82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
I admit that it would be interesting to have Miranda pop up on missions sort of like River Song. For instance having a mission where your staging an assault on a Cerberus base only to find that Miranda and her own squad got there first.

I agree.

As I said very much earlier in this thread, what matters for me is her screen presence. If we meet her often, then it doesn't matter as much if she has limited time on the team. And it would make Miranda really be a power on her own.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

I'm not as concerned with Miri being on our squad as I am with the amount of interaction we'll get with her. The only way I won't be pissed about her being a temp is if I can talk to her for most of the game via hologram or something like that. Even though I'll miss her great combat skills, I'll still get to talk to her, which is the most important for me.

Now for a pic:



I wish I could have a threesome with Miri and Siha...yes Cheryl is a Vanguard. Hence the glowy stuff.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
So you think she wouldn't develop something like the genophage in a situation like the krogan rebellions? You can't seriously believe that the salarians never tested it on a live krogan before deploying it.... I think Miranda would be perfectly capable of something like that. The difference, of course, being that the krogan were proven enemies.

Well, I imagine she would struggle with it much the way Mordin struggles with it. These are my favorite characters, and I think they both have a similar balance of understanding pragmatic necessity without abandoning questions of ethics and morality.

The specific question of experiments on live Krogan comes up during Mordin's loyalty mission, as I recall. And he does not approve of his former colleague's approach.

Big difference, though, as you say, between gratuitous abuse of children, as on Teltin, and attempting to quell the massive threat of the Krogan.

No doubt she would prefer a different style. But again, TIM's pressure *could* be seen as a mark of desperate necessity, and "plausible deniability" has its role in politics, even if it's just Cerberus-internal politics here. She wouldn't take credit for something others did, sure, but that's about it. 

I think there's a much bigger distinction there. Miranda would take full responsability for what the organisation does and exert control over it, with the necessary oversight and security measures. That's a massive difference.

TIM's approach may be motivated by sheer stupidity, or by fear, or maybe just recklessness. Or some combination of those things. But nothing about Miranda's personality suggests she would allow the organisation to work that way. She's cautious, careful, precise.

Modifié par flemm, 28 octobre 2011 - 02:31 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
I think there's a much bigger distinction there. Miranda would take full responsability for what the organisation does and exert control over it, with the necessary oversight and security measures. That's a massive difference.

Agreed so far.

TIM's approach may be motivated by sheer stupidity, or by fear, or maybe just recklessness. Or some combination of those things. But nothing about Miranda's personality suggests she would allow the organisation to work that way. She's cautious, careful, precise.

She is that. But what if she'd feel pressed for time? If the enemy was lurking around the next corner and recklessness appeared to be the only way to come to a solution that lets you survive?

[jtav]

I think it's a bit moot since the enemy will be vanquished in ME3. I suspect Miranda as TIW will be careful and deliberate. There goes 90% of all Cerberus atrocities.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
She is that. But what if she'd feel pressed for time? If the enemy was lurking around the next corner and recklessness appeared to be the only way to come to a solution that lets you survive?

I think that type of hypothetical is misleading. There's simply no likely situation where cruel abuse of sentient beings, or conducting scientifically unsound experiments without proper oversight, is going to be what leads to the defeat of the Reapers.

What is much more likely is that paranoia and fear lead individuals to conduct horrific experiments that don't help at all, or just make matters worse.

Ieldra2 wrote...
As I said very much earlier in this thread, what matters for me is her screen presence. If we meet her often, then it doesn't matter as much if she has limited time on the team. And it would make Miranda really be a power on her own.

I can easily imagine a situation where Miranda is leading her own team that I would like even more than her being a squad member. It would involve the same amount of interaction as you would get with the squad, of course. But Miranda leading a rebel band of Cerberus operatives, appearing frequently throughout the game to assist in taking out important objectives, being able to check in with her back at her base periodically for new dialogue options, perhaps even pick up additional resources there, all leading up to the confrontation with TIM.

Would be awesome. Easy to imagine. It's a little harder to imagine it actually being implemented, though. But you never know.

Modifié par flemm, 28 octobre 2011 - 03:45 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
I can easily imagine a situation where Miranda is leading her own team that I would like even more than her being a squad member. It would involve the same amount of interaction as you would get with the squad, of course. But Miranda leading a rebel band of Cerberus operatives, appearing frequently throughout the game to assist in taking out important objectives, being able to check in with her back at her base periodically for new dialogue options, perhaps even pick up additional resources there, all leading up to the confrontation with TIM.

Would be awesome. Easy to imagine. It's a little harder to imagine it actually being implemented, though. But you never know.

I'd get behind this sort of thing in the following scenarios:

Sister Ship: Miranda commands a similar ship (call it the Midway*, keeping the famous battle and classical naming conventions) to Shepard and is never far away, either in the same cluster or a mass relay jump away. They coordinate missions together where ground teams must hit separate objectives simultaneously. If this were a gameplay mechanic it'd be like a type of co-op mode where each player would take command of either the Normandy or the Midway and each would have separate objectives within the same larger mission. Ground teams would work together similar to the Fire Team concepts in the SM (but with more screentime showing the "other" team). Shepard would be able to call up Miranda and talk to her at any time via hologram and at certain points in the game (during brief reprieves in the fight perhaps) could arrange a ship-to-ship randevous where they could be together in person.
Battle Coordinator: Far simpler, this basically plays out like Liara after the Shadow Broker. Miranda's in one base, coordinating teams across the galaxy and is accessible at all times (you can visit the base whenever) with the option to again invite her to the Normandy during quieter periods.
XO: Most obvious example, Miranda's still aboard the Normandy, not part of your squad as in you can't take her into combat but you can chat her up whenever. Can fulfill the Balltle Coordinator role this way as well.

Obvious focus: Accessible at all times.

*Edited on the fine suggestion of nytefyre410

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 28 octobre 2011 - 10:08 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As I said very much earlier in this thread, what matters for me is her screen presence. If we meet her often, then it doesn't matter as much if she has limited time on the team. And it would make Miranda really be a power on her own.

I can easily imagine a situation where Miranda is leading her own team that I would like even more than her being a squad member. It would involve the same amount of interaction as you would get with the squad, of course. But Miranda leading a rebel band of Cerberus operatives, appearing frequently throughout the game to assist in taking out important objectives, being able to check in with her back at her base periodically for new dialogue options, perhaps even pick up additional resources there, all leading up to the confrontation with TIM.

Would be awesome. Easy to imagine. It's a little harder to imagine it actually being implemented, though. But you never know.

That would indeed be awesome. The only problem is what happens if she's dead. I wouldn't mind people missing all that stuff if Miranda's dead and having to do all those missions without any input or assistance, but I doubt Bioware will make any character who can die that important.

Or we might be pleasantly surprised. Heh...who am I fooling? When has that happened last? My favorites always get the backseat or get changed into the more conventional types. At least in TV, in movies and in games. Only books provide the occasional exception. The only hope is that ME3 will have enough characters to keep Miranda from being chickified.   

[jtav]

Here, here Ieldra. I can fix a cameo, but not character derailment.

Ugh, I just had a vision of her being reduced to someone needing rescuing. Ugh.

[The Uncanny]

jtav wrote...

Ugh, I just had a vision of her being reduced to someone needing rescuing. Ugh.

If you ask me to pick the ONE thing I definitely do not want to see... that is it.

[13commander]

Ieldra2 wrote...

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
As I said very much earlier in this thread, what matters for me is her screen presence. If we meet her often, then it doesn't matter as much if she has limited time on the team. And it would make Miranda really be a power on her own.

I can easily imagine a situation where Miranda is leading her own team that I would like even more than her being a squad member. It would involve the same amount of interaction as you would get with the squad, of course. But Miranda leading a rebel band of Cerberus operatives, appearing frequently throughout the game to assist in taking out important objectives, being able to check in with her back at her base periodically for new dialogue options, perhaps even pick up additional resources there, all leading up to the confrontation with TIM.

Would be awesome. Easy to imagine. It's a little harder to imagine it actually being implemented, though. But you never know.

That would indeed be awesome. The only problem is what happens if she's dead. I wouldn't mind people missing all that stuff if Miranda's dead and having to do all those missions without any input or assistance, but I doubt Bioware will make any character who can die that important.

Or we might be pleasantly surprised. Heh...who am I fooling? When has that happened last? My favorites always get the backseat or get changed into the more conventional types. At least in TV, in movies and in games. Only books provide the occasional exception. The only hope is that ME3 will have enough characters to keep Miranda from being chickified.   

Maybe if Miranda is dead in ME3 they can implement something like the SM in piking squad leaders 

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That would indeed be awesome. The only problem is what happens if she's dead.

Well a "support scenario" like I described is actually easier to implement than squad status from a "could be dead" perspective because if she's in the squad, they need to worry about existing relationships between her and everyone, banter etc. In support however, they can pull the Wrex trick and just replace her with Cerberus Random Female Operative 37 who is also disgruntled against Cerberus for some reason. Mission-wise same thing happens, only you don't get the option to call her up whenever and you don't invite her onboard.

That being said I still want permanent squad above all else.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Well a "support scenario" like I described is actually easier to implement than squad status from a "could be dead" perspective because if she's in the squad, they need to worry about existing relationships between her and everyone, banter etc. In support however, they can pull the Wrex trick and just replace her with Cerberus Random Female Operative 37 who is also disgruntled against Cerberus for some reason. Mission-wise same thing happens, only you don't get the option to call her up whenever and you don't invite her onboard.

That being said I still want permanent squad above all else.

I think squad member is actually easier/more likely than some other types of scenarios, just because it's already been done multiples times. It would just be like not opening Grunt's tank, basically, or not recruiting Garrus in ME1. It's not that hard to erase a squad member. It just means the player loses some content that is specific to that character.

That's basically how "might be dead" characters will work in ME3, I think, but with the additional point that you might lose access to however that character contributes to overall "galactic readiness."

Miranda leading her own team would be more complicated. There would have to be a whole bunch of missions that had "Miranda's there" and "Miranda's not there" versions, instead of just one or two. It would be really cool, but it would almost be like developing a new feature specifically for Miranda.

Modifié par flemm, 28 octobre 2011 - 07:26 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Here, here Ieldra. I can fix a cameo, but not character derailment.

Ugh, I just had a vision of her being reduced to someone needing rescuing. Ugh.

I have some hope they'll avoid that. If there's anything all Miranda fans have agreed on from day one, it's that we all like that she's an independently powerful and hypercompetent woman. If they reduce her to "rescue fodder", just there to show how awesome Shepard is, then that's a kick in the face of all her fans.  

Other forms of character derailment are more of a danger, and much less unlikely. Paragonization, for instance. Man, that would be annoying. We already have Ashley for the conventional value system and Tali for Paragon LI, Miranda should be different - even more so, she should be a marked contrast to those two.

I'm really afraid that my pragmatic Renegon Shepard and my neutral pro-human transhumanist Shepard won't get a fitting human LI.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 octobre 2011 - 07:40 .

[CrutchCricket]

flemm wrote...
I think squad member is actually easier/more likely than some other types of scenarios, just because it's already been done multiples times. It would just be like not opening Grunt's tank, basically, or not recruiting Garrus in ME1. It's not that hard to erase a squad member. It just means the player loses some content that is specific to that character.

That's basically how "might be dead" characters will work in ME3, I think, but with the additional point that you might lose access to however that character contributes to overall "galactic readiness."

Miranda leading her own team would be more complicated. There would have to be a whole bunch of missions that had "Miranda's there" and "Miranda's not there" versions, instead of just one or two. It would be really cool, but it would almost be like developing a new feature specifically for Miranda.

Erasing a squad member might not be hard but replacing them would be something else, especially if we are to get more interaction between everyone. I guess that's why I was thinking of Wrex. He's always alive for me but I gather that in games where he died, his brother takes over but Tuchanka plays out pretty much the same otherwise (correct me if I'm wrong).

That's the type of switch I was thinking for the support scenarios. The missions go the same but if you have Miranda you have the "personal contact". I suppose it wouldn't be farfetched to do that for squad either. Still I would hope they're planning for replace scenarios, not erase because erase can imply diminished role.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 28 octobre 2011 - 07:43 .

[jtav]

Oh yes, Paragonization. Eugh. What makes it even more galling is that if you play a pure Renegade, she's your only option. Tali's and Jack's romances can be broken. Miranda's can't. And we already have "charismatic hero redeems fallen woman" with Jack.

[CrutchCricket]

I don't know if I'd call Jack "fallen". "Troubled", "deeply disturbed", "nearly psychotic due to overwhelming childhood trauma", all this I could see. But fallen?
Hell if we agree Cerberus isn't "dark" or "evil" but merely gray and necessary that doesn't really make Miranda fallen either.
Shiala's twice fallen though, so if you save her, now you're playing it straight. But she's not a main character.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
That's the type of switch I was thinking for the support scenarios. The missions go the same but if you have Miranda you have the "personal contact". I suppose it wouldn't be farfetched to do that for squad either. Still I would hope they're planning for replace scenarios, not erase because erase can imply diminished role.

Well, these are all very intriguing aspects of ME3.

In some ways at least, I think having a replacement or stand-in type of character for each squad member diminishes the original characters more. At least it might, depending on how it is handled.

Having certain options (and even certain content) just disappear if a character dies strikes me as the stronger design choice in a lot ways.

The example that comes up a lot around here is Miranda being the only one who can reform and repurpose Cerberus. So, if she dies, you lose that option. You still do all the missions, but you lose out on one possible outcome. Presumably you'd also lose out on at least one Miranda-specific mission along the way.

Or, for Tali, if she dies, one possible outcome of the Quarian/Geth conflict is lost. Vice versa for Legion.

The whole concept of "galactic readiness," which was spoiled in the reveal of MP, is actually the most interesting bit of info we've had about the game in while. I suspect that each squad member will make a substantial contribution to "galactic readiness" that you will lose if they die during the SM. Same for Wrex, probably.

Modifié par flemm, 28 octobre 2011 - 07:56 .

[CrutchCricket]

Hmm... good point flemm. I think we're diverging in focus though. I'm talking about straight-up screen time and interactivity, you're talking about in-story significance. You're right that it would cheapen Miranda's (and any other character's) importance to the story if they just spat out an expy after the original died that'd get you the same level of "readiness". However in terms of screen-time it's easier to cut a character that only has one or two scenes, than one that's in there for half the game. Planning a Wrex-style switch allows you to (at least in theory) give an expendable character more through structure.

I really hope this doesn't lead to a trade-off between the two. Surely Bioware would not be that cruel.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 28 octobre 2011 - 08:04 .

[Yezdigerd]

Aurora313 wrote...

I would also like to point out that I have no problems with people who like Miranda - but may I ask, why do you like her? What qualities, beyond her obvious features, attract you to her character?

For myself, its the fact that Miranda  goes through a little arch. Most others not so much.

I like her scepticism in the beginning, that if she was in charge you would have controlchip in your brain, and is very unimpressed by renegade chestbeating. "I know who I report to".
But gradually she thaws as the results keep coming in. Miranda likes to win and Shepard gives her that. after the loyalty mission she even become grateful and it feels like you actually swayed her loyalty, rather then done a friend a favor like a lot of  loyalty missions. And finally Miranda follows TIM because she believes he is humanitys best advocate, but as the story progress and Shepard clash with TIM I get the feeling that she is actually comparing Shepard and TIM for the title and resignation in the paragon ending is coming full circle.

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...
I guess that's why I was thinking of Wrex. He's always alive for me but I gather that in games where he died, his brother takes over but Tuchanka plays out pretty much the same otherwise (correct me if I'm wrong).

The Wrex-Wreav situation raises my hopes a tiny bit. While Wreav serves the same basic purpose of giving Grunt's and Mordin's LM, the fact that he is a traditionalist makes his clan Urdnot significantly different from Wrex's.
For example after Mordin's LM, Wrex has clan Urdnot adopt the survivors from clan Weyrloc, which included females, while Wreav destroys them all and appropriates their stockpiles. Both strengthen Clan Urdnot, but in very different ways.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...
However in terms of screen-time it's easier to cut a character that only has one or two scenes, than one that's in there for half the game.

Well, I think it depends, really. For example, there are many squad members in ME2 that you have the option to "cut" by simply not recruiting them. Bioware clearly has no qualms making huge amounts of content optional.

So, for example, it's easy to imagine a scenario where Miranda is around for almost the entire game, makes an impact in a specific area or two, but is still easy to "erase" for imported games where she's dead.

It would work like this:

1) "Recruitment" mission. This is where the reunion happens, fairly soon after leaving earth. Either this mission disappears if Miranda died in the SM, or the same basic objective is there, but Miranda isn't.

2) Miranda joins the squad and takes up whatever role she will play on the Normandy. Mission debriefing where Alliance/Cerberus tensions are addressed and Shep has to decide where Miranda fits in the command structure. Chance to roleplay Alliance/Cerberus loyalties.

3) Miranda functions as a normal squad member for the majority of the game.

4) When Lazarus becomes a problem, you get a different version of the related scenes if Miranda is there to help out.

5) At maybe the 80% mark of the game, the confrontation with TIM happens. This is Miranda's big, scripted mission in the game if she is alive, but there is another version of it for games where she's dead. At the end of this mission, you get the culmination of the Cerberus arc and Miranda can repurpose Cerberus assets to fight the Reapers, thus raising your overall "galactic readiness" level. Or you can convince her otherwise, and she stays on the squad, but "galactic readiness" does not improve. Or she leaves at this point, if you insist on destroying the valuable Cerberus assets. Whatever. The point being: various outcomes possible.

That's it, really. Two modified missions and a couple of other modified scenes and you'd end up with a 100% satisfying level of presence and involvement for Miranda that could easily be erased if she dies in the SM. No substitute necessary.

Modifié par flemm, 28 octobre 2011 - 08:24 .

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Hell if we agree Cerberus isn't "dark" or "evil" but merely gray and necessary that doesn't really make Miranda fallen either.

Yes, *we* agree about that. But we aren't the writers. There seems to be some pervasive climate of "Paragon is right" among the writers, else there wouldn't be so much Paragon favoritism. I'm inclined to trust Mac Walters somewhat after ME:Evolution but he's not the only one setting the mood, and there are quite a few fans who would like a "Miranda Redemption plot". I'd hate it beyond all measure of course. Anyway, the decision has almost certainly been made some time ago.