82210 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

I still want her to come back to Cerberus, triumphant. And the horrible thing? I want her to be exactly like TIM only less stupid. Maybe if I push her really Renegade.

[MisterJB]

flemm wrote...
But, I still think that being a prisoner of Cerberus, and perhaps being subjected to torture, etc., by them, would have a pretty big impact.

I simply find it hard to believe that Miranda actually needs to go through a similar situation in order to feel sorry for a child being tortured.
As far as we know, Miranda could have been captured during a mission and tortured. Obviously, being tortured by the organization she worked for for 20 years would be more poignant but that's not something linked to Jack.

jtav wrote...
After you keep the base, Miranda says she hopes whatever Cerberus found in the base was worth it. Not we, Cerberus. She no longer identifies herself with them. So I wonder if she might say that it was Cerberus that was responsible for Teltin now.

Since it's not the only time Miranda speaks of Cerberus as "they" instead of "we", I don't think it can be used as an indicator of where Miranda's loyalty to Cerberus stands after the SM. 

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I still want her to come back to Cerberus, triumphant. And the horrible thing? I want her to be exactly like TIM only less stupid. Maybe if I push her really Renegade.

Less stupid might be a part of it. But it's likely that TIM was intentionally creating an atmosphere that promoted the kind of reckless, foolhardy and cruel experiments that we have seen certain Cerberus cells resort to, in order to meet his demands. I see no reason to think Miranda would operate like that. Quite the contrary.

MisterJB wrote...
I simply find it hard to believe that Miranda actually needs to go through a similar situation in order to feel sorry for a child being tortured.

Well, I think there's a pretty big difference between experiencing it and just sympathising. I mean, I haven't been tortured. I still sympathise with those who have, of course, but I still believe I would have a different view if I actually experienced torture. Let alone if I were tortured by the organisation whose activities I was previously prone to rationalising. Different level of sympathy.

As to your hypothetical about Miranda already having experienced something very similar, well, it's possible, but it's just a hypothetical.

Modifié par flemm, 28 octobre 2011 - 02:23 .

[Dr. Doctor]

I'm starting to think that Miranda's not so much loyal to TIM but is more loyal to what Cerberus stands for. She's willing to go behind TIM's back when she feels that its neccesary (such as in Jacob's LM, and relocating that crew member's family). If this is the case then maybe the "it wasn't Cerberus, not really" line reflects that thinking, Teltin wasn't working to improve humanity, they were just torturing biotic kids to see what would happen whatever the original purpose of the project was it got derailed at some point.

Its ideas like this that make me want a sort of "Tales of the Crew" book that contains short stories told from each squad member's POV.

[Tom Roark]

I just want to have sex with her.

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
I'm starting to think that Miranda's not so much loyal to TIM but is more loyal to what Cerberus stands for. She's willing to go behind TIM's back when she feels that its neccesary (such as in Jacob's LM, and relocating that crew member's family). If this is the case then maybe the "it wasn't Cerberus, not really" line reflects that thinking, Teltin wasn't working to improve humanity, they were just torturing biotic kids to see what would happen whatever the original purpose of the project was it got derailed at some point.

That's what I've always thought. When I was speaking of loyalty to TIM in one of my previous posts, I didn't meant personal loyalty, but one that's grounded in a common cause. As of ME2, they still have a common cause in Miranda's eyes. How much of that will be left in ME3 remains to be seen.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
I still want her to come back to Cerberus, triumphant. And the horrible thing? I want her to be exactly like TIM only less stupid. Maybe if I push her really Renegade.

Less stupid might be a part of it. But it's likely that TIM was intentionally creating an atmosphere that promoted the kind of reckless, foolhardy and cruel experiments that we have seen certain Cerberus cells resort to, in order to meet his demands. I see no reason to think Miranda would operate like that. Quite the contrary.

Wouldn't she? Well, I don't think she'd overlook pointless cruelty like on Teltin, and she'd be more careful with alien technology. But I can see her being just as ruthless as TIM in a more well-considered way. This is why:

Look at TIM's history. In 2157, he got the knowledge (if we can call his vision that) of a big threat against humanity which later turned out to be the Reapers. He didn't know what it was, only that it had technology advanced enough to appear like magic. His ruthlessness might come out of a desperate need to advance humanity enough in the shortest possible time to stand against that threat, and since no one would believe him if he made his knowledge public, just as Shepard wasn't believed with much greater evidence in store, he needed to set up his own organization. I can see Miranda thinking along the same lines. Desperate need calls for desperate measures.  

Once the Reapers are defeated, the need for such measures would be greatly reduced, so any future Cerberus-like organization led by Miranda wouldn't need to be quite as ruthless. But I think she has the capacity in her, and I'd like her to show that side in ME3 occasionally.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 octobre 2011 - 07:34 .

[seirhart]

I do not want miranda to return to cereberus or TIM, I want her to find other activities to do. Miranda could create her own group, I don't know what it would be about but I think that would be cool. I know some might not agree but I want miranda to continue to wear her body hugging jump suits with the heels during missions/combat and when not in combat.

[JosephDucreux]

Wait what? Miranda's not going to be back because of the buckethead and Garrus? I'll nuke them, then get the groupies. It's cause of those damn groupies who amount to about 15% of the ME2 players that we're missing out. Grr.

Anyways, I highly doubt that Miranda will be a temp. She's just too damn important for that, and also, she more likely than not needs your help to topple Cerberus. Resourceful and powerful she may be, but she can't topple an organization the Citadel species have been trying to destroy since its very inception on her own. Jacob may be a temp, but Miri...nah. Nope.

Modifié par JosephDucreux, 28 octobre 2011 - 09:10 .

[seirhart]

If you take her with you to fight Terminator she will quit cereberus I don't know if she still stays with cereberus if you don't take her with you to fight terminator. For me when she says that she quits cereberus when you take her with you I believe her 100%

[Arijharn]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Desperate need calls for desperate measures.   

Once the Reapers are defeated, the need for such measures would be greatly reduced, so any future Cerberus-like organization led by Miranda wouldn't need to be quite as ruthless. But I think she has the capacity in her, and I'd like her to show that side in ME3 occasionally.

I agree, yet I don't as well. The nature of unknown threats is that they're unknown. I don't think anybody (including Miranda), would want to rest on their laurels even post-Reaper invasion.

[Aurora313]

Hi guys.

I am in no way trying to troll, and unfortunately, I don't actively have the time to go through 700+ pages of forum - if it's approximately 25 posts per page, that's over 17,500 posts I would have to go through.

I would also like to point out that I have no problems with people who like Miranda - but may I ask, why do you like her? What qualities, beyond her obvious features, attract you to her character?

[Ieldra]

Arijharn wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Desperate need calls for desperate measures.   

Once the Reapers are defeated, the need for such measures would be greatly reduced, so any future Cerberus-like organization led by Miranda wouldn't need to be quite as ruthless. But I think she has the capacity in her, and I'd like her to show that side in ME3 occasionally.

I agree, yet I don't as well. The nature of unknown threats is that they're unknown. I don't think anybody (including Miranda), would want to rest on their laurels even post-Reaper invasion.

I did say the need would be greatly reduced - not eliminated. Of course Miranda wouldn't stop working for humanity's advancement, and of course that would include all the typical modes of operation of a coverts ops organization. But I think sacrificing individual (unwilling) humans for the greater cause would become much less common. After all, at some point, "protection and advancement of humanity" comes down to protection and advancement of humans.

[Ieldra]

Aurora313 wrote...
I would also like to point out that I have no problems with people who like Miranda - but may I ask, why do you like her? What qualities, beyond her obvious features, attract you to her character?

I could tell you to read the OP, but I'll quote it for you:

Why do you like Miranda?
There are many different reasons why people like Miranda. Here are some of them. Note that the reasons for liking her as a character may differ from those for being attracted to her for a romance. I've tried to put the list in a descending order of importance, but there is some disagreement about the order, except for (1), which seems to be universal consensus among her fans.
(1) She’s an independently powerful and competent woman who can deal with her problems – professional or emotional – on her own (note: that doesn’t mean she doesn’t appreciate help). She’s the only female LI character who plays in the same league as Shepard. That makes her a perfect companion for him.
(2) She’s morally ambiguous. Black and white types tend to be predictable – and thus, often less interesting than those with grey morality. Her mental flexibility also means that she adapts better to situations where conventional morality just doesn't apply.
(3) She’s emotionally detached... - enough to be fascinating and refreshing, but not so much as to be unlikeable. All too often women in fiction are represented as more or less defined by their emotions. Miranda breaks that pattern. She can be professional; she can be coldly detached or coolly unmovable. She can also be emotional, but she’s not restricted to that.
(4) ...but does warm up to those she respects and trusts. Trust and (professional) respect are interwoven in her relationship to you. Once you've gained them, she becomes more open with you, and you know that's something special.
(5) She’s a “spy with superpowers”. This combination of power and mystery is irresistible to many of her fans.
(6) She's a woman, not a girl. Her grown-up and balanced personality attracts many fans.
(7) She's unapologetically sexual - and not presented as a sl*t because of it (forget the ass shots and pay attention to her behavior if you don't believe it). That's refreshing because more conventional stories like to paint a woman who enjoys sex - to say nothing of sex in engine rooms - in a more negative light.
(8) She's human. For those who find interspecies romance unconvincing, that’s an important aspect if you want to romance her.
(9) She’s engineered to be perfect. That makes her special in a way you cannot acquire by learning or even character development. While for some, that’s a point of attraction in itself, if you’re a transhumanist you might also be thrilled by the fact that she might be – dare I say it – the genetic destiny of humanity.
(10) She’s beautiful. This point is not as minor as people might want to make themselves believe. It’s not a necessary condition for liking her, but Miranda would be a different character if she were ugly. If you think she's not beautiful, look at these screenshots. one two three

Everyone of us here has a slightly different take on Miranda and would place these aspects in a different order or even remove some altogether, but I think this list is rather comprehensive.

May I ask: do you have problems with Miranda? If yes, why?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 octobre 2011 - 11:06 .

[Aurora313]

I don't have a problem with her per se. I have never much had a liking to her character. Not to say I don't value her abilities in the gameplay, I simply don't feel anything for her character.

While yes, It touched me a bit that she told The Illusive Man to go to hell and that she risked everything for a genetically identical younger sister. Especially being the youngest sister myself, I can imagine that my brothers would do anything to help me if I ever found myself in deep trouble. But beyond that, I've never had much of an interest in her, either a romantic partner for my Shepard, or as his friend. That being said, my Shepard does respect her and have a comfortable working relationship with her.

My Shepard remains loyal to Ashley. I don't see Horizon as a break-up, more like a screw-up patch, but not a break up.

[JosephDucreux]

I'm really starting to like the scenario where Miranda becomes the 3rd human Spectre and runs operations against batarian slavers, terrorists etc...

All that while juggling her marriage with Shepard and having kids. Now THAT'S one helluva woman.

P.S. I never liked the idea of Miranda and Jacob getting back together if neither were romanced. It always felt like 'Ok, since Shep doesn't want either of us, we're stuck with each other.' Besides, both parties made it abundantly clear that despite the fact that they had lingering feelings for each other, they've moved on. And Miri/Liara...no offense, but I've always found Liara to be the blandest character in Mass Effect. Her becoming the Shadow Broker made her slightly more interesting though.

[Ieldra]

@Aurora13:
Ashley is OK. I rather like her, too. But as Ashley has a rather traditional value system, it's somewhat surprising that I do. Miranda, on the other hand, could've been made to my specifications.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 octobre 2011 - 11:36 .

[Aurora313]

@ Ieldra2

I suppose that makes sense.
Thanks for indulging me.

[nitefyre410]

Aurora313 wrote...

Hi guys.

I am in no way trying to troll, and unfortunately, I don't actively have the time to go through 700+ pages of forum - if it's approximately 25 posts per page, that's over 17,500 posts I would have to go through.

I would also like to point out that I have no problems with people who like Miranda - but may I ask, why do you like her? What qualities, beyond her obvious features, attract you to her character?

 


Me Personaly she  is  the  Batman to my  Shepards  Superman - its the best  way  I can discribe it - if this anology makes any kinda of sense.  

Both want the same thing, both have different ways of going about that balance each other out very  well.   Plus I rather enjoyed that fact that  she was not  falling down over Shepard from day one (none of the characters do really).    

[Arijharn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I did say the need would be greatly reduced - not eliminated. Of course Miranda wouldn't stop working for humanity's advancement, and of course that would include all the typical modes of operation of a coverts ops organization. But I think sacrificing individual (unwilling) humans for the greater cause would become much less common. After all, at some point, "protection and advancement of humanity" comes down to protection and advancement of humans.

Right, but like you said though individual humans do not really count as much for humanity as a gestalt whole. I'd imagine that although they may not go out and abduct random people; they'd very much continue to go and abduct very specific people instead.

As an aside; wouldn't it be rather fascinating to learn that Corporal Toombs was actually a Cerberus volunteer? but the whole 'torture' part made him rather selective with memory or facts (although not necessarily deliberately).

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Wouldn't she? Well, I don't think she'd overlook pointless cruelty like on Teltin, and she'd be more careful with alien technology. But I can see her being just as ruthless as TIM in a more well-considered way.

Absolutely not, unless we assume she is lying in the game when she expresses herself on these issues, and there is nothing to support that. Where she draws the line is: no experiments on sentient beings (cruel or without their consent), as evidenced by the Rachni example, and no systematic abuse or pointless cruelty as on Teltin. She knows about the Reaper threat and does not excuse those activities with the "desperate times" argument.

Moreover, partly what we are talking about here is a management style. TIM's approach seems to be to drive his subordinates to extreme measures that he can then take credit for, if they go well, or that he can deny responsability for, if something goes wrong.

It's a reckless, hypocritrical approach that does not suit Miranda.

Modifié par flemm, 28 octobre 2011 - 12:55 .

[CrutchCricket]

This is the CrutchCricket report, bringing you regular updates on my opinions whenever the hell I feel like.

Anyway, welcome Aurora 313, glad you stopped by. The size of this thread can be intimidating but you and I are proof that one can still jump in (I've only been here a week). I must say Horizon did leave a bad taste and I've moved on from Ashey but I still like her character. Hope you stick around if you're curious about more speculation on Miranda.

In other news:

JosephDucreux wrote...

I'm really starting to like the scenario where Miranda becomes the 3rd human Spectre and runs operations against batarian slavers, terrorists etc...

All that while juggling her marriage with Shepard and having kids. Now THAT'S one helluva woman.

P.S. I never liked the idea of Miranda and Jacob getting back together if neither were romanced. It always felt like 'Ok, since Shep doesn't want either of us, we're stuck with each other.' Besides, both parties made it abundantly clear that despite the fact that they had lingering feelings for each other, they've moved on. And Miri/Liara...no offense, but I've always found Liara to be the blandest character in Mass Effect. Her becoming the Shadow Broker made her slightly more interesting though.

I don't know how I feel about Spectres. They came off as so badass in the first game and so irrelevant in the second. I realize this may just be perspective but on the other hand Spectres are influencial only in Council space and the second game clearly shows Council space is not the whole galaxy. And as far as skills and training go, yeah they kick ass but they're not necessarily the ultimate warriors. Therefore I see Shepard transcending mere Spectrehood. What does this mean for Miranda? Well first off she may fit in with the methods but not necessarily the politics. I'm actually surprised no one's posted dead set against this yet. I'd be open to it, but it doesn't seem the best path to me. And careful mentioning family life. Some people tend to take it too far the other way.

I'm actually mildly allergic to the notion of Miranda/Jacob as well. He had his shot, it didn't pan out. "She deserves a better man than I"- says so himself. I would not like to see anything of the sort. If Shepard is not with Miranda she can find someone else suitably badass that hasn't been see yet- no one else we know of fits. This includes Liara. I don't think she's bland at all I actually quite like her. But their personalities don't really match and while Miranda is not xenophobic I don't see her forming emotional attachments to an alien.

Otherwise, minor points: watched Casey Q&A, essentially revealed ****-all. Not encouraged. Still firmly adhere to squadmate or bust. Nice dialogues, Dr. Doctor but I think I prefer Miranda in the later parts of the game to the end as opposed to the beginning. And if jtav's allowed to revel in fallbacks, I think I'll visit the Liara thread for a bit.

[Aurora313]

Thank you for the welcome, though I was only here to have one question answered for the sake of my curiosity.

My question has been answered and my curiosity has been sated. I truthfully have no interest in this thread. I'm not trying to sound like a cow or a b!tch, but I just wanted to have a question answered. It's been answered so now I take my leave.

Cheerio, enjoy your discussions and thank you again.

Modifié par Aurora313, 28 octobre 2011 - 01:01 .

[CrutchCricket]

Well then<_<...

hope you enjoyed your stay!:happy:

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Wouldn't she? Well, I don't think she'd overlook pointless cruelty like on Teltin, and she'd be more careful with alien technology. But I can see her being just as ruthless as TIM in a more well-considered way.

Absolutely not, unless we assume she is lying in the game when she expresses herself on these issues, and there is nothing to support that. Where she draws the line is: no experiments on sentient beings (cruel or without their consent), as evidenced by the Rachni example, and no systematic abuse or pointless cruelty as on Teltin. She knows about the Reaper threat and does not excuse those activities with the "desperate times" argument.

So you think she wouldn't develop something like the genophage in a situation like the krogan rebellions? You can't seriously believe that the salarians never tested it on a live krogan before deploying it.... I think Miranda would be perfectly capable of something like that. The difference, of course, being that the krogan were proven enemies.

Moreover, partly what we are talking about here is a management style. TIM's approach seems to be to drive his subordinates to extreme measures that he can then take credit for, if they go well, or that he can deny responsability for, if something goes wrong.

It's a reckless, hypocritrical approach that does not suit Miranda.

No doubt she would prefer a different style. But again, TIM's pressure *could* be seen as a mark of desperate necessity, and "plausible deniability" has its role in politics, even if it's just Cerberus-internal politics here. She wouldn't take credit for something others did, sure, but that's about it. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 octobre 2011 - 01:24 .