fashion since Miranda can't do that. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 octobre 2011 - 07:20 .

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...
"Imagines Miranda making a clone army of herself to ensure a safe and secure society."
Badass!

Anyway, using genetic engineering to circunvent her infertily wouldn't necessarely create another clone of Miranda. Especially if Shepard's genes are involved.

As long as the Miranda army doesn't start wearing white plastic armor, I'm good with this.

And yeah I mean to say that Shepard would be involved in the... procreation.

Thanks for finding that page for me. The dialog is great.

[flemm]

Yeah, thanks for finding that, MisterJB, very obliging on your part.

Ieldra2 wrote...
Also, neither JB or I said that Miranda would clone herself. A child could be genetically of her and Shepard if they wanted to, like a child made the normal way except for some optimizations, just not conceived in the natural fashion since Miranda can't do that. 

I was thinking along those lines as well. Not copying her father's methods exactly, especially where having a partner is concerned, but with optimizations. Without any optimizations could work also, of course, though it would be less meaningful for the character overall.

Basically, to the extent that the infertility thing is not just some sort of red herring, it feels like it will be used as a commentary on the genetic enhancements/engineering one way or another: either as part of Miranda's character arc, where she fully accepts who she is, while still condemning the abusive, controlling aspect of her father's behavior; or, in the other direction, as a way of condemning the practice of genetic engineering as unnatural and harmful.

I really hope it's the former.

Modifié par flemm, 26 octobre 2011 - 07:39 .

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I was thinking about the practicalities of it. Miranda taking Oriana with her is quite a bit easier than running away and breaking into her father's HQ later to get Oriana away. Also, I think it likely that Miranda knew about Cerberus from her father's contacts to them and ran away more or less directly to the Illusive Man. She had absolutely no experience in living on the run at that time. Could've gone either way, though.

Either way is possible but how did she meet Niket though? It doesn't seem too likely that she'd be allowed to socialize much under her father's rule. Maybe she met him after, but before she joined Cerberus because she mentions "leaving everyone else behind". That suggests some sort of activity between living under her father and Cerberus.

This is a problem only if you assume that creating children by artificial gametogenesis and IVF, then genetically optimizing them with traits you can reasonably expect to be found desirable, is in any way ethically problematic in the first place. I am of the firm opinion that it isn't. Not in any way, and would like an option for the epilogue that makes a point of exactly that.

Also, neither JB or I said that Miranda would clone herself. A child could be genetically of her and Shepard if they wanted to, like a child made the normal way except for some optimizations, just not conceived in the natural fashion since Miranda can't do that. 

It's possible there's some ethical (and quite likely public) stigma against this type of thing. Genetic engineering is common but as far as we know Miranda and her siblings are the only "artificially created" humans. It may be that some would react the way some krogan do towards Grunt. Furthermore while Shepard might not care as much about these reasons he may value the traditional approach as a matter of personal beliefs. I mean this in general. My Shep's a ruthless spacer, tradition doesn't hold much water for him.
I'll fully endorse it as an option but I don't think it should be the first or only option.

*Edit (fixed for wording)- I feel this shifting so to clarify, my point is about a, not b where:
a: Miranda using her father's method to get a kid
b: Conceiving with Shepard, whether the "normal" way or assisted by science! and then using genetic engineering to "optimize"

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 26 octobre 2011 - 07:58 .

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
And yeah I mean to say that Shepard would be involved in the... procreation.

Shepard: Ever thought of children?
Miranda: You read my dossier. You know I did.
Shepard:*coughs*: Sorry, didn't know you knew. So...you did...
Miranda: Yes. What of it? If I want them, I'll have them.
Shepard: But...
Miranda: Don't tell me you didn't notice that doctor was stuck in the 20th century with his knowledge. To say nothing of what Lazarus made possible.
Miranda *smirks*: Wait......are you worried I wouldn't let you be the father? Because they're optional these days? Is it that?
Shepard: You're awfully relaxed about the whole thing? What changed?
Miranda: Oriana. We're so different. If we didn't look alike nobody would ever believe we're sisters. So here's it: it doesn't matter how we come to be, it matters what we make of it. You've told me that, remember? But it took speaking with Oriana to make me believe it.
Shepard: Nice to hear. So...will they be yours, or ours?
Miranda: Didn't say I wanted it. Just that if I wanted to, there's a way. As for your question... (*smirks*).....well, you can always ask me nicely.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Either way is possible but how did she meet Niket though? It doesn't seem too likely that she'd be allowed to socialize much under her father's rule.

Well, Niket is part of her old life, he works for her father, so I think she knew him from before she escaped. The part that's always suggested to me that Miranda went back for Oriana later is the fact that Niket has no problem with Miranda leaving, and they seem to have had contact since, whereas he objects to Miranda taking Oriana and seems to have only found out about that recently.

Now, maybe he just didn't know about that part initially. It's not really conclusive. But it's always come across to me as a separate event.

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
Well, Niket is part of her old life, he works for her father, so I think she knew him from before she escaped. The part that's always suggested to me that Miranda went back for Oriana later is the fact that Niket has no problem with Miranda leaving, and they seem to have had contact since, whereas he objects to Miranda taking Oriana and seems to have only found out about that recently.

Now, maybe he just didn't know about that part initially. It's not really conclusive. But it's always come across to me as a separate event.

It doesn't seem to me that Niket always worked for her father. If that were the case, would she trust him so much? I think part of what makes that such a shocking confrontation was that he wasn't working for her father before, he just sold her out. Niket had no problem with her leaving sure, but I think it was more the blantant lies he was told about the "kidnapping" that made him react differently to Oriana's situation. Also if he had been working for her father the whole time he likely would've seen the kind of man he really is and he wouldn't have been so taken in.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

This is a problem only if you assume that creating children by artificial gametogenesis and IVF, then genetically optimizing them with traits you can reasonably expect to be found desirable, is in any way ethically problematic in the first place. I am of the firm opinion that it isn't. Not in any way, and would like an option for the epilogue that makes a point of exactly that.

Also, neither JB or I said that Miranda would clone herself. A child could be genetically of her and Shepard if they wanted to, like a child made the normal way except for some optimizations, just not conceived in the natural fashion since Miranda can't do that. 

It's possible there's some ethical (and quite likely public) stigma against this type of thing.

Public, possibly. Ethical, depending on your ethics. I don't think you can make a rational argument against this type of thing. Usually, it's religious preconceptions about how life processes are to remain sacrosanct that power such "ethics" (and before you bring it up, the "genetic diversity" argument is an epic fail). If you don't subscribe to them, there can be no blanket condemnation, though the matter of which kind of optimizations can reasonably expected to be found desirable needs to be discussed.

Genetic engineering is common but as far as we know Miranda and her siblings are the only "artificially created" humans. It may be that some would react the way some krogan do towards Grunt. Furthermore while Shepard might not care as much about these reasons he may value the traditional approach as a matter of personal beliefs. I mean this in general. My Shep's a ruthless spacer, tradition doesn't hold much water for him.
I'll fully endorse it as an option but I don't think it should be the first or only option.

Yeah, some might react that way, but these are just the kind of people I have no respect for whatsever. To hold your genetic origins against you is racism. Nonetheless, should that topic come up in the epilogues at all (of which I'm not convinced), Bioware won't make engineered children the only option, if only to avoid crossing those traditional beliefs. I'll be satisfied if they include it at all. What I'd hate is for the traditionalist option (=rejecting it all) being the only one. Then I'll cry foul.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 octobre 2011 - 08:01 .

[General User]

I'm given to understand that Miranda is not able to conceive, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have options as long as her ova are still viable. What about a using a surrogate? Or (if they exist in ME) and artificial womb?

[Ieldra]

General User wrote...
I'm given to understand that Miranda is not able to conceive, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have options as long as her ova are still viable. What about a using a surrogate? Or (if they exist in ME) and artificial womb?

I've outlined the different options in the FAQ (linked in the OP). Considering the likely level of biotechnology in the ME universe, there is almost no case where it couldn't be done. If Miranda's ova are not viable, you can create them by artificial gametogenesis (an article about that - it's been looked into by real world science - is also linked in the FAQ, by one Mr. Lawson no less, LOL). Fertilization can be done by IVF. And either a surrogate mother or an artificial uterus will do the rest.

This is why I can't take that medical report seriously. The writer didn't write in the ME universe.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
It doesn't seem to me that Niket always worked for her father.

I guess it's possible he didn't. But she does refer to him as part of her old life. Heuuu... honestly, I think I would have to replay the scenes to try to be more precise. Possibly we just don't have enough info to be sure.

[CuseGirl]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda: Oriana. We're so different. If we didn't look alike nobody would ever believe we're sisters. So here's it: it doesn't matter how we come to be, it matters what we make of it. You've told me that, remember? But it took speaking with Oriana to make me believe it.

they dont look alike at all

[CuseGirl]

flemm wrote...

Simplest and most elegant outcome of the whole infertility thing is simply Miranda genetically engineering her children like her father did, more or less, but without the domineering intent. That would be meaningful for the character without any sort of bizarre plot twist, and presumably the issue would only be addressed if the question of children were raised by the player via dialog options (so, avoidable for players who are not interesting in children).

So, I could see that working.

genetically engineer in what way? do you mean like have the kids and then do stuff to them? Or do you mean somehow concieve the child and then give birth to it......

[flemm]

CuseGirl wrote...
genetically engineer in what way? do you mean like have the kids and then do stuff to them? Or do you mean somehow concieve the child and then give birth to it......

Probably more like the latter, as far as anything genetic is concerned.

[CuseGirl]

flemm wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...
genetically engineer in what way? do you mean like have the kids and then do stuff to them? Or do you mean somehow concieve the child and then give birth to it......

Probably more like the latter, as far as anything genetic is concerned.

dont give these writers too much credit, you KNO they're gonna come up with Super Shep Sperm lmaaaoooo, the dreaded SSS, poor Ieldra2

[flemm]

CuseGirl wrote...

dont give these writers too much credit, you KNO they're gonna come up with Super Shep Sperm lmaaaoooo, the dreaded SSS, poor Ieldra2

LoL. Well, you never know.

[Dr. Doctor]

If it gets handwaved away I want this to happen:

Shepard: (hands Miranda a datapad) Liara found your dossier in the Shadow Broker's files.

Miranda: Really? (looks over the files and frowns) You know for someone billed as being omniscient this file is rather out of date.

Shepard: What do you mean, out of date?

Miranda: Well this medical report for instance is a few years old, it references a condition that I took care of a long time ago (notices the expression on Shepard's face) You read this didn't you?

Shepard: I might have skimmed it.

Miranda: (smirks) You had the "I'm going to say something reassuring to make you feel better" look on your face. Shepard, if I can bring back the dead what would make you think that I couldn't deal with something as minor as that?

Shepard: Good point.

[CuseGirl]

Doc Doc with the fanfic snapshot....

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

If it gets handwaved away I want this to happen:

*snip*

I could definitely live with something like that