82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Eyeshield21]

flemm wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

If it gets handwaved away I want this to happen:

*snip*

I could definitely live with something like that

I second this.

[Shotokanguy]

Heh. I never thought about the Shadow Broker's information being out of date. That would be a funny little twist.

Though I don't know if Miranda would so easily deal with the problem. I get the idea that Wilson was the brains of the operation, while Miranda had more of an assistance/overseeing role.

[ShepardsIdol]

Eyeshield21 wrote...

flemm wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

If it gets handwaved away I want this to happen:

*snip*

I could definitely live with something like that

I second this.

Im Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite post on my favorite thread on the citadel

[jtav]

I'd be happy with something similar as well.

Anyway, I've just completed the love secene. Let's get the bad out of the way first, shall we? The timing/location is atrocious. I can't help but think of the crew, especially sense Joker's mission ends in the same place. Everything past when she unzips her bra looks silly. It's all very soap opera-esque, pretending to be steamy but showing only enough to be embarrassing instead of erotic. Either show me or don't, but make up your mind.

There were things I liked. Miranda has a brief flash of anxiety at the beginning, hinting that this playfulness may be an act. The blocking of the scene until she takes her clothes off is very nice. I got a real sense they were enjoying the act. It's a mutual seduction, and Shep seems content to let Miranda take the lead. No crying, no drama, just two adults having fun. I like that very much when I ignore the context. And after watching Jacob's scene, the lack of dialogue is a virtue.

I also did the rejection scene, which I liked better. Now, it's Shep's turn to be all about the mission. Miranda doesn't miss a beat and seems to respect him more. You can almost see the wheels turning in her head as she plots exactly how she's going to rip his clothes off once the missions over. She's possessive and playful all at once, and the issues with the love scene are absent. It's hot, pure and simple. And, Arrival or not, it feels more emotionally right to me for them not to have sex here. I don't want them to have sex because they're going to die, but because they survived.

So, I'm conflicted. On the whole, I prefer non-consummation, but I'm skittish abiut the imports. And my feelings toward the scene are more "meh: than hatred.

[CuseGirl]

jtav wrote...

And, Arrival or not, it feels more emotionally right to me for them not to have sex here. I don't want them to have sex because they're going to die, but because they survived.

this is the part i'm confused about....you can do the "damn it your right" scene, then do Arrival, then talk to her again, get the Reaper IFF and then Love Scene --->SM? Or is the rejection scene after she says "i think we're crazy but i'm interested?" and u say "no"? If I say no there, can I get back into the romance?

[jtav]

The rejection seem I'm referring to is turning down the engine room sex. You can still call her up afterward, so I don't know if it breaks the romance or not.

[Vertigo_1]

jtav wrote...

The rejection seem I'm referring to is turning down the engine room sex. You can still call her up afterward, so I don't know if it breaks the romance or not.

I doubt it breaks it, seeing as how you can do that if you say yes to 'engine room sex' as you put it:P

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 27 octobre 2011 - 02:37 .

[CuseGirl]

jtav wrote...

The rejection seem I'm referring to is turning down the engine room sex. You can still call her up afterward, so I don't know if it breaks the romance or not.

so you mean when she comes out of the elevator?......hmm......

after my debable a few weeks ago, i wont screw around....i'll just run thru the romance convos, do arrival right before the Reaper IFF mission.....

[Shotokanguy]

I've always wanted to see the response if you turn down Miranda at the elevator. It might be an alternate route to take instead of the "damn it, you're right" response, but no one has uploaded it to Youtube...I want to see it first.

[CuseGirl]

Shotokanguy wrote...

I've always wanted to see the response if you turn down Miranda at the elevator. It might be an alternate route to take instead of the "damn it, you're right" response, but no one has uploaded it to Youtube...I want to see it first.

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

The rejection seem I'm referring to is turning down the engine room sex. You can still call her up afterward, so I don't know if it breaks the romance or not.

If that occurs then the flag is there. I agree that the rejection scene is more enjoyable than the engine room scene, mostly because of the reasons Jtav listed.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Public, possibly. Ethical, depending on your ethics. I don't think you can make a rational argument against this type of thing. Usually, it's religious preconceptions about how life processes are to remain sacrosanct that power such "ethics" (and before you bring it up, the "genetic diversity" argument is an epic fail). If you don't subscribe to them, there can be no blanket condemnation, though the matter of which kind of optimizations can reasonably expected to be found desirable needs to be discussed.

Sorry I meant to reply to this earlier but got caught up in other stuff and now I'm too tired to fully go at it. In short there are ethical postions against the claim that can be supported rationally and without calling on religious notions or genetic diversity. Ultimately nearly all ethics has personal values at its foundation so a defensible argument can be constructed based on those values both sides can agree to, that logically shows "artificial genetically engineered humans" are inconsistent with upholding those values. It's vague and abstract but it's all I've got right now. I was thinking about it earlier and almost had an example, but other things interfered. If you want we can pick it up again later.

Regarding the romance culmination, I suppose I must congratulate you jtav. Your analyses on some of the scenes have actually made me consider the possibility of holding out on them for a greater reward in ME3 (all based on the assumption that such will actually be the case). However the pre-engine room rejection scene I watched just killed it. It is hot and it does seem to make Miranda want him more... up until she mentions the Illusive man. That just destroyed it for me and kudos to CuseGirl for providing the youtube link so I didn't have to go through it myself. I love her tone, the way she looks, everything that happens, until she says "TIM was right in picking you". Why, why would she say that? Rejection or not this was still supposed to be their moment. "Focusing on the mission" means (or should mean) "we're barely containing ourselves here but we still have to save the day" not" oh hey let's remind you of the guy that at one point or another represented everything that is/was bad blood between us". She could've said literally anything else, from "you remind me of myself" to "there won't always be a mission Shepard"  to "it's peanut butter jelly time!" Seriously. I might've let it slide any other time but after denying myself sex with the most attractive woman in the galaxy I get to hear that her boss approves, with all the goodwill he's carrying? Christ I'd take the sex scene redrawn in crayon over that. Not to mention that as soon as she says that I feel like I just passed some sort of test and wily Cerberus likes how their lab rat is doing oh yes indeed. Ugh, that may quicky grow to be my most hated line.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 27 octobre 2011 - 04:50 .

[Shotokanguy]

CuseGirl wrote...

Shotokanguy wrote...

I've always wanted to see the response if you turn down Miranda at the elevator. It might be an alternate route to take instead of the "damn it, you're right" response, but no one has uploaded it to Youtube...I want to see it first.

Heh. I even thought of doing a search for it after I made that post, since it had been a while since the last time I tried to find it.

I gotta say...I kind of don't like the way Yvonne delivered those lines...it sounds weird, like Miranda doesn't really care that much, or that she expected it. Though I suppose it isn't all that bad if she expects Shepard to say that - then it looks more like Miranda was simply giving Shepard a very kind gesture.

What do you think of that interpretation, jtav?

[Ieldra]

CuseGirl wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda: Oriana. We're so different. If we didn't look alike nobody would ever believe we're sisters. So here's it: it doesn't matter how we come to be, it matters what we make of it. You've told me that, remember? But it took speaking with Oriana to make me believe it.

they dont look alike at all

They do. The game just refuses to show us. Bioware used a generic model for Oriana. Given the alternative hypotheses (1) two genetically identical adult healthy individuals, one 19, one 35, look not at all alike, and (2) they do, but there's a mistake in the presentation, I think that (2) is more likely.

[Bran187]

Shotokanguy wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

Shotokanguy wrote...

I've always wanted to see the response if you turn down Miranda at the elevator. It might be an alternate route to take instead of the "damn it, you're right" response, but no one has uploaded it to Youtube...I want to see it first.

Heh. I even thought of doing a search for it after I made that post, since it had been a while since the last time I tried to find it.

I gotta say...I kind of don't like the way Yvonne delivered those lines...it sounds weird, like Miranda doesn't really care that much, or that she expected it. Though I suppose it isn't all that bad if she expects Shepard to say that - then it looks more like Miranda was simply giving Shepard a very kind gesture.

What do you think of that interpretation, jtav?

Not Jtav but im gonna comment anyway. lol

IDK to me it kinda felt like she was disapointed. Like 'sad puppy' version of Miranda. She was totally crying inside. lol I would never reject her personally, so maybe its just me wanting her to be disapointed, but thats just the way i read it.

[Bran187]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CuseGirl wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Miranda: Oriana. We're so different. If we didn't look alike nobody would ever believe we're sisters. So here's it: it doesn't matter how we come to be, it matters what we make of it. You've told me that, remember? But it took speaking with Oriana to make me believe it.

they dont look alike at all

They do. The game just refuses to show us. Bioware used a generic model for Oriana. Given the alternative hypotheses (1) two genetically identical adult healthy individuals, one 19, one 35, look not at all alike, and (2) they do, but there's a mistake in the presentation, I think that (2) is more likely.

I agree, more then likely it is scenerio 2. Or a combo of one and 2, i don't know a single 35 year old who looked the same at 19. But maybe by looking alike Miranda means that thats what she looked like at 19. 

Who knows, but i agree with  you. Most likely just a mistake 'cough' lazy development 'cough'. lol

[Ieldra]

CuseGirl wrote...

flemm wrote...
Simplest and most elegant outcome of the whole infertility thing is simply Miranda genetically engineering her children like her father did, more or less, but without the domineering intent. That would be meaningful for the character without any sort of bizarre plot twist, and presumably the issue would only be addressed if the question of children were raised by the player via dialog options (so, avoidable for players who are not interesting in children).

So, I could see that working.

genetically engineer in what way? do you mean like have the kids and then do stuff to them? Or do you mean somehow concieve the child and then give birth to it......

Actually, no genetic engineering would be required, just advanced methods of assisted reproduction. You'd need to do something like this:

Take stem cells from Miranda and encourage them (by complex biochemical triggers) to undergo meiosis in vitro. This would result in primordial germ cells. Make these cells mature into ova. (Everything up to this point has been done with mouse cells by real-world science, but not yet with human cells). After that, just use regular IVF to fertilize the ova and implant them. Depending on the exact nature of Miranda's infertility either in her or a surrogate mother. If the technology is available, an artificial uterus might be used as a third option.

Genetic modification may come in at every stage of this process, either to her genetic material or the father's. She might even go all the way her father did and create an artificial set of chromosomes, facilitating pseudo-sexual reproduction, a kind of parthenogenesis. But all that remains optional if the only goal is to have genetic offspring.

So really, it shouldn't be difficult at all to circumvent Miranda's infertility. An artificial uterus will likely remain science fiction for a while, but for everything else, let twenty years pass and we'll have it in the real world.

Edit:
Much to my astonishment, I found that artificial human chromosomes have also been created by real-world science, though they're not yet as complex as the natural ones.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 octobre 2011 - 08:48 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
So, I'm conflicted. On the whole, I prefer non-consummation, but I'm skittish abiut the imports. And my feelings toward the scene are more "meh: than hatred.

Well, if you keep a save just prior to that scene, you should be good either way, right? You would just need to replay the SM, which is pretty enjoyable. I'm doing that with a save or two, since I do like the alternative ending to the romance as well.

[jtav]

She doesn't look upset to me, just hungry. I could feel more sexual tension here than in the sex scene. They're going to be having extremely hot victory sex shortly. And it strikes me that this is the best answer to "don't die." The desire to consummate the relationship now in case of death is unspoken but present. Turning her down here (and you're just turning down sex, not romance) is saying that you plan to live and do this properly. James doesn't want sex before he dies. He wants her in his life every single day before the Alliance comes.

Modifié par jtav, 27 octobre 2011 - 01:39 .

[flemm]

I agree with a lot of what you said there. Basically, I'm cool with both options as long as the relationship becomes more emotionally involved in ME3, which it plausibly should.

Modifié par flemm, 27 octobre 2011 - 01:49 .

[CrutchCricket]

Morning, gang (well it is here anyway).
I wonder at the tactical soundness of turning her down. Note, this has nothing to do with the romantic feelings of the matter. Part of the reason a sex scene occurs at all is blowing off steam, easing tension before the mission (as postulated by Mordin).
That being said Shep and Miranda haven't eased tension, they've just increased it. Like I said before I see the point of holding back, building it up for the romance aspect of it and "doing it right". However in a strict mission planning sense, isn't this a poor decision? Going in with sexual tension remaining can be a huge distraction. It works out in the end (most times anyway). But still, you'd figure two smart leaders being all about the mission would realize that's not the best way to go about it.

And still hate that TIM line with a passion. See my rant above for why.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 27 octobre 2011 - 02:02 .

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
And still hate that TIM line with a passion. See my rant above for why.

That line is somewhat interesting, actually.  Possibly it's an allusion to the idea that part of Miranda's assignment was to seduce Shepard, in order to help turn him to the dark side, so to speak. It fits with the femme fatale concept. But obviously, over time, things worked out differently.

Modifié par flemm, 27 octobre 2011 - 02:15 .

[jtav]

I don't think she was. Honey traps to switch allegiance have a significant risk of backfiring, which is why most of them are actually blackmail scams. Far more likely it's a call back to her earliest scenes, where she questions how worthwhile Shep is. He passed her test, not TIM's. And the sex was not to "blow off steam" for me. I'm actually fairly conservative and romantic. I'll do it right or not at all.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I don't think she was. Honey traps to switch allegiance have a significant risk of backfiring, which is why most of them are actually blackmail scams. Far more likely it's a call back to her earliest scenes, where she questions how worthwhile Shep is. He passed her test, not TIM's. And the sex was not to "blow off steam" for me. I'm actually fairly conservative and romantic. I'll do it right or not at all.

I agree that does make sense.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
And still hate that TIM line with a passion. See my rant above for why.

That line is somewhat interesting, actually.  Possibly it's an allusion to the idea that part of Miranda's assignment was to seduce Shepard, in order to help turn him to the dark side, so to speak. It fits with the femme fatale concept. But obviously, over time, things worked out differently.

I read this differently. She reverts to professional mode here, accepts that they have something to do before they can indulge their mutual attraction. I find it fitting and it doesn't annoy me, nor does it allude to a possible seduction assignment.

An interesting aspect ist that she's still loyal to TIM at this point. No hint of any lingering doubt here....